Sap off the market?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

That's whats frustrating to me with the Korver trade.   If we aren't going to find an actual scorer at the wing at least load up with guys who can hit the 3.   With Sap and Howard down low we can do some real damage if we had a 2 and 3 that could hit 3s.  

I'd encourage you to watch them play.  Kyle was totally ineffective because he can't get open.  No one draws a double team so Kyle. Can't. Get. Open. Now.

Not only that, he can't hit contested 3's consistently.  And every team in the league knows it.

The Kyle trade was a mercy killing.  Trading him to CLE made absolutely no difference.  They're capable of beating us with or without him.

[AHF]

37 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'd encourage you to watch them play.  Kyle was totally ineffective because he can't get open.  No one draws a double team so Kyle. Can't. Get. Open. Now.

Not only that, he can't hit contested 3's consistently.  And every team in the league knows it.

The Kyle trade was a mercy killing.  Trading him to CLE made absolutely no difference.  They're capable of beating us with or without him.

Kyle was terrible as a starter this season but excellent off the bench.  Spending more time guarding lesser players led to less abusing him defensively and playing more against lesser defender led him to a nice .433% 3pt% off the bench.  His rebounding and assists both went up (even on fewer minutes) and he posted a blistering 127 ORTG as a reserve (compared to a poor 97 as a starter).

 

[DS5]

So rumors are that the Lakers were prepared to offer Randle + contract fillers for Sap. I'd assume it'd be Mozgov to make salaries match, with that awful contract they game him this offseason. I think they'd need to include a first, but if so, I think that may be one of the better values we could get, relative to all those other trade scenarios in the rumor mill. 

While I want Sap to stay and re-sign a friendly 3+1 contract, I really think he'll be dealt by the deadline, and that Budcox know that some teams will get impatient and offer something crazy. 

[Watchman]

13 hours ago, BigDog90 said:

Hawks won't be competitive in the playoffs with this team. That's just insanity to expect something different. They'll be lucky to make it to the second round.

Opinions vary.  Why wouldn't they be competitive if they continue to improve as they have been doing over the last 10 games?  I genuinely think Howard is one of the few people who can slow Lebron James down.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, AHF said:

Kyle was terrible as a starter this season but excellent off the bench.  Spending more time guarding lesser players led to less abusing him defensively and playing more against lesser defender led him to a nice .433% 3pt% off the bench.  His rebounding and assists both went up (even on fewer minutes) and he posted a blistering 127 ORTG as a reserve (compared to a poor 97 as a starter).

 

Soooooo .... you agree with me?  Or ... I dunno.  I don't speak nimbers-ese.

3 minutes ago, DS5 said:

So rumors are that the Lakers were prepared to offer Randle + contract fillers for Sap. I'd assume it'd be Mozgov to make salaries match, with that awful contract they game him this offseason. I think they'd need to include a first, but if so, I think that may be one of the better values we could get, relative to all those other trade scenarios in the rumor mill. 

While I want Sap to stay and re-sign a friendly 3+1 contract, I really think he'll be dealt by the deadline, and that Budcox know that some teams will get impatient and offer something crazy. 

I'd take that, however, the 1st would probably be a heavily-protected 1st from '18 or later since their '17 pick belongs to PHI (effectively).  I don't know if they can trade it.

That said, why would LAL do that?

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Soooooo .... you agree with me?  Or ... I dunno.  I don't speak nimbers-ese.

Short version:  Kyle was an asset as soon as we stopped using him improperly as a starter and put him on the bench.  He will be an asset for Cleveland.  It wasn't a mercy killing since he was good off the bench and he should have returned some real value (which isn't to say we didn't).  The value we got wasn't terrible.  Would have been nicer not to keep competing in the East having enhanced our biggest obstacle in the conference.

[Watchman]

10 hours ago, Mdizzle5 said:

So we've done this to him twice now. What reason does he actually have to resign in the off-season? Sure we want him here but if he wants a ring, I don't think he's going to get it with this team. 

Also, how did Horford lie? Did he promise to resign here? He looked like he was gone two seasons ago. 

He lied in that he stated he wanted the best opportunity to win a championship.  With that Boston team?  Really?  He wanted the money, and he wanted to thumb his nose at us for not offering every single penny we could give him.

[DS5]

5 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'd take that, however, the 1st would probably be a heavily-protected 1st from '18 or later since their '17 pick belongs to PHI (effectively).  I don't know if they can trade it.

That said, why would LAL do that?

Probably want some stability and they think they can make a run at the playoffs (8 through 15 in the West is a mess). More likely just rumors.

[Watchman]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I'd encourage you to watch them play.  Kyle was totally ineffective because he can't get open.  No one draws a double team so Kyle. Can't. Get. Open. Now.

Not only that, he can't hit contested 3's consistently.  And every team in the league knows it.

The Kyle trade was a mercy killing.  Trading him to CLE made absolutely no difference.  They're capable of beating us with or without him.

For whatever the reason, he was getting open in some of the most recent games.

[swanlee]

14 hours ago, Lurker said:

That's your better chance though if done right. The Braves are going to be in pretty good shape from 2018-beyond.

It's also not a comparable situation because the Braves never were throwing down the money for Jason Heyward and Justin Upton (there is a hard cap in baseball, there aren't loopholes like basketball), plus the depth they had past their starting rotation looked pretty bleak. MAYBE.....MAYBE the Braves bounce back to mid 80s-high 80s in wins in 2015 BUT that would have been it!

The Braves have now sucked for several years and sucked last year and their is ZERO guarantee all the moves they have made will pay off. In the Meantime the Braves have been a horribly disappointing team to watch. In Sports you need to remain competitive while tweaking or adjusting a roster. Tanking and trading away talent just gives a big F U to current fans and season ticket holders.

As a front office if you are not capable of remaining competitive while still trying to improve then you suck and I won't support you. I will NEVER support putting a fan base through several horrible seasons on purpose in the hope that a million trades and maneuvers eventually may pay off.

 

[Thomas]

5 minutes ago, swanlee said:

I will NEVER support putting a fan base through several horrible seasons on purpose in the hope that a million trades and maneuvers eventually may pay off.

Agree, see the 76ers. Still the downward spiral with years of that strategy.

[swanlee]

Just now, Thomas said:

Agree, see the 76ers. Still the downward spiral with years of that strategy.

Also it KILLS Moral and breeds an environment of losing.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

Short version:  Kyle was an asset as soon as we stopped using him improperly as a starter and put him on the bench.  He will be an asset for Cleveland.  It wasn't a mercy killing since he was good off the bench and he should have returned some real value (which isn't to say we didn't).  The value we got wasn't terrible.  Would have been nicer not to keep competing in the East having enhanced our biggest obstacle in the conference.

Sooooo ... you disagree with me?  I are confused.  Kidding, we all said his minutes should be limited so it's not shocking that he got immediately better coming off the bench/playing fewer minutes

 At the end of day, I don't think we made CLE markedly better. Better?  Sure.  So much better that we shouldn'tve made the deal?  Nah.

8 minutes ago, Watchman said:

He lied in that he stated he wanted the best opportunity to win a championship.  With that Boston team?  Really?  He wanted the money, and he wanted to thumb his nose at us for not offering every single penny we could give him.

Scalabrine mentioned how he talked about the Kyle trade with wHorford.  Talked about how good a guy Kyle is or w/e.  Didn't quote anything, but seemed to indicate Alice expressed confusion at what we're doing.  Are we blowin' it up or w/e.

I came away thinking, f both o' y'all.  Keep our name outcho mouf!

6 minutes ago, DS5 said:

Probably want some stability and they think they can make a run at the playoffs (8 through 15 in the West is a mess). More likely just rumors.

Yeah but renting Sap for half a season doesn't speak to stability though.  Agree, probably just rumors.

4 minutes ago, Watchman said:

For whatever the reason, he was getting open in some of the most recent games.

It was 'cause he was no longer facing starters (as @AHF post indicates with all the fancy nimbers)

[Lurker]

56 minutes ago, swanlee said:

The Braves have now sucked for several years and sucked last year and their is ZERO guarantee all the moves they have made will pay off. In the Meantime the Braves have been a horribly disappointing team to watch. In Sports you need to remain competitive while tweaking or adjusting a roster. Tanking and trading away talent just gives a big F U to current fans and season ticket holders.

As a front office if you are not capable of remaining competitive while still trying to improve then you suck and I won't support you. I will NEVER support putting a fan base through several horrible seasons on purpose in the hope that a million trades and maneuvers eventually may pay off.

 

There aren't loopholes in baseball with the cap. The cap is the cap in baseball and there is no changing it. The only chance the Braves had at keeping Jason and Justin was if Liberty Media sold them to an owner that was much more willing to pay a loooootttt more money. There was no room to keep both of them with the cap ANNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDD fix the major issue the Braves had after 2014 which is the fault of the weak farm system.

[Sothron]

There is a difference between rebuilding and that crazy crap Heinke was doing in Philly. We did a long rebuild with the Hawks actually before it panned out with guys like Joe Johnson, Josh Smith and Marvin Williams then Horford putting us over into an actual consistent playoff team.

I am never opposed to a rebuild if it is done correctly. That being said we have too many win now parts on our team to suddenly try and blow it up. We are still in the same place we were for the last decade...if we could just find that ONE GUY to be a superstar to put with the rest of the pieces on our team we'd be a title contender.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

That's whats frustrating to me with the Korver trade.   If we aren't going to find an actual scorer at the wing at least load up with guys who can hit the 3.   With Sap and Howard down low we can do some real damage if we had a 2 and 3 that could hit 3s.  

@macdaddy  Here's a thought - What if the first we traded for Kyle was requested by another team for a trade this season to make us better?  

I know the focus all along is for a better wing player.  What if we can upgrade backup PF (a young good one) that allows Sap to play some at SF (I'm talking this season only and no I haven't checked who that player can be - I'm making it up).

I just don't know that there isn't more changes to come with this roster. There is 6 weeks until the trade deadline.

 

[BigDog90]

2 hours ago, swanlee said:

Huh? We have not tried in the playoffs with Howard, and DS as a Starter and TH jr. playing well. We certainly are built very differently then previous Hawks teams, we can actually rebound.

We haven't but what good is rebounding when that's not going to stop LeBron.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, BigDog90 said:

We haven't but what good is rebounding when that's not going to stop LeBron.

Well, be fair about it.  We got swept, but we weren't blown out of all those games including those in CLE.  Many came down to 1-3 possessions.  Meanwhile we shot horribly from 3 and consistently gave up back-to-bak-to-back possessions because a certain someone chose not to box out the Canadian 'cause him pek might get a widdle huwt.

IOW, rebounding could be a significant factor.

[AHF]

38 minutes ago, Lurker said:

There aren't loopholes in baseball with the cap. The cap is the cap in baseball and there is no changing it. The only chance the Braves had at keeping Jason and Justin was if Liberty Media sold them to an owner that was much more willing to pay a loooootttt more money. There was no room to keep both of them with the cap ANNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDD fix the major issue the Braves had after 2014 which is the fault of the weak farm system.

What cap are you talking about in baseball?  There is no cap.  Just a luxury tax.  There is no limit on what baseball teams can spend the only check on spending is that past a certain point you pay penalties.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, BigDog90 said:

We haven't but what good is rebounding when that's not going to stop LeBron.

Maybe because last playoffs Tristan Thompson killed Al on the offensive boards - might have had a chance to win a couple of the close games if we had snagged a rebound or 2.

One game alone we got beat 55 to 28 on the boards - almost double.  18 of them were offensive rebounds.