Cleveland is trying to win a championship. Atlanta is not...

[Jody23]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

2017 is a big FA year for us. A lot of money. Edy should be more developed and our owners must spend for a winner, not just to win. This year is simple. Resign Scott and obviously Horford. 

Where are you seeing the Hawks having alot of money?  The cap may rise, but so will player salaries.  If they max Horford and re-sign Bazemore (who will get alot of money), how much will they have to get anyone else?  How are they going to improve the team?

[Guest]

So no thoughts on my proposed new name?  Snidely kinda has a nice ring to it, no?

I mean, this IS the thread about dumb sh*t still, right?

Also, i don't blame him anymore.  It's everyone else's fault for responding.

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

New front office, new owners, yes but you don't change perception of bad management and ownership  of 10 years overnight.  

I think you do.  If you don't believe take a trip to Golden State.   Or take a trip to LAC.  Or take a trip to Houston .  And US.

 

Those teams have shown that you can easily change the perception with management and ownership change and it can happen overnight.   The warriors are three years removed from being called a team that needed to blow it up.  Look at them now.   Darryl in Houston made sweeping changes and now they are in the conversation.  The Clipps changed from a team that spent 20 years in the lottery to being a team that is on the verge in the eyes of many and many free agents.

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Even if Atlanta got on their hands and knees and begged and cried for a top FA to come there, they would just laugh in their face last offseason and the offseason before.

We did.  We begged Millsap to sign and he did.  He turned down all that money in Orlando to be here.

Otherwise, we were handcuffed in free agency.

[Jody23]

14 minutes ago, Diesel said:

We did.  We begged Millsap to sign and he did.  He turned down all that money in Orlando to be here.

Otherwise, we were handcuffed in free agency.

Millsap got the same money here per year which is max.  The only difference is the length of contract.  With ATL, he got an early out so he can get another big deal after next season.  So he didn't actually "turn down all that money" to stay in Atlanta.  His offer from Orlando forced the Hawks to pay him max.

[mtnbayou]

Paul Millsap is

[Diesel]

9 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

Millsap got the same money here per year which is max.  The only difference is the length of contract.  With ATL, he got an early out so he can get another big deal after next season.  So he didn't actually "turn down all that money" to stay in Atlanta.  His offer from Orlando forced the Hawks to pay him max.

I'm sure Orlando would have changed the contract to suit him if they thought it would get him.  Point is that Millsap is the free agent who choose to come to Atlanta.

[BigDog90]

9 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

And THATS why Cleveland swept the Hawks in the playoffs last season.  Cleveland made moves last season to acquire Shumpert and Smith, to overcome the Hawks. They knew they needed perimeter shooting and perimeter defense to do that. Yes, the Hawks FORCED Cleveland to address them. 

 This season, after getting mauled by San Antonio and Golden State, Cleveland fires their head coach and has Mosgov and Love on the trading blocks.    The Hawks get mauled by San Antonio TWICE, and they are doing NOTHING.   Again, you can spread the floor all day long, but if you are not a great shooting team like Golden State, you BETTER be able to rebound, which the Hawks obviously are lacking at.   Cleveland might not beat Golden State in a rematch, but at LEAST they tried to improve their team......

Teams have addressed THEIR shortcomings and made moves to counter what WAS a great Hawks team early last year. Toronto did it. New York did it. The Hawks scared the hell out of the Eastern Conference last year. I hate the fact that THEY will not counter anybody. Another wasted season gonna go down the drain with this bunch.

I heard Cleveland's general manager say its about championships with them. Again, i have YET to hear ANYBODY out of Hawks ownership or front office say anything about winning chips. If they have, they not showing it.

Hawks addressed their shortcomings too. They got Splitter so centers who can score like Mozgov won't go off against them again in the playoffs. Once Korver bounces back the offense will be back to normal. 

[BigDog90]

2 hours ago, Jody23 said:

Where are you seeing the Hawks having alot of money?  The cap may rise, but so will player salaries.  If they max Horford and re-sign Bazemore (who will get alot of money), how much will they have to get anyone else?  How are they going to improve the team?

They won't have a lot of money. Player development is their best bet. Dennis, Hardaway and Edy are going to need to play at a high level long term. 

[Jody23]

1 minute ago, BigDog90 said:

They won't have a lot of money. Player development is their best bet. Dennis, Hardaway and Edy are going to need to play at a high level long term. 

Been there and done that with the "player development", "internal or organic growth" narrative.  The same thing was said when they maxed out Joe and for years after when they had no money and no flexibility.  It was said last year after they weren't expecting to pay Sap the max to retain him and had little space afterward.  I love those guys, but their not elevating this team to the next level.  Ferry taught us that if you don't have a championship contender, you maintain your flexibility until you can get one.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

Been there and done that with the "player development", "internal or organic growth" narrative.  The same thing was said when they maxed out Joe and for years after when they had no money and no flexibility.  It was said last year after they weren't expecting to pay Sap the max to retain him and had little space afterward.  I love those guys, but their not elevating this team to the next level.  Ferry taught us that if you don't have a championship contender, you maintain your flexibility until you can get one.

We've never had a player development program before.

[Jody23]

 

10 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

We've never had a player development program before.

Fair point and I'm sure it's better than the so and so is "working with coaches" thing.  That said, Edy, Dennis and Hardaway can get better but I don't see them as the difference between this and championship status.

[pimp]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I think you do.  If you don't believe take a trip to Golden State.   Or take a trip to LAC.  Or take a trip to Houston .  And US.

 

Those teams have shown that you can easily change the perception with management and ownership change and it can happen overnight.   The warriors are three years removed from being called a team that needed to blow it up.  Look at them now.   Darryl in Houston made sweeping changes and now they are in the conversation.  The Clipps changed from a team that spent 20 years in the lottery to being a team that is on the verge in the eyes of many and many free agents.

 

Did people go to those places because of changes in management,  or did they go there because those teams had players and coaches guys want to play with/for.?
I believe it's the buddy system that works today.
Clippers had to get Doc Rivers to get Paul to stay there, Because Paul wasn't happy playing for Vinny Del Negro. After they got Rivers, Paul didn't meet with any other teams during FA because he wanted to play for Doc.
A lot of guys want to play for Doc , for whatever reason.
Dwight Howard wanted to play with a big time guard. All the Hawks had was Teauge. Most people are going choose to play with Harden over Teague.
The way to get Howard was for him and Paul to come to Atlanta together. Once The Clippers got Doc Rivers , any chances of getting Howard vanished, because we didn't have anyone Howard wanted to buddy up with.
I Believe we would have had a legit chance to get Paul and Howard if the Celtic's didn't give Doc Rivers to the Clippers. I guess we'll never know for sure.
Also,
Look at the Cavs.... Love didn't want to play in Cleveland. He said he wouldn't resign if traded there. Then when the Cavs got Lebron back, Love changed his mine.
Saying that wanted to go to Cleveland and would resign if they traded for him.
If a player can get a similar contrat from 2 or more teams. He's gonna pick to play with whoever has the best combination of a winning and All Star/Superstar players to Buddy up with and form a  "big 3" like the Celtics or big 2 if both guys are Superstars.
If we had Paul , Curry Lebron , Doc ect.... Everyone would wanna play here
It's not where u play. It's who you play with.
So the Hawks are not likely to sign any big name free agents until we have someone that guys are drooling to play with.
People aren't looking to play with Sap Horford , and Teague. No knock against those guys. They just aren't guys that ring chasers are looking to team up with.

[BigDog90]

1 hour ago, Jody23 said:

Been there and done that with the "player development", "internal or organic growth" narrative.  The same thing was said when they maxed out Joe and for years after when they had no money and no flexibility.  It was said last year after they weren't expecting to pay Sap the max to retain him and had little space afterward.  I love those guys, but their not elevating this team to the next level.  Ferry taught us that if you don't have a championship contender, you maintain your flexibility until you can get one.

Ah didn't know that about the Joe thing. Yeah you got a good point. Looking at this Hawks game now, Millsap is this year's MVP for the Hawks. I would have expected Horford to step up since he got can shoot and got a size advantage (at PF) for once but it's basically been Scott doing his thing and getting killed on the boards bad.

[NekiEcko]

It has been a while since I been on and I like to drop some of my opinions about this (doing the school thing and I get the B.S. degree in five weeks) because I can understand everybody frustrations about this.

First of all, I believe the problems is that teams is that stupid and they understand that the way you take away the Hawks machine is stop the Engine (Korver) and the Transmission (Teague and Dennis) and when you have a coach is very stubborn to change the formula, it will be ten times harder to get the same result even if we did still have Demarre here.

I think that the Hawks has to look at the mirror and understand that they are not blessed with stars like Cavs, Spurs, or Warriors, or youth like the Raptors and Hornets and that they have to execute better and changes has to be made.

I don't want to sound like other folks that wants this team to be gutted (that it is the last thing you want to do, when you have the ownership that wants a new place to play) or traded a piece that might make things worst than before (I kinda onboard on trading Horford and Teague to get better pieces) but one must exercise caution and the team has to get back playing like before.

 

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, pimp said:

Did people go to those places because of changes in management,  or did they go there because those teams had players and coaches guys want to play with/for.?
I believe it's the buddy system that works today.
Clippers had to get Doc Rivers to get Paul to stay there, Because Paul wasn't happy playing for Vinny Del Negro. After they got Rivers, Paul didn't meet with any other teams during FA because he wanted to play for Doc.
A lot of guys want to play for Doc , for whatever reason.
Dwight Howard wanted to play with a big time guard. All the Hawks had was Teauge. Most people are going choose to play with Harden over Teague.
The way to get Howard was for him and Paul to come to Atlanta together. Once The Clippers got Doc Rivers , any chances of getting Howard vanished, because we didn't have anyone Howard wanted to buddy up with.
I Believe we would have had a legit chance to get Paul and Howard if the Celtic's didn't give Doc Rivers to the Clippers. I guess we'll never know for sure.
Also,
Look at the Cavs.... Love didn't want to play in Cleveland. He said he wouldn't resign if traded there. Then when the Cavs got Lebron back, Love changed his mine.
Saying that wanted to go to Cleveland and would resign if they traded for him.
If a player can get a similar contrat from 2 or more teams. He's gonna pick to play with whoever has the best combination of a winning and All Star/Superstar players to Buddy up with and form a  "big 3" like the Celtics or big 2 if both guys are Superstars.
If we had Paul , Curry Lebron , Doc ect.... Everyone would wanna play here
It's not where u play. It's who you play with.
So the Hawks are not likely to sign any big name free agents until we have someone that guys are drooling to play with.
People aren't looking to play with Sap Horford , and Teague. No knock against those guys. They just aren't guys that ring chasers are looking to team up with.

Firstly, the Clipps.    When they traded for CP3, they had immediate success.  CP3 did want Doc and guess what, they got him Doc.  The Franchise philosophy changed to suit the players and therefore players wanted to come.   Players saw a correlation of Victory with Blake (rookie allstar) and CP3.

Secondly Dwight.  I think nothing we could have done or offered would have interested Howard to play for us.   We proposed Him and CP3 together here.  He was not coming and so CP3 didn't come.  We could have snagged them before the Clipps got Doc but it was not to be.   The free agency period before, he went to a dysfunctional Laker team instead of wanting to come here for more money.

You said,  "If we had Paul , Curry Lebron , Doc ect.... Everyone would wanna play here."  Our coach is better than Doc.  Now what..

Moreover, you failed to mention GS in all that.   Overnight transformation that they are.

 

 

 

 

[pimp]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Firstly, the Clipps.    When they traded for CP3, they had immediate success.  CP3 did want Doc and guess what, they got him Doc.  The Franchise philosophy changed to suit the players and therefore players wanted to come.   Players saw a correlation of Victory with Blake (rookie allstar) and CP3.

Secondly Dwight.  I think nothing we could have done or offered would have interested Howard to play for us.   We proposed Him and CP3 together here.  He was not coming and so CP3 didn't come.  We could have snagged them before the Clipps got Doc but it was not to be.   The free agency period before, he went to a dysfunctional Laker team instead of wanting to come here for more money.

You said,  "If we had Paul , Curry Lebron , Doc ect.... Everyone would wanna play here."  Our coach is better than Doc.  Now what..

Moreover, you failed to mention GS in all that.   Overnight transformation that they are.

 

 

First you are wtrong about Doc /Paul /Howard

You said we proposed Howard and Paul together..Howard didn't wanna come , so Paul didnt come..
That never even happened
The Clippers got Doc Rivers on Jun 23 2013.... the Free agency period where we can talk to free agents didn't start until July 1.
Paul , said as soon as they got Doc, that  he would resign , and not meet with other teams.
Paul was off the Market before us or anyone else could  talk to him.
That's why i said that we will never know if we could have proposed to get Howard and Paul Together because Doc Rivers ruined  it before we had a chance.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/06/23/doc-rivers-leaves-celtics-become-clippers-coach/W1EUyly4M73Ypjr2VguF8M/story.html
"""The Celtics’ asking price for Rivers had all along been a first-round draft pick, and they weren’t budging on that end. The Clippers, however, had at first refused to offer any compensation for Rivers before later offering a second-round pick.

But the Clippers, who have been urged by point guard Chris Paul to come back to the bargaining throughout this process, have changed their offer.

Paul considers Rivers as his top choice to become the Clippers’ next head coach, and the Clippers’ aim to appease him in an effort to re-sign him this summer when Paul becomes an unrestricted free agent."""

You said said our Coach is better , than Doc. 
Even if that's true. He is not as popular amomg NBA players as Doc Rivers.
This is no secret , Guys want to play for Rivers, it's been that way since 2008 , He was who Paul wanted  and Clipper did what they had to do to
keep Paul happy so that he would. resign. And you know Doc wouldn't have gone there unless he knew Paul was coming back.

As for th Warriors , they  aren't an overnight success.
Drafted Curry #7 2009 , Thompson #11 2011, Green #35 2012 , Barnes  #7 2012 , Ezeli #30 2012
They traded Monta Ellis to the Bucks for Bogut - 2012
The signed Iggy from the Nuggets -2013
Fired Mark Jackson and hire Kerr , who got low balled by the knicks. 2014
The Warriors are a product of great drafting, They drafted 4 out 5 of their starters
they didn't pick any Marvins, Sheldens ,Childresses, Acie Laws, Bebes or Paynes.
They hit homerun after homerun in the draft.
The only notable free agent they signed was Iggy and that was a Millsap like signing

Edited January 24, 2016 by pimp

[Hawkmoor]

12 hours ago, pimp said:

Did people go to those places because of changes in management,  or did they go there because those teams had players and coaches guys want to play with/for.?
I believe it's the buddy system that works today.
Clippers had to get Doc Rivers to get Paul to stay there, Because Paul wasn't happy playing for Vinny Del Negro. After they got Rivers, Paul didn't meet with any other teams during FA because he wanted to play for Doc.
A lot of guys want to play for Doc , for whatever reason.
Dwight Howard wanted to play with a big time guard. All the Hawks had was Teauge. Most people are going choose to play with Harden over Teague.
The way to get Howard was for him and Paul to come to Atlanta together. Once The Clippers got Doc Rivers , any chances of getting Howard vanished, because we didn't have anyone Howard wanted to buddy up with.
I Believe we would have had a legit chance to get Paul and Howard if the Celtic's didn't give Doc Rivers to the Clippers. I guess we'll never know for sure.
Also,
Look at the Cavs.... Love didn't want to play in Cleveland. He said he wouldn't resign if traded there. Then when the Cavs got Lebron back, Love changed his mine.
Saying that wanted to go to Cleveland and would resign if they traded for him.
If a player can get a similar contrat from 2 or more teams. He's gonna pick to play with whoever has the best combination of a winning and All Star/Superstar players to Buddy up with and form a  "big 3" like the Celtics or big 2 if both guys are Superstars.
If we had Paul , Curry Lebron , Doc ect.... Everyone would wanna play here
It's not where u play. It's who you play with.
So the Hawks are not likely to sign any big name free agents until we have someone that guys are drooling to play with.
People aren't looking to play with Sap Horford , and Teague. No knock against those guys. They just aren't guys that ring chasers are looking to team up with.

But dont it start somewhere? You cant tell me that the Hawks are making a SERIOUS effort to get some of these big names. Im not buying YET another excuse.  Money talks, bull crap walks.  The reason players dont come to Atlanta because Atlanta isnt trying to get them and Atlanta isnt trying to win big.

[benhillboy]

Per Bleacher Noel is the top trade chip.  If the Hawks do nothing at the deadline they're broadcasting the white flag.  Someone stated earlier and I agree: Edy ain't it.  We don't have time to be patient with Sap's prime.  

Meanwhile the rich get richer: the Spurs snatch Boban from our Summer League team and have turned him into a fan favorite. His per 36 numbers are 25 and 15. 

[Vol4ever]

I have read 6 pages on this thread and it has been a good debate about the state of the Hawks.   Last night was awful until the 4th qtr, and for some reason they really started to play.  Our offseason besides resigning Sap was a disaster as it has been for many years.   

 

IMO the biggest mistake this franchise has made has been getting rid of Danny Ferry for politically correct reasons.    That being said that is our society today.