Celtics after Teague & Horford

[hylndr11]

WE have to see what Horford does in the playoffs when we have a healthy Thabo whos PER is sneaking up on Baze as his is dropping FAST.  As well as healthy Milsap and Korver if he gets more consistency with his shot.  WE didnt have anyone to gaurd lebron last year and were running on fumes.   I have a feeling Horford goes Bawse mode cuz hes not playing anything like he used to and theres no way Bud and the team are just OK with that for whatever reason Horford has for himself.   BUT none of this matters unless they implement changes to the scheme that the league has clearly figured out

[RedDawg#8]

7 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

I was looking at a Marc Spears article from yesterday on Horford.  In the article, Spears indicates Horford will be seeking the full max which he estimated would be five years, $146 million if it came from the Hawks.  You guys think the Hawks should that?  If they did, it would seem more of a sentimental move imo.

Absolutely not, we would instantly regret it. Think Joe Johnson, we can all agree that he did not deserve the max money we paid. Well Joe actually was the best player on our team and was the given the keys to take us to the promised land because we at some point believed he could be THE guy. That turned out to be incorrect but he at least had the potential to warrant the conversation for max money. Horford on the other hand has never been considered that kind of player. He has never averaged 20ppg and has never averaged 10 rebs. Those are 2 benchmarks when I'm looking at big men and their value. He isn't physically dominating either by height, weight, length, or athleticism. He is quite ordinary across the board from a physical stand point. He has been and will continue to be miscast as a center on our roster with Millsap signed long term so giving him an outrageous contract limits our ability to put an impact guy at that positon or justify limiting he and/or Pauls minutes to fit a true center in his place. (Help us help you Al) Nobody questions his intangibles although his effort has been obviously lacking this year. There just isn't anything you can point to about Al that justifies that kind of money.

 

People think Al has been saving himself all year for his pay day. I think he is trying to play his way out of Atlanta. He is trying to pull a Joe Johnson and saying "I love you guys but youre going to have to pay me MORE than anybody else can (more than I'm truly worth) for me to stay, because if its the same  then I'm out of here".

You have to think, Paul Millsap in less than 3 full seasons has shown more loyalty to us and has twice taken less money than he could have gotten elsewhere to stay with us. He has been our best player all year and a leader and consummate professional. Tell me what Al has done to deserve more years and money than Millsap, and why he is too good to be put the team first considering how far his performance has declined over the years

[Jody23]

11 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Absolutely not, we would instantly regret it. Think Joe Johnson, we can all agree that he did not deserve the max money we paid. Well Joe actually was the best player on our team and was the given the keys to take us to the promised land because we at some point believed he could be THE guy. That turned out to be incorrect but he at least had the potential to warrant the conversation for max money. Horford on the other hand has never been considered that kind of player. He has never averaged 20ppg and has never averaged 10 rebs. Those are 2 benchmarks when I'm looking at big men and their value. He isn't physically dominating either by height, weight, length, or athleticism. He is quite ordinary across the board from a physical stand point. He has been and will continue to be miscast as a center on our roster with Millsap signed long term so giving him an outrageous contract limits our ability to put an impact guy at that positon or justify limiting he and/or Pauls minutes to fit a true center in his place. (Help us help you Al) Nobody questions his intangibles although his effort has been obviously lacking this year. There just isn't anything you can point to about Al that justifies that kind of money.

 

People think Al has been saving himself all year for his pay day. I think he is trying to play his way out of Atlanta. He is trying to pull a Joe Johnson and saying "I love you guys but youre going to have to pay me MORE than anybody else can (more than I'm truly worth) for me to stay, because if its the same  then I'm out of here".

You have to think, Paul Millsap in less than 3 full seasons has shown more loyalty to us and has twice taken less money than he could have gotten elsewhere to stay with us. He has been our best player all year and a leader and consummate professional. Tell me what Al has done to deserve more years and money than Millsap, and why he is too good to be put the team first considering how far his performance has declined over the years

Paul didn't really take less money if you look at it on a per year basis.  Him taking a shorter deal was about him trying to take advantage of the growing salary cap again, not necessarily loyalty to the Hawks.

I do agree that Millsap is clearly the best player and if the Hawks give Horford a full max, you can bet Millsap will opt out after next season (he will anyway) and be seeking a full max deal also. 

[Guest]

Is my preference to sign Al to a full 5 year $146 million max deal - HELL NO!  That's $25mil/$26.8mil/$28.8mil/$31mil/$34mil. (Or something like that). Hope we can do a declining salary structure.

However, my preference would be a 2+1 3 year max deal.

This is not the same as the Joe Johnson deal so please stop it. We won't be hamstrung like it was then.  Yearly Cap figures then rose an average of 2 million. From 2006- 2015 the cap rose from $53mil-$63mil, a difference of $10 mil . It jumped by  $7 mil this past year. The year we signed Joe in 2010  the cap pretty much remained the same which limited what the Hawks could do and the previous ownership also refused to exceed the cap or approach luxury tax territory.  Will new owners be willing?  TBD.

The current cap is $70 mil. The expected rise next year is $89. In 2017 expected $108 mil. (Yes @hawksfanatic, it may not come close). 

Simple math:

If Al's starting salary next season is $25 mil of the projected 2016 cap of $89 mil, that leaves us with $64 million for the remaining players. In 2017 with a projected cap of $108mil and with a 7.5% raise he'll be at $26.8mil, that leaves $81.2mil to fill the roster. So calling this 'a Joe Johnson' hamstrung situation is just not true.

The new CBA is also coming up, meaning they'll probably have another Amnesty Provision so we can "Almnesty"

The trick is to look at what Al's cap % would be in relation to the rising cap number for each of the 5 years he will be signed. 

I am not advocating signing or not signing Al just my attempt to putting the numbers out. (I'm no @hawksfanatic)

 

Edit: @hawksfanatic  If Baze is signed to another 2 year deal with player option in year 2 - will we have Full Bird rights after that year.

Edited February 4, 2016 by JayBirdHawk

[RedDawg#8]

1 hour ago, Jody23 said:

Paul didn't really take less money if you look at it on a per year basis.  Him taking a shorter deal was about him trying to take advantage of the growing salary cap again, not necessarily loyalty to the Hawks.

I do agree that Millsap is clearly the best player and if the Hawks give Horford a full max, you can bet Millsap will opt out after next season (he will anyway) and be seeking a full max deal also. 

The amount was negligible but was about what half a million less? Either way when he came in 2013 he took what was widely considered to be a cheaper deal than what he was worth that off season, the only justification being he was going to play out the 2 year deal and increase his value even more in a system that expanded his game and featured him. He by all accounts accomplished that by having the two best seasons of his career with us. This past offseason I believe he could have waited and gotten an even bigger offer than what Orlando threw out but it just seems like he an his agents are the type of people to get these deals done quickly  and he was signed only days in to free agency. My point is he could have demanded more and didn't. He clearly wanted to be in Atlanta and made it easy on both parties for that to happen.

I hate making Spurs analogies but you never heard about Duncan, Parker, or Ginobali breaking the bank when they were due for huge contracts. They understood the value of team and accepted reasonable deals that reflected their worth, rewarded their contributions, but didn't strap the franchise down. Al can play the money game all he wants, he has every right to as a player, but if he loved this team and wanted to be here he would either lower his asking price or stop coasting through  the season and give us a MAX effort night in and night out. I'm literally talking about 5 more points and 3 more rebounds per game. He could easily get that just by making it an effort to get to the free throw line every night.

My favorite movie quote that relates this "You wanna be a star, you better give me a star effort"

[Jody23]

8 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

The amount was negligible but was about what half a million less? Either way when he came in 2013 he took what was widely considered to be a cheaper deal than what he was worth that off season, the only justification being he was going to play out the 2 year deal and increase his value even more in a system that expanded his game and featured him. He by all accounts accomplished that by having the two best seasons of his career with us. This past offseason I believe he could have waited and gotten an even bigger offer than what Orlando threw out but it just seems like he an his agents are the type of people to get these deals done quickly  and he was signed only days in to free agency. My point is he could have demanded more and didn't. He clearly wanted to be in Atlanta and made it easy on both parties for that to happen.

I hate making Spurs analogies but you never heard about Duncan, Parker, or Ginobali breaking the bank when they were due for huge contracts. They understood the value of team and accepted reasonable deals that reflected their worth, rewarded their contributions, but didn't strap the franchise down. Al can play the money game all he wants, he has every right to as a player, but if he loved this team and wanted to be here he would either lower his asking price or stop coasting through  the season and give us a MAX effort night in and night out. I'm literally talking about 5 more points and 3 more rebounds per game. He could easily get that just by making it an effort to get to the free throw line every night.

My favorite movie quote that relates this "You wanna be a star, you better give me a star effort"

What Orlando offered Millsap was the full max for him (4yrs./80 million). I don't think he could have gotten more under the rules.  The Hawks essentially matched that, but gave him an out after two years to seek a bigger deal.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Edit: @hawksfanatic  If Baze is signed to another 2 year deal with player option in year 2 - will we have Full Bird rights after that year.

Baze gets Bird Rights after one more Season with the Hawks, so yeah.

[QuantumHawkz]

On 2/3/2016 at 9:31 AM, macdaddy said:

So far, we're on 3 Head Coaches and 4 Gms that don't want to put Al at PF full time.   I think that says a lot.   

 

 

That's true. Maybe they thought his game isn't versatile enough to be a PF...or maybe the team is still stuck on the Billy Knight philosophy.... I don't know. What I do know is that if Al would use his quickness and was more aggressive, we wouldn't have this conversation.

[NBASupes]

7 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Is my preference to sign Al to a full 5 year $146 million max deal - HELL NO!  That's $25mil/$26.8mil/$28.8mil/$31mil/$34mil. (Or something like that). Hope we can do a declining salary structure.

However, my preference would be a 2+1 3 year max deal.

This is not the same as the Joe Johnson deal so please stop it. We won't be hamstrung like it was then.  Yearly Cap figures then rose an average of 2 million. From 2006- 2015 the cap rose from $53mil-$63mil, a difference of $10 mil . It jumped by  $7 mil this past year. The year we signed Joe in 2010  the cap pretty much remained the same which limited what the Hawks could do and the previous ownership also refused to exceed the cap or approach luxury tax territory.  Will new owners be willing?  TBD.

The current cap is $70 mil. The expected rise next year is $89. In 2017 expected $108 mil. (Yes @hawksfanatic, it may not come close). 

Simple math:

If Al's starting salary next season is $25 mil of the projected 2016 cap of $89 mil, that leaves us with $64 million for the remaining players. In 2017 with a projected cap of $108mil and with a 7.5% raise he'll be at $26.8mil, that leaves $81.2mil to fill the roster. So calling this 'a Joe Johnson' hamstrung situation is just not true.

The new CBA is also coming up, meaning they'll probably have another Amnesty Provision so we can "Almnesty"

The trick is to look at what Al's cap % would be in relation to the rising cap number for each of the 5 years he will be signed. 

I am not advocating signing or not signing Al just my attempt to putting the numbers out. (I'm no @hawksfanatic)

 

Edit: @hawksfanatic  If Baze is signed to another 2 year deal with player option in year 2 - will we have Full Bird rights after that year.

Al is going to get the max offer as is most players in FA who are great or just very good or even some like Whiteside who are just good. Look at Jordan, he got the max last year in LA. Pay him, he deserves it. He does so much for the franchise. He's worth it like Chipper Jones is worth it. 

[NBASupes]

7 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

The amount was negligible but was about what half a million less? Either way when he came in 2013 he took what was widely considered to be a cheaper deal than what he was worth that off season, the only justification being he was going to play out the 2 year deal and increase his value even more in a system that expanded his game and featured him. He by all accounts accomplished that by having the two best seasons of his career with us. This past offseason I believe he could have waited and gotten an even bigger offer than what Orlando threw out but it just seems like he an his agents are the type of people to get these deals done quickly  and he was signed only days in to free agency. My point is he could have demanded more and didn't. He clearly wanted to be in Atlanta and made it easy on both parties for that to happen.

I hate making Spurs analogies but you never heard about Duncan, Parker, or Ginobali breaking the bank when they were due for huge contracts. They understood the value of team and accepted reasonable deals that reflected their worth, rewarded their contributions, but didn't strap the franchise down. Al can play the money game all he wants, he has every right to as a player, but if he loved this team and wanted to be here he would either lower his asking price or stop coasting through  the season and give us a MAX effort night in and night out. I'm literally talking about 5 more points and 3 more rebounds per game. He could easily get that just by making it an effort to get to the free throw line every night.

My favorite movie quote that relates this "You wanna be a star, you better give me a star effort"

The Spurs are a rare breed and even now, guys like LMA and Leonard took max. That taking less for the team is a thing of the past. 

[Diesel]

13 hours ago, Jody23 said:

Paul didn't really take less money if you look at it on a per year basis.  Him taking a shorter deal was about him trying to take advantage of the growing salary cap again, not necessarily loyalty to the Hawks.

I do agree that Millsap is clearly the best player and if the Hawks give Horford a full max, you can bet Millsap will opt out after next season (he will anyway) and be seeking a full max deal also. 

Everytime I hear this BS argument, I shake my head.  first off, shorter deal is a shorter deal, there is no money guaranteed from it.  There is a whole slew of things that can happen... so there was some loyalty to us and he bet on himself by taking the shorter deal.  Moreover, you act as if a longer deal would not have had an opt out in it or that one could not have been negotiated.  Wouldn't that have been better?

 

[Jody23]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

Everytime I hear this BS argument, I shake my head.  first off, shorter deal is a shorter deal, there is no money guaranteed from it.  There is a whole slew of things that can happen... so there was some loyalty to us and he bet on himself by taking the shorter deal.  Moreover, you act as if a longer deal would not have had an opt out in it or that one could not have been negotiated.  Wouldn't that have been better?

 

No BS.  It's what actually happened.  If you want to believe he took less money because the Hawks were so special, go ahead.  Done.

[Diesel]

Just now, Jody23 said:

No BS.  It's what actually happened.  If you want to believe he took less money because the Hawks were so special, go ahead.  Done.

Again, avoiding the point.  Like i said, the money after the opt out is not guaranteed.  There are a whole lot of adverse things that can happen.   Moreover, he could have negotiated that same opt out with the longer deal.   Ask Orlando if they would have given him the same opt out?  The truth is that he probably saw more of a future with us than elsewhere and there was probably some loyalty too..Sheez, we built a 70 foot statue of him... you don't think that makes him a little loyal?

 

[AHF]

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

The Spurs are a rare breed and even now, guys like LMA and Leonard took max. That taking less for the team is a thing of the past. 

It's not about past or future.  Some will do it and some won't.  It is about priorities.