Spinoff thread (topic too long so look inside)

[Lurker]

If you're in the keep Jeff Teague and extend him to another contract camp, then give me a specific way to try to improve the team, while KNOWING that you are not going to get much in a trade for Dennis Schröder and knowing that you want to keep Al Horford and Paul Millsap.

I got nothin' to be honest with you unless it involves stuff that has NEVER happened with this team. SF can be improved by signing just any old 6'8" player that can defend and learn how to shoot threes at a solid clip, but we've already seen the script of the story with that (if we go back to THAT, this team would be a 55-56 win team, but still have a ceiling of ECF then out).

Probably a better offseason topic, but still would like to see some opinions.

[JTB]

17 minutes ago, Lurker said:

If you're in the keep Jeff Teague and extend him to another contract camp, then give me a specific way to try to improve the team, while KNOWING that you are not going to get much in a trade for Dennis Schröder and knowing that you want to keep Al Horford and Paul Millsap.

I got nothin' to be honest with you unless it involves stuff that has NEVER happened with this team. SF can be improved by signing just any old 6'8" player that can defend and learn how to shoot threes at a solid clip, but we've already seen the script of the story with that (if we go back to THAT, this team would be a 55-56 win team, but still have a ceiling of ECF then out).

Probably a better offseason topic, but still would like to see some opinions.

You're just basically admitting that we need a star! ....simple as that.

lets say we pick up batum and maybe Noah and then resign horford and actually get Bazemore to resign.

Ok so now we have taken care of all of the complaints around here. Rim protection, rebounds, a SF with actual size who can score, defend, rebound at a good rate and knock down the 3!....Perfect! So championship right?

NO......because we still don't have a true difference maker! Like @NBASupes said in another thread we need star named durant or really any star before we can start actually having championship talk. Sure Bud can get us to the ECF again and with certain pickups from free agency of non star players like Batum we could probably have a great not good but great overall team like the Warriors but without a star player.

NBA history shows us....No star = No championship

At this point it's almost as if we shouldn't waste time trying to improve this current team if we can't get a star to go along with them but that's just me being irritated knowing we don't actually have a chance to win it all right now though we arguably have the best overall team in the east like last year.

[Diesel]

This is the offseason.

I believe that we have several good pieces right now.  Let's wait to see how the playoffs turn out but...

Keep Horf... Keep Teague... Keep Baze (reasonably).

There are a couple of Free Agents that we should look at this year Harrison Barnes, Nicolas Batum, and Chandler Parsons.  While I don't really think that Parsons fit what we do, I do love the other two.    I also love... Tim Hardaway Jr.   I think that he's making his way and Thabo is a great bench player.

To our vet team, I say that we build like we been building...  I would look to get a big in the draft.  Either Damian Jones or Henry Ellenson (if he falls). I would also like to see how Edy is progressing.   Edy will never be a C like Horf but i don't think that's all bad.

People think the fight is between Teague and  Schro.  I don't see that as a fight.  We really go with Teague playing.  I think Schro is a great backup and we don't loose tempo when he comes in.

The real fight will be between Baze and THJr.  I think THJr is going to be offensively better.   Baze is something different though.   Maybe Baze can facilitate the SNT for Harrison Barnes.   If we get Barnes or Batum, KK will be coming off the bench.

There's one other player that gets my attention in free agency is Teletovic.   I think that his shooting will pair well with our team.. So if we struck out with HB and NB, then Teletovic is a guy who I could see the analytics guys favoring.  I would also take a cheap look at Mozgov.   Just a cheap look.  Guys like him and Hibbert don't fit too much into this NBA but with our rebounding problems, it would be nice to bring in a defensive rebounder.

 

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, JTB said:

NO......because we still don't have a true difference maker! Like @NBASupes said in another thread we need star named durant or really any star before we can start actually having championship talk. Sure Bud can get us to the ECF again and with certain pickups from free agency of non star players like Batum we could probably have a great not good but great overall team like the Warriors but without a star player.

NBA history shows us....No star = No championship

 

You win the championship and the league will make Stars.   ..i.e. Detroit Pistons.    The point is that you don't have to have a star.   It's been the Stern Doctorine that Starless teams don't prosper, but that's where we come in.   I think like those Piston's we can make the League count us in.  I guarantee if we won the championship this year, the League would recognize either Teague or Millsap.   Sap has the Allstar appearances to warrant it.  Moreover, last year, GS had stars but when it came down to calling a final's MVP, they almost made Lebron the MVP of the finals.   It's a team sport.

 

[NBASupes]

4 hours ago, JTB said:

You're just basically admitting that we need a star! ....simple as that.

lets say we pick up batum and maybe Noah and then resign horford and actually get Bazemore to resign.

Ok so now we have taken care of all of the complaints around here. Rim protection, rebounds, a SF with actual size who can score, defend, rebound at a good rate and knock down the 3!....Perfect! So championship right?

NO......because we still don't have a true difference maker! Like @NBASupes said in another thread we need star named durant or really any star before we can start actually having championship talk. Sure Bud can get us to the ECF again and with certain pickups from free agency of non star players like Batum we could probably have a great not good but great overall team like the Warriors but without a star player.

NBA history shows us....No star = No championship

At this point it's almost as if we shouldn't waste time trying to improve this current team if we can't get a star to go along with them but that's just me being irritated knowing we don't actually have a chance to win it all right now though we arguably have the best overall team in the east like last year.

I didn't say that was the only way, I said getting him would solve all of our issues. There are numerous ways to the chip but we 

[NBASupes]

need to make a solid move. 

[JTB]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

You win the championship and the league will make Stars.   ..i.e. Detroit Pistons.    The point is that you don't have to have a star.   It's been the Stern Doctorine that Starless teams don't prosper, but that's where we come in.   I think like those Piston's we can make the League count us in.  I guarantee if we won the championship this year, the League would recognize either Teague or Millsap.   Sap has the Allstar appearances to warrant it.  Moreover, last year, GS had stars but when it came down to calling a final's MVP, they almost made Lebron the MVP of the finals.   It's a team sport.

 

None of that is true! Please stop feeding that B.S. to our fan base! No one from the 2004 Detroit Pistons team were stars they literally were a group of all star players...not superstars on the level of the currys, lebrons, kobes, Jordans of the NBA

I preach for a star because history shows that there's a star player on 98% of the NBA champions that have won and they weren't stars after they won they were already star players before they won... that's another fact.

This is the problem with this fan base believing you can win without a damn star. Or maybe it's just a problem on the squawk...fans would crowd Philips arena every season like last year if they truly thought we could win a championship but fans no we aren't going anywhere without a star player to lead the way.

last year fans only show up cause we had a historic season but unless history is being made fans in Atlanta aren't coming out nightly until the playoffs.

STARS ARE BORN BEFORE CHAMPIONSHIPS.....FACT

[JTB]

23 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

need to make a solid move. 

There's plenty of solid moves that can be made and the Hawks still probably won't get past a cavs Big 3 team. 

So you think adding Batum and maybe upgrading korvers position to put him on the bench then we win a championship?

If I'm not mistaken you like Ben Mclmore...right?

So take Mclemore and Batum....add them to the team we have now...tell me in detail... Why that team wins a championship next season?

[NBASupes]

McLemore ain't even close to passing the grade even for a 2nd rounder. The time to rebuild him past. He is going into this last year. Not enough time. 

[Atlantaholic]

I love Jeff Teague, when he is healthy and aggressive he is a legitimate star in this league. However, whether it is a good idea to keep him or not depends solely on how much Schröder develops next season, and how much the front office believes in him. If he shows he can be a consistent shooter and floor general, then we will have no choice but to move on from Teague and go all in on Schröder. If Schröder continues to be his inconsistent self and doesn't show marked improvement, then maybe we need to think about trading him before the deadline and rolling with Teague for the next 3-4 years. The odds that both stay past the end of next season are almost none IMO. 

Also, I don't believe a ceiling of 55-56 wins is that bad considering it would put us in the fight for the #1 seed. Not the worst idea in the world to keep this core together and see what they can do once Lebron starts to inevitably decline in the following years. Dude will have played over 1100 games by the end of 2017, so it's a safe bet 55-56 wins is close to Cleveland's ceiling too.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Atlantaholic

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, JTB said:

None of that is true! Please stop feeding that B.S. to our fan base! No one from the 2004 Detroit Pistons team were stars they literally were a group of all star players...not superstars on the level of the currys, lebrons, kobes, Jordans of the NBA

I agree that the Pistons wasn't stars.. they were Allstars and Like I said, when you win, the League will create a star for your team.  Look at what happened last year.  When we were killing it in the regular season, all the sudden we got 4 allstars bids..  Whaddoyacallthat?  I call it the League searching for the star in Atlanta.   Moreover, all of our guys are household names.    It's funny watching TNT and seeing Scott and Shaq call Horf Bawse!!  But the games are won on the floor.   It's a lot to overcome star power, but it certainly can be done.

So winning a championship without a star is possible.

 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

I agree that the Pistons wasn't stars.. they were Allstars and Like I said, when you win, the League will create a star for your team.  Look at what happened last year.  When we were killing it in the regular season, all the sudden we got 4 allstars bids..  Whaddoyacallthat?  I call it the League searching for the star in Atlanta.   Moreover, all of our guys are household names.    It's funny watching TNT and seeing Scott and Shaq call Horf Bawse!!  But the games are won on the floor.   It's a lot to overcome star power, but it certainly can be done.

So winning a championship without a star is possible.

 

It is.  It has happened twice in NBA history.  So you are bucking the odds if you try to go it without that MVP caliber star but it has been done so every Memphis Grizzlies, Atlanta Hawks, Charlotte Hornets, and other collection of borderline All-Star talents can keep dreaming of that ring and once every 20 years or so it will happen.

[CrazyEye]

I am with diesel, i believe the succes would alter the perception of the players. So if we win now, and look back in 10 we wouldn't think of a star less team but would say they had Sap ...

On the other hand i see some trends, who kill the importance of the stars a bit:

1. In the past you had to defend man to man, which values player more which you barely stop in one on one.

2. The 3 point shot get more importance, and getting a bunch of player out who can score after an catch and shot is a good way to get a high percentage. Sure curry and thompson are the first stars, who kill defence through "unlimited" range, and get those 3 in one and one situation but still most of the 3 are the result of other players creating.

3. Superstars had mostly a very good price performance ration, since many players deserve a max contract but the few superstars was significant better then other max players. Today it is trending that most succesful teams, had very good player and often stars asking for fewer money to cheat the cap system. Having an superstar really helps to get those player,  but building a team with a good price perfrormance ration might work with allstars too, if they understand well with each other and are believing into the staff/project. So if we stay succesfull around 50 wins each season, you could build also those trust for fa and the current allstars to make such a step.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

It is.  It has happened twice in NBA history.  So you are bucking the odds if you try to go it without that MVP caliber star but it has been done so every Memphis Grizzlies, Atlanta Hawks, Charlotte Hornets, and other collection of borderline All-Star talents can keep dreaming of that ring and once every 20 years or so it will happen.

BINGO!

Some out there think we can basically be the next team full of all stars when honestly there's always teams full of all stars in every era/decade that just don't it up winning.

Take the early 2000s Sacramento Kings for example....they had 4 or 5 all star talented players but they were never going to beat Kobe and Shaq while they were in their prime...maybe not the best example considering some at that time would consider Webber an superstar talent which I can't argue but you get my point.

All star teams are great but they need that superstar player to push them over the top. If Boston or the Hawks could get durant....lebron would be in huge trouble in the east 

but right now east gms just let lebron coast to the finals every year with very little challenge from his east opponents.

[bumpyphish1]

On 4/9/2016 at 0:37 PM, Lurker said:

If you're in the keep Jeff Teague and extend him to another contract camp, then give me a specific way to try to improve the team, while KNOWING that you are not going to get much in a trade for Dennis Schröder and knowing that you want to keep Al Horford and Paul Millsap.

I got nothin' to be honest with you unless it involves stuff that has NEVER happened with this team. SF can be improved by signing just any old 6'8" player that can defend and learn how to shoot threes at a solid clip, but we've already seen the script of the story with that (if we go back to THAT, this team would be a 55-56 win team, but still have a ceiling of ECF then out).

Probably a better offseason topic, but still would like to see some opinions.

Why would you throw in the stipulation "KNOWING that you are not going to get much in a trade for Dennis Schröder" ???   That's just silly.  Dennis is easily worth a top ten pick...maybe top 5 depending on the draft class.  I am, however, in favor of keeping Dennis and trying to trade Teague this offseason, perhaps on draft night.  We can't afford to keep both and if we could, it's not efficient allocation of resources unless both could play 30+mpg--they can't.

On 4/9/2016 at 1:19 PM, Diesel said:

This is the offseason.

I believe that we have several good pieces right now.  Let's wait to see how the playoffs turn out but...

Keep Horf... Keep Teague... Keep Baze (reasonably).

There are a couple of Free Agents that we should look at this year Harrison Barnes, Nicolas Batum, and Chandler Parsons.  While I don't really think that Parsons fit what we do, I do love the other two.    I also love... Tim Hardaway Jr.   I think that he's making his way and Thabo is a great bench player.

To our vet team, I say that we build like we been building...  I would look to get a big in the draft.  Either Damian Jones or Henry Ellenson (if he falls). I would also like to see how Edy is progressing.   Edy will never be a C like Horf but i don't think that's all bad.

People think the fight is between Teague and  Schro.  I don't see that as a fight.  We really go with Teague playing.  I think Schro is a great backup and we don't loose tempo when he comes in.

The real fight will be between Baze and THJr.  I think THJr is going to be offensively better.   Baze is something different though.   Maybe Baze can facilitate the SNT for Harrison Barnes.   If we get Barnes or Batum, KK will be coming off the bench.

There's one other player that gets my attention in free agency is Teletovic.   I think that his shooting will pair well with our team.. So if we struck out with HB and NB, then Teletovic is a guy who I could see the analytics guys favoring.  I would also take a cheap look at Mozgov.   Just a cheap look.  Guys like him and Hibbert don't fit too much into this NBA but with our rebounding problems, it would be nice to bring in a defensive rebounder.

 

"People think the fight is between Teague and  Schro.  I don't see that as a fight."

Gee, maybe that's because Vivlamore and several others MUCH CLOSER TO THIS TEAM THAN YOU have reported as much.  Hell, Dennis has said as much.  He wants to be a starter NOW.  He's good enough to be one NOW.  He may not be better than Teague is now but he may be almost as good.  After a full season as the starter, he may be better.  He certainly will be better at age 27 than Teague is....and it won't be close.

Why are the most frequent posters usually the least insightful?

[Lurker]

11 hours ago, bumpyphish1 said:

"KNOWING that you are not going to get much in a trade for Dennis Schröder" ???

You aren't if what has been rumored from Philly is true.  It's rumored that Philly was offering the OKC/Heat pick, Ish Smith, and Nik Stauskas for him and that was close to the best offer, if not the best.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

For those wanting to follow the 2004 Detroit model, understand that they won because they were arguably the best defensive team in NBA history.

Even with that, Detroit also possessed players who could hit big shots at the end of games ( Billups, Hamilton, and Rasheed Wallace every blue moon ).  

And the question all year with the Hawks has been "who will and can make big shots at the end of games?" Someone on this roster will have to step up and make those types of shots. 

That's the only way that teams without an offensive superstar can win a title.

 

[Atlantaholic]

It's clear that Teague and Schröder are in each other's way. I don't buy that there is a rift per say, but it is clear to everyone that when Teague is going, Schro is getting less PT, and vice-versa. The two PG lineup would have been a solution, but Bud has done his best to give it a chance and it just doesn't work. PG is a position that is based off of finding a groove and a feel for the game and requires extended minutes. The comittee approach is not really ideal, unless one of the two PGs can slide over and play some minutes at the two.  

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

24 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

It's clear that Teague and Schröder are in each other's way. I don't buy that there is a rift per say, but it is clear to everyone that when Teague is going, Schro is getting less PT, and vice-versa. The two PG lineup would have been a solution, but Bud has done his best to give it a chance and it just doesn't work. PG is a position that is based off of finding a groove and a feel for the game and requires extended minutes. The comittee approach is not really ideal, unless one of the two PGs can slide over and play some minutes at the two.  

 

PG - Teague ( 18 ) - Schröder ( 30 )

G - Shooting guards ( 34 ) - Teague ( 14 )

Could the Hawks survive with Teague and Dennis starting each half together, and closing a game together?

6 minutes start of the 1st qtr ... 6 minutes start of the 3rd qtr ... last 2 minutes of the 4th quarter.

That's what would have to happen, if we kept both.

It's similar to the Curry - Monta Ellis situation.  Both were talented enough to play, but for it to work, they needed to be able to play together. 

They decide to trade Monta for a defensive/rebounding center in Bogut.  This also elevates Klay Thompson, a much bigger SG, into the starter's role.

Then they snag Iggy in free agency, and the rest is history.

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by TheNorthCydeRises

[TheNorthCydeRises]

As for the Teague vs Dennis debate, I still say that one of them will probably have to go, because they can't play together, and Dennis will want more PT. 

Dennis could help himself tremendously by having a great playoff run.  That would up his trade value and make the Hawks really think about which one to keep.

Honestly, it's kind of nice to not be too worried about the PG position for the next 3 - 5 years, regardless who we keep.  It took us 7 years just to find a guy who was even on Jason Terry's level.