If Kyle Korver still starts, here's how it's OK

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, cowa said:

Well, when I look at THJr's regular season, his minutes/game and his DNPs by month are like this:

• Oct - 0.0, 3 DNP
• Nov - 11.0, 12 DNP
• Dec - 0.0, 14 DNP
• Jan - 15.4, 1 DNP (1st game of Jan)
• Feb - 17.5, 0 DNP
• Mar - 19.6, 0 DNP
• Apr - 16.3, 0 DNP

And yes, he was benched for a lot of the Cavs series, but we're not talking about playoffs here.  We're talking about regular season rotational minutes for each player.  And clearly, looking at the minutes spread above for last year, THJr was a rotational player who Bud thought enough of that he gave him significant minutes.  I know there were injuries to other players as well, but it still shows the confidence that Bud has in him once he learned the defensive schemes.

I am not a THJr lover and feel that Prince and/or Bembry would be better suited for those minutes, but this is about Bud and I have a hard time believing that Prince and Bembry were brought on to totally replace THJr's minutes during the regular season.  I honestly feel they were brought on to replace Thabo and possibly Korver in 2017-18.  For this year, garbage time for a while and then their roles expand like THJr's did this past year.  I hope I'm wrong.

Bud thought THJr was so unprepared for the season that he was actually playing Holiday and Patterson over THJr.  Our wings were as bad as I can ever remember them last season - we had terrible options.  I agree that THJr became a part of the rotation but we had Thabo and Korver coming off of surgery, Bazemore stepping up and then a poo poo patter of wing crappiness.  None of that indicates that he "loves" THJr to me.  The fact that we drafted Bembry and Prince tells me that Bud was highly dissatisfied with his depth at the wing position for the present and/or future.  That was the right call to make if you see good players available.  

The reason the playoff series is instructive is because Korver was terrible against Cleveland.  Completely neutralized.  If Bud loved and trusted THJr, he would have played.  Instead, THJr was terrible in the playoffs and Bud did not trust him at all to be on the floor and so instead forcefed minutes to Korver when Korver clearly should have been getting more time on the bench and not less.

Now for this season, I do think THJr should have a regular role in the rotation.  At 24 years old and with over 4400 minutes of NBA experience, he better be able to contribute 15 minutes per game and not rack up DNP-CDs.

[Guest]

Didn't THjr have an injury to start the playoffs? 

I would summise that Bembry and Prince are the Kyle and Thabo replacements.

[RedDawg#8]

I agree with so much of what is being said here.

 Kyle is no longer (never really was) a starting caliber player. He has been able to start for us these past 4 years because honestly, we haven't had any real talent on the wing to supplant him and guess what, it has continued to haunt us just as much as our lack of rebounding. Kyle Korver IS a one dimensional shooter and the league has caught on to our tricks and strategies to get him open and it just doesn't work anymore.

Our team is in transistion. People need to let go of the idea that we are just going to fill the same roles over and over each year. Teague, DMC, and now Horford are all gone. Pero Antic, gone, Shelvin Mack, gone, Brand, gone, There are no players left from the pre Danny Ferry-era. Kyle and Mike Scott are the longest tenured Hawks and both are probably not in the long term plans for our franchise.

Its time to move on from all the feel good, gimmicky, fan favorite BS and build a real contender. Kyle Korver can be a key piece to a contender a la Richard Jefferson or Leandro Barbosa. He can provide quality veteran play in limited minutes. But we have to stop believing that we NEED him on the floor  every night cause we don't. If the matchup is right then by all means. But against the Cavs who hold the key to the eastern conference and other teams with big athletic wings Kyle becomes obsolete plain and simple. Bazemore got the contract, we know he is going to start. Korver alongside him limits Bazemores effectiveness as neither are true ball handlers or true Small Forwards.

Kyle off the bench doesn't mean he cant still help us just like bringing Thabo off the bench didn't mean he couldn't come in to the game and reak havoc. Its time to switch things up and alter our "perceived" identity. We can field one of the most athletic and dominating defensive starting units. That's more exciting to me than watching us spend 30 minutes a game trying get Kyle open shots so he can average his 9 stinking points. For 30 mins and 9 points Id much rather watch Thabo completely destroy opposing offenses with his steals, blocks, and defensive mastery,

 

 

[Jody23]

I honestly think Kyle coming off the bench makes it easier for him to remain effective and can extend his career a little.  The way Bud subs, he'll still get time on the floor with other starters. 

[RandomFan]

3 hours ago, cowa said:

I am not a THJr lover and feel that Prince and/or Bembry would be better suited for those minutes, but this is about Bud and I have a hard time believing that Prince and Bembry were brought on to totally replace THJr's minutes during the regular season.  I honestly feel they were brought on to replace Thabo and possibly Korver in 2017-18.  For this year, garbage time for a while and then their roles expand like THJr's did this past year.

Eggzatcly. That's how I see Bud handling the situation too. And you never know how injuries will speed up the plan at any minute. I do think Prince is more likely to work himself into the rotation early, as opposed to Bembry. We've consistently ran with a 4 man wing rotation - but Bud is always slipping a 5th guy into the mix by giving one of the top 4 guys a night off here and there, or just flat out benching one of them for weeks at a time while he takes a look at another player that was previously out of the rotation. I can see that happening more often this year with legitimate 5th and 6th options in Prince and Bembry that will need to get some looks over the course of the season.

But the bread and butter top 4 will most likely still be Baze, Korver, Thabo, and Hardaway.

10 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

I honestly think Kyle coming off the bench makes it easier for him to remain effective and can extend his career a little.  The way Bud subs, he'll still get time on the floor with other starters. 

I agree. I'm just not sure if Bud is ready to do that this year yet, or if that will come next year. I think it depends on how much growth happens for Hardaway this offseason; or to a lesser extent if Prince is ready to step into the 4-deep at the start of the season ahead of Hardaway(which I don't really expect to happen, but wouldn't be shocked if it did).

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by RandomFan

[AHF]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Didn't THjr have an injury to start the playoffs? 

I would summise that Bembry and Prince are the Kyle and Thabo replacements.

I'm sure everyone was beat up to some extent.  He played normal minutes in games 2, 5, 6 and 8 so I am skeptical it was that big of an injury.  He just played like crap shooting 26.9% from the field over the course of the playoffs and that forced Bud to lean heavier and heavier on Korver even when Korver was obviously getting crushed by Cleveland's defensive attention.  Korver didn't get those minutes because Bud loves him or because he was amazing (he was fine against Boston - not against Cleveland).  He got them because Bud had no alternatives.  Bud was so desperate he gave Kirk and Patterson a few minutes to try and shake things up.  He had Thabo, Baze, and Korver and that was it on the wing.  He didn't trust the others.

[Jody23]

32 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

 

I agree. I'm just not sure if Bud is ready to do that this year yet, or if that will come next year. I think it depends on how much growth happens for Hardaway this offseason; or to a lesser extent if Prince is ready to step into the 4-deep at the start of the season ahead of Hardaway(which I don't really expect to happen, but wouldn't be shocked if it did).

 

I'm thinking Bud will surprise us here as he now has two small forwards on the roster instead of one like last year which was a reason we saw Bazemore playing alot of small foward.  I see Prince competing with Thabo for the starting job and he has a real chance with his ability to stretch the floor.  Additionally, I just don't see the Hawks signing Bazemore to that kind of deal while continuing to play him out of position if there is no need to.  I also think Bembry will compete with Hardaway Jr. for minutes behind Bazemore and Korver.

Edited July 13, 2016 by Jody23

[RandomFan]

47 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

I'm thinking Bud will surprise us here as he now has two small forwards on the roster instead of one like last year which was a reason we saw Bazemore playing alot of small foward.  I see Prince competing with Thabo for the starting job and he has a real chance with his ability to stretch the floor.  Additionally, I just don't see the Hawks signing Bazemore to that kind of deal while continuing to play him out of position if there is no need to.  I also think Bembry will compete with Hardaway Jr. for minutes behind Bazemore and Korver.

The biggest problem with your theory is that Thabo isn't competing with anyone to be a starter at this point. He didn't start his last season in OKC, he hasn't started his 2 seasons here. He's 32 years old and isn't getting any younger - his starting days are behind him, barring an injury emergency. Hopefully his offense will be better this season after getting a full offseason this year, unlike last year when he was recoverying from the NYPD leg fiasco, but he still isn't starting material anymore. 

So what you're really saying is you think Prince is going to come out of the gates as a rookie and start at SF, which would push one of Korver, Thabo, or Hardaway out of the rotation and to the bench. And that is possible if one of a few things happen. First, Prince would have to prove he's ready for the job, and as we've seen with Bud in the past he is reluctant to trust players until they prove they are ready. And if he does somehow prove to Bud he's ready, then he's also got to beat out one of the other 4 players ahead of him.

Which means one of the following would need to happen:

1) Hardaway would have to flop and not make the big jump players usually take in the 2nd year of our program. This is possible, and if Prince starts early, this would be the most likely reason why. But I think it's highly probable that Hardaway makes not only a big jump, but a huge jump for us this year. We'll find out during the season I guess.

2) OR Thabo would have to fall off a cliff and fall out of the rotation. At his age, this is possible, especially offensively. But he's such a phenomenal defender he would almost have to turn into a black hole on offense to keep him out of the rotation for at least one more year. It's possible though.

3) OR Korver at 35 years old falls off a cliff and can't shoot the 3 at a high rate any more - which would pretty much make him useless in the rotation. This could also happen, but I tend to think that with a full offseason to get his body right and work on his shot that we are going to see something closer to the 2014 Korver than the Korver from last year.

4) OR one of those 3 suffers a major injury before the season or early in the season. That would obviously bump the next man up in the rotation, which will most likely be Prince.

But yeah, if any of those 4 things happen then Prince could find himself in the 4-man wing rotation right off the bat. I just don't think any of those first three things are likely to happen, and the fourth one there is no control over.

As others have suggested, I think Prince and Bembry are viewed more as 2017 Korver and Thabo replacements, that will both get their feet wet some during the season.

54 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm sure everyone was beat up to some extent.  He played normal minutes in games 2, 5, 6 and 8 so I am skeptical it was that big of an injury.  He just played like crap shooting 26.9% from the field over the course of the playoffs and that forced Bud to lean heavier and heavier on Korver even when Korver was obviously getting crushed by Cleveland's defensive attention.  Korver didn't get those minutes because Bud loves him or because he was amazing (he was fine against Boston - not against Cleveland).  He got them because Bud had no alternatives.  Bud was so desperate he gave Kirk and Patterson a few minutes to try and shake things up.  He had Thabo, Baze, and Korver and that was it on the wing.  He didn't trust the others.

We've also got to keep in mind it was Hardaway's first ever playoff experience. I don't know if that played a role or not, but it's possible. It could also just be Hardaway went into a shooting slump at the worst possible time and Bud realized he couldn't put him in the games.

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by RandomFan

[Lurker]

The GOAL starting lineup by midway through the starting lineup has to be Schröder/Bazemore/Prince/Millsap/Howard, it has to. You can’t roll into another playoffs with Kyle Korver as a starter as it’s not gonna fly, which means he'll just end up on the bench again eventually and we'll see a lineup playing that doesn't have as much chemistry. I suspect his shot rebounds but he’s not a starter unless he is shooting around 50% from three.

And Hardaway Jr is not a small forward, so you automatically shift to looking at Prince.

[IheartVolt]

Bembry most likely will not be on the roster period. He is d-league fodder at this point. All of you act like he is a gurateed roster spot. Let the kid win his way on first. Likewise with Prince. No one knows how things will shake out in the end

[Lurker]

Just now, IheartVolt said:

Bembry most likely will not be on the roster period. He is d-league fodder at this point. All of you act like he is a gurateed roster spot. Let the kid win his way on first. Likewise with Prince. No one knows how things will shake out in the end

If he's not on the roster, even if it's just as an "inactive", you lose him.

[IheartVolt]

Just now, Lurker said:

If he's not on the roster, even if it's just as an "inactive", you lose him.

Not the point.. Its all just speculation at this point. Let Prince go thru training sessions before we crown him "starting sf" 

As for Bembry you are correct. But that does not change that D-league is written all over that dude

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, IheartVolt said:

But that does not change that D-league is written all over that dude

And how do you know this immediately? I agree he'll get little to no time due to his shot but you're acting like you want to just immediately dump a 22 year old kid. Why? This team isn't winning anything.

So why not let the kids get a little more time? They'll make the playoffs but they have a 5% chance at beating Cleveland.

[IheartVolt]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

And how do you know this immediately? I agree he'll get little to no time due to his shot but you're acting like you want to just immediately dump a 22 year old kid. Why? This team isn't winning anything.

So why not let the kids get a little more time? They'll make the playoffs but they have a 5% chance at beating Cleveland.

Because of Korver , THjr , and Base.. I did not say that because of his skills but more because of the circumstances.

[IheartVolt]

3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

And how do you know this immediately? I agree he'll get little to no time due to his shot but you're acting like you want to just immediately dump a 22 year old kid. Why? This team isn't winning anything.

So why not let the kids get a little more time? They'll make the playoffs but they have a 5% chance at beating Cleveland.

I do not want to dump anyone.. What's so terrible about letting him sharpen up in the D-league ? Korver is not gonna be around forever

[Lurker]

Just now, IheartVolt said:

Because of Korver , THjr , and Base.. I did not say that because of his skills but more because of the circumstances.

THJ is not a small forward and Bazemore should be mainly a shooting guard this season, putting him at small forward for more than spot minutes to accommodate Korver playing big mins is a big big big mistake. This is what the thread is about, decreasing Korver's minutes and actually having a bigger small forward play.

[RandomFan]

10 minutes ago, IheartVolt said:

Bembry most likely will not be on the roster period. He is d-league fodder at this point. All of you act like he is a gurateed roster spot. Let the kid win his way on first.

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, IheartVolt said:

I do not want to dump anyone.. What's so terrible about letting him sharpen up in the D-league ? Korver is not gonna be around forever

If he's not on the roster at all, you lose him. You shouldn't have worded it the way you did. You should have said put Bembry on the mainly inactive roster.

[Lurker]

This is why the Hawks need a d-league lol.

**d-league team

[IheartVolt]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

THJ is not a small forward and Bazemore should be mainly a shooting guard this season, putting him at small forward for more than spot minutes to accommodate Korver playing big mins is a big big big mistake. This is what the thread is about, decreasing Korver's minutes and actually having a bigger small forward play.

Well The fro is not a sf either.. Not in the NBA. He was drafted to play guard