Did the Hawks change their mind after a week?

[REHawksFan]

Just trying to follow the logic here.  A week ago it is reported that they are actively trying to trade Sap and Thabo and then they actually DO trade KK to Cleveland for a lesser player (Dunleavy) and a future pick.  Then a week later they take Sap off the market and Bud says he really likes the team.  And now ESPN reports that Bud told Sap he won't be traded prior to the deadline. 

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18445455/paul-millsap-says-atlanta-hawks-told-dealt-trade-deadline

 

So what's the deal?  Trading KK (even as his role and effectiveness had diminished here) doesn't make the team better and signals the start of a reboot but keeping Paul is doubling down on the current roster.  If they are trying to win now, why trade KK to the team they are trying to beat and get nothing of current value in return? 

 

It sure looks like they were all about a rebuild last week and now they are back to trying to win now.  Am I missing something?  Is there any real value in the future 1st that can be swapped for current value to help this team? 

[Sothron]

Korver has not been the same since the injury. Trading him did not weaken the team. The stats show our team was better when he was off the court. We got a future first rounder we could use ourselves or flip in a trade later for an expiring old player with diminishing skills. I said when we traded Korver that it did not necessarily mean we were blowing up the team and I stand by it.

What it does is give more time to our younger guys and quite frankly more minutes to players who make better use of them.

[Guest]

This is the national narrative ... which is flat out wrong (as usual).

Trading Korver had no impact on winning.  None.  Should we hang onto him, play him off the bench and continue to block the rookies when they may actually help us more?  As is, we actually were able to flip a 36yo expiring for a 1st round pick.  Oh and we picked up a guy who's probably a better fit than Kyle.

Getting a sense of the market for Sap and/or Thabo was the right thing to do considering their contract status.

The Korver trade was unrelated to this action IMHO.  National folks are combining the two and assuming we, as the #4 seed/potential 2seed, are throwing in the towel.  That doesn't even sound right.

[sturt]

13 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Just trying to follow the logic here.  A week ago it is reported that they are actively trying to trade Sap and Thabo and then they actually DO trade KK to Cleveland for a lesser player (Dunleavy) and a future pick.  Then a week later they take Sap off the market and Bud says he really likes the team.  And now ESPN reports that Bud told Sap he won't be traded prior to the deadline. 

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18445455/paul-millsap-says-atlanta-hawks-told-dealt-trade-deadline

 

So what's the deal?  Trading KK (even as his role and effectiveness had diminished here) doesn't make the team better and signals the start of a reboot but keeping Paul is doubling down on the current roster.  If they are trying to win now, why trade KK to the team they are trying to beat and get nothing of current value in return? 

 

It sure looks like they were all about a rebuild last week and now they are back to trying to win now.  Am I missing something?  Is there any real value in the future 1st that can be swapped for current value to help this team? 

From my perspective, the deal is.... don't eat the cheese. All of these things can be judged in hindsight based on real evidence.

Only hindsight.

Everything else is highly subject to uninformed conjecture and/or irresponsible people--normally either other execs or sports media types--with their own agendas attempting to advance those agendas.

Not saying that rumors are never true, but am suggesting in the spirit of innocent until proven guilty that a similar spirit is wisely applied in these situations.

It's one thing to be actively marketing, another thing to be taking calls, and knowing the difference can be a matter of who's telling the story and why they're telling it.

[swanlee]

I hope they were just trying to trade Korver and after that unfounded rumors swirled of a tank job and rebuild. 

We just signed Howard and are in first place, tanking or blowing up the team right now would be completely stupid.

Trading Korver right now by itself only signals that we may want to give more minutes to younger players that can play better defense and have more upside.

Now trading Korver, Sap, Thabo, TH jr. right now would signal tanking and be an insult to the the fans and Howard

 

Edited January 10, 2017 by swanlee

[REHawksFan]

4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

This is the national narrative ... which is flat out wrong (as usual).

Trading Korver had no impact on winning.  None.  Should we hang onto him, play him off the bench and continue to block the rookies when they may actually help us more?  As is, we actually were able to flip a 36yo expiring for a 1st round pick.  Oh and we picked up a guy who's probably a better fit than Kyle.

Getting a sense of the market for Sap and/or Thabo was the right thing to do considering their contract status.

The Korver trade was unrelated to this action IMHO.  National folks are combining the two and assuming we, as the #4 seed/potential 2seed, are throwing in the towel.  That doesn't even sound right.

You are correct that the narrative that is being played out doesn't make logical sense.  I agree KK was not helping the Hawks win (his win share is 0.37 and RPM is -2.46) but statistically Dunleavy is worse than KK.  I know he wasn't the "get" of the deal, but here we are stuck with him.  Maybe Bud won't play him? 

If this means seeing more Prince and Bembry I'm all for it, but it doesn't SEEM like the KK move and the SAP/Thabo/THJ rumors fit together logically. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, swanlee said:

I hope they were just trying to trade Korver and after that unfounded rumors swirled of a tank job and rebuild. 

We just signed Howard and are in first place, tanking or blowing up the team right now would be completely stupid.

Agreed.  We just signed Howard, just re-signed Dennis and (for better or worse) re-signed Skip BazeLess.  These are not actions of a tanking team.

Eggsperts on NBARadio were talking Hawks (for the 1st time in weeks) and were totally flabbergasted.  Saying stuff like, "Why would you sign these guys then change your mind after half a year?" 

Uh dumba**, they didn't change their mind.  You're relying on made-up "news".

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

You are correct that the narrative that is being played out doesn't make logical sense.  I agree KK was not helping the Hawks win (his win share is 0.37 and RPM is -2.46) but statistically Dunleavy is worse than KK.  I know he wasn't the "get" of the deal, but here we are stuck with him.  Maybe Bud won't play him? 

If this means seeing more Prince and Bembry I'm all for it, but it doesn't SEEM like the KK move and the SAP/Thabo/THJ rumors fit together logically. 

Yep, that's what I'm saying.  If Dunleavy gives us anything, great.  If not, release him.  That simple.

[macdaddy]

I don't think they were ever aggresively shopping Sap but i think they were considering offers.  When they saw the offers sucked they said screw this.  

I agree though that trading Korver for a future pick doesn't signal we're going for it.   If Korver was so harmful to us why was he playing?   and why would Cleveland want him so bad?     I honestly think it was a bad move unless our motivation is to just get him a ring.   

[Plainview1981]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

This is the national narrative ... which is flat out wrong (as usual).

Trading Korver had no impact on winning.  None.  Should we hang onto him, play him off the bench and continue to block the rookies when they may actually help us more?  As is, we actually were able to flip a 36yo expiring for a 1st round pick.  Oh and we picked up a guy who's probably a better fit than Kyle.

Getting a sense of the market for Sap and/or Thabo was the right thing to do considering their contract status.

The Korver trade was unrelated to this action IMHO.  National folks are combining the two and assuming we, as the #4 seed/potential 2seed, are throwing in the towel.  That doesn't even sound right.

Korver had been posting solid numbers since moving to the bench.

Either the offers for Sap were weak or the owner said not to trade him.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Hotlanta1981

[Plainview1981]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Agreed.  We just signed Howard, just re-signed Dennis and (for better or worse) re-signed Skip BazeLess.  These are not actions of a tanking team.

Eggsperts on NBARadio were talking Hawks (for the 1st time in weeks) and were totally flabbergasted.  Saying stuff like, "Why would you sign these guys then change your mind after half a year?" 

Uh dumba**, they didn't change their mind.  You're relying on made-up "news".

ESPN Fake news?

Edited January 10, 2017 by Hotlanta1981

[Plainview1981]

52 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I don't think they were ever aggresively shopping Sap but i think they were considering offers.  When they saw the offers sucked they said screw this.  

I agree though that trading Korver for a future pick doesn't signal we're going for it.   If Korver was so harmful to us why was he playing?   and why would Cleveland want him so bad?     I honestly think it was a bad move unless our motivation is to just get him a ring.   

It wouldn't shock me if Kyle retires after this year or next and becomes an assistant coach behind Bud.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

Korver had been posting solid numbers since moving to the bench.

Exactly.  When Bud stopped forcing things keeping Kyle in the starting lineup, Kyle suddenly started performing quite nicely off the bench.  We lost a valuable part of our bench rotation by giving him up and taking Mo Williams and Dunleavy back.  Value wasn't terrible in the trade but wasn't anything super exciting either.  Trade partner was distasteful.  

Best rationale I see for the trade was deciding to give Prince and Bembry more burn and needing to clear the decks to commit to their development.  If Bud watched the game footage of Prince in the D-League and said to himself "we need to play this kid now; no more waiting" then I get taking the best offer you can find in early January even if it will probably be at best the #26 pick in the 2019 draft.

[hazer]

55 minutes ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

It wouldn't shock me if Kyle retires after this year or next and becomes an assistant coach behind Bud.

Somebody's been listening to Hazer ;)

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

ESPN Fake news?

Call it fake.  Call it overblown conjecture.  Call it whatever you want.  That network trades in hyperbole and assumption.  Feel free to eat their "experts" tripe if you want.  I won't be in that buffet line.

[sturt]

2 hours ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

Korver had been posting solid numbers since moving to the bench.

Either the offers for Sap were weak or the owner said not to trade him.

 

Begging your indulgence, please help me understand what qualifies for "posting solid numbers since moving to the bench."

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/korveky01/gamelog/2017

 

 

[Plainview1981]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

 

Begging your indulgence, please help me understand what qualifies for "posting solid numbers since moving to the bench."

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/korveky01/gamelog/2017

 

 

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/2011/kyle-korver

He averages 11.5 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 2.6 APG while hitting 44% of his 3's off the bench. All of those numbers are up over his starter numbers. Not bad numbers for a 36 year old backup with a limited game.

There is no reason to believe Mike or the rookies will do better than that.

[Guest]

I said in another thread, what if there is another trade coming and we needed that future 1st to make a deal.

Attach it to Baze for a better player?

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/2011/kyle-korver

He averages 11.5 PPG, 3.5 RPG, 2.6 APG while hitting 44% of his 3's off the bench. All of those numbers are up over his starter numbers. Not bad numbers for a 36 year old backup with a limited game.

There is no reason to believe Mike or the rookies will do better than that.

A 127 ortg is elite.  That is his number off the bench.  Very solid combined with his D.

His ts% as a reserve is well over .600%.  

What else do you want from your long distance shooter off the bench?

[sturt]

But this isn't the old 6 on 6 girls version of the game, and Kyle can't just camp out on one side of the court. It's no more valid to present defense numbers as all encompassing than it is offense. 

Moreover, I look at those game to game results, and see nothing remarkably different--good games of the last few weeks vs. ugly ones seem in-line with what was seen before.

Moreover again, those 82games.com stats just so clearly demonstrated two years ago what a monster factor he was in our success... and now, they clearly demonstrate, unfortunately, that the net effect of having him on the floor was just as compelling, except to our team's deficit.

 

Can the others have a better net performance with those minutes now vacated by his exit? THjr's doing really good, Prince and Bembry not so much in their relatively limited action. And yet, they all represent a substantial improvement over Kyle's body of work.

Love the guy. But objectively the argument that said we need to move on to our 3 young wings, and see if our fortunes benefit was/is convincing for Hawks HQ, and for many of us, too, now that the deed is done and we review the overall situation.