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bleachkit

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On 5/4/2017 at 2:59 PM, NBASupes said:

LOL at that article.  Not even worth addressing. 

If you want to be a socialist, move to a socialist country.  Anyone can go to college, it's called student loans.  Believe it or not most "white" peoples parents didn't pay for their college education.

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4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Fair shake is the understatement of the last 500 years. 

Your issue is with prejudice, not systematic white supremacy. Anyone can be prejudice, at times I could be prejudice even though I work hard not to be. But I can never be racist. I don't have the system or even the freedom to do so.

You use a different definition of "racist" than regular people, the law and the dictionary.

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1 hour ago, AtLaS said:

LOL at that article.  Not even worth addressing. 

If you want to be a socialist, move to a socialist country.  Anyone can go to college, it's called student loans.  Believe it or not most "white" peoples parents didn't pay for their college education.

I want justice. That's what I want. You can call it what you want but it's clear this country severally lacks it.

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11 minutes ago, AHF said:

You use a different definition of "racist" than regular people, the law and the dictionary.

The law can always change depending on who's in Senate, Congress, oval office and supreme court.

 

Words can always change in definition depending on region, time period and who's giving the definition. For whites which own the Websters, Oxford of the world, maybe you will change it for your usage of behavior. For Blacks, this is pretty much the definition.

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“ Non-whites can’t practice racism as it requires power and prejudice. White people have power to oppress Black people because they control the system and ecnomic [sic.] structure in society.”

 I can be prejudice. I can say, AHF, you cannot dance because you are a white boy. Is that accurate? Who knows but is it damn sure prejudice. 

 

In a system of white supremacy where whites can do anything to Blacks with no repercussions, say what they want and do the I am white and I say so when questioned, deflect better than Nixon during Watergate and just do little to nothing but laugh when Blacks are harmed when your group collectively come up with laws when Blacks or non whites respond back, control 99% of the land and 90% of the wealth in this country, I have to say that this is extremely accurate and anything you use as your definition is white supremacist liberal nonsense which is meant to confuse when is a rule of global white supremacy practiced on non whites by white dominate society. 

In a system of white supremacy, Blacks are children and men are always boys or girls. I could be a lawyer like you but I'll never be respected as a lawyer by the higher society when you are truly making moves and not just surviving. RIP Johnnie Cochran and God bless Alton Maddox. God bless you to AHF, I got love for you but you know this system has to crash at some point and justice and liberty can be had for ALL.

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7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I want justice. That's what I want. You can call it what you want but it's clear this country severally lacks it.

Let's just talk about GA.  So why are there so many affluent black people in Atlanta?  Why are they successful and others are not?  Most are not "entertainers" as you seem to infer.

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1 hour ago, AtLaS said:

Let's just talk about GA.  So why are there so many affluent black people in Atlanta?  Why are they successful and others are not?  Most are not "entertainers" as you seem to infer.

But Black people aren't affluent in metro Atlanta. You have some who are but the majority is poor. 


The Atlanta school system is broken, underfunded, isn't given a shot at success due to silly bylaws on rigorous testing for schools who simply don't have the student pool who's focus to do the coursework. 

http://www.11alive.com/news/education/atlanta-schools-superintendent-on-failing-schools-helping-students-and-property-deeds/436485693

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/04/can-brain-science-pull-families-out-of-poverty/523479/?utm_content=buffer58463&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Gentrification is eating Black Atlanta ass alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification_of_Atlanta

They are under a system of white supremacy as much as any other non-white person. Bill Cosby and Michael Vick is a prime example that if white supremacists want to take whatever they want away from Blacks, they can do so regardless of WHO you are. 

No offense but .01% of all Blacks doesn't represent the collective as Donald Trump and Hilary Clinton doesn't represent all whites. They are just tokenized people. You call your puppets, we call ours tokens. When Trump wins, that doesn't mean you win. If he loses, that doesn't mean you lose. 

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.01%?  Now you're just making up numbers.  There are nearly 100,000 high income black families in metro Atlanta alone.  13% of black households in America makes over 100K.  That is millions of people.  Why are they successful?  I'm guessing they are all just lucky?

Gentrification bad?  Man it must suck when your property value drastically increases and you have to sell for a big profit.  I'm hoping my neighborhood "gentrifies" soon, I'll happily move.

 

 

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1 hour ago, AtLaS said:

.01%?  Now you're just making up numbers.  There are nearly 100,000 high income black families in metro Atlanta alone.  13% of black households in America makes over 100K.  That is millions of people.  Why are they successful?  I'm guessing they are all just lucky?

Gentrification bad?  Man it must suck when your property value drastically increases and you have to sell for a big profit.  I'm hoping my neighborhood "gentrifies" soon, I'll happily move.

 

 

You were literally talking about successful entertainers. That's hardly overly 2000 Blacks if you just include athletes, actors and musicians. Don't play action deflection. It's disingenuous. 

 

Gentrification effects 80% of Blacks and as proven in cities like New York. It comes for majority of Blacks at some point. You get higher property tax, higher police presence, with that, higher police profiling and of course discomfort of treatment from the new neighbors and the old neighborhood doesn't seem anything like it used to and everything has been priced out.

 

It's horrible when you think that Blacks never received any form of collective reparations and white supremacy never ended after slavery,  it only evolved. 

Reconstruction, Jim Crow, segregation and what I call James S. Crow which is also known as the prison era as well as the great divide which extremely was targeted to Blacks as well as the usually screwball immigrants which is good for them but bad for Blacks as they get their benefits to create for their families which a lot of Blacks are still ill from the previous treatment of white supremacy and current discrimination of white supremacy. 

Now you backtrack and claim, banks and the government isn't racist to all Blacks but it's more than enough which the amount can't be proven, those that want to build have issue building anything due to a lack of assets or just getting approved period. This is problematic. But of course a privilege guy in the white society has no issue with Black mistreatment as its a past time for people of the system of white supremacy as Black people are the boots of America. 

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3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

You were literally talking about successful entertainers. That's hardly overly 2000 Blacks if you just include athletes, actors and musicians. Don't play action deflection. It's disingenuous. "

I am going to give you these statistics again.  13% of african american households earn over 100K.  There are roughly 42 million african americans in the US, meaning that is over 5 MILLION people that seem to be doing well.  Entertainers and athletes make up a very small fraction of those.  

So, again.  WHY are all these millions of black people (non entertainers or athletes) so successful?  Why is that?  If the odds are so heavily stacked against them as you seem to insinuate then there wouldn't be millions that are kicking that door down.

Regarding gentrification, would you rather the property lose value instead?  I've had plenty of family members forced out of their neighborhoods for gentrification, they walk away with their equity check and move on.  

 

Quote

Now you backtrack and claim, banks and the government isn't racist to all Blacks but it's more than enough which the amount can't be proven, those that want to build have issue building anything due to a lack of assets or just getting approved period. This is problematic. But of course a privilege guy in the white society has no issue with Black mistreatment as its a past time for people of the system of white supremacy as Black people are the boots of America.

Haha at me being a "privelege guy."  So we are all the same (white ppl)?   I guessing you also think no white people got screwed over in the early 2000s from crappy loans.  Your bigotry is shining bright.

If a person can't get a loan from the bank, it's because their credit sucks.  It's not because they are black or white. 

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I find it insulting and patronizing that anyone would think blacks can't be racist.  As if they are children who lack agency.

 

Plus, having control of the social structure is never a part of what the word has meant.  So while that concept is worth discussing it should have a different term.

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8 minutes ago, AHF said:

I find it insulting and patronizing that anyone would think blacks can't be racist.  As if they are children who lack agency.

 

Plus, having control of the social structure is never a part of what the word has meant.  So while that concept is worth discussing it should have a different term.

How so? In a system of white supremacy, Blacks generally don't have choices. They are funnel regardless if they know it or not. Now you can say you know this guy or that guy but they are usually tokens. They aren't really that many at the end of the day but you will convince yourself that they had a choice when in many cases, they did not. 

How can a Black person stop you or even harm you and get away with it. But you can do it and you can expect no punishment? So basically Black racism is name calling and jokes to you? It's not anything tangible and you are insulted. I think it is insulting that you refuse to see the big picture where every odd is stacked v. those just because of a social construct like race and a religious system like white supremacy? 

 

No offense, but I prevented you from being the great lawyer you are, disbarred you via my system and made you play my game to be successful, then I can see that maybe I am the racist but... where can you prove this type of behavior v. whites anywhere in the system of white supremacy? 

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53 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

I am going to give you these statistics again.  13% of african american households earn over 100K.  There are roughly 42 million african americans in the US, meaning that is over 5 MILLION people that seem to be doing well.  Entertainers and athletes make up a very small fraction of those.  

So, again.  WHY are all these millions of black people (non entertainers or athletes) so successful?  Why is that?  If the odds are so heavily stacked against them as you seem to insinuate then there wouldn't be millions that are kicking that door down.

Regarding gentrification, would you rather the property lose value instead?  I've had plenty of family members forced out of their neighborhoods for gentrification, they walk away with their equity check and move on.  

 

Haha at me being a "privelege guy."  So we are all the same (white ppl)?   I guessing you also think no white people got screwed over in the early 2000s from crappy loans.  Your bigotry is shining bright.

If a person can't get a loan from the bank, it's because their credit sucks.  It's not because they are black or white. 

What is their wealth? When you can answer that for me then we can talk. Even data shown Blacks who make 100k are above usually have far less assets compared to whites with the same income due to wealth being pass down from generations. What could that be from? The benefits of slavery. The cotton gin damn near turn this country into an economy powerhouse. Those who used it didn't even get compensated. Do you not see the disgust in it. Even the Chinese who created the roads were paid and when mistreated, given COLLECTIVE reparations, Blacks were not. 

Millions you say: https://www.thenation.com/article/the-average-black-family-would-need-228-years-to-build-the-wealth-of-a-white-family-today/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/antonio-moore/black-wealth-is-nonexiste_b_12347196.html

http://www.demos.org/publication/asset-value-whiteness-understanding-racial-wealth-gap

tenor.gif

 

If we lived in a system of justice, those who unfairly earned would give to those who hardly received the MOST. Meaning instead of giving the best schools to the highest tax bracket, we need to give it the lowest tax bracket and give them the tools to be successful. Give their parent the tools to be successful. Give them access to not just quality education but tax free business loans, higher credit for families and remove benefits for women who have children out of wedlock or just unwedded, end massive incarceration which inheritedly targets non-whites, in particular, Black males. The one thing I do like about a sport like Basketball is it looks for the BEST players, fits and personalities regardless of race. No other function in society operates that way, not even the organizations that sign, recruit and train the athletes. This will solve all of the property questions in  nutshell. 

 

In a system of white supremacy, I am suppose to be respectful but suspicious of all. Especially if they have showed collective signs of benefits from a system in which they do not want to end that clear identity is to harm non-whites. 

 

That's where you are wrong. For someone white, that might be the case. That's not the case for Blacks. A lot of the predatory loans targeted Blacks of all income brackets and mainly only targeted whites and hispanics of a less affluent background. Look into DeKalb Co, GA and Prince George's County, MD. Name calling is a sign of defeat. I have not called you, AHF or anyone a bigot, white supremacist or anything like that nor do I even think it. Please reframe from name calling, you come off as weak when you do so and someone who knows they are wrong. If you want to have a honest conversation, please do so respectfully. I know I not the most kind person in regards to the Hawks but I am very kind in terms of more serious conversations. 

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7 hours ago, NBASupes said:

What is their wealth? When you can answer that for me then we can talk. Even data shown Blacks who make 100k are above usually have far less assets compared to whites with the same income due to wealth being pass down from generations. What could that be from? The benefits of slavery. The cotton gin damn near turn this country into an economy powerhouse. Those who used it didn't even get compensated. Do you not see the disgust in it. Even the Chinese who created the roads were paid and when mistreated, given COLLECTIVE reparations, Blacks were not. 

Millions you say: https://www.thenation.com/article/the-average-black-family-would-need-228-years-to-build-the-wealth-of-a-white-family-today/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/antonio-moore/black-wealth-is-nonexiste_b_12347196.html

http://www.demos.org/publication/asset-value-whiteness-understanding-racial-wealth-gap

tenor.gif

 

If we lived in a system of justice, those who unfairly earned would give to those who hardly received the MOST. Meaning instead of giving the best schools to the highest tax bracket, we need to give it the lowest tax bracket and give them the tools to be successful. Give their parent the tools to be successful. Give them access to not just quality education but tax free business loans, higher credit for families and remove benefits for women who have children out of wedlock or just unwedded, end massive incarceration which inheritedly targets non-whites, in particular, Black males. The one thing I do like about a sport like Basketball is it looks for the BEST players, fits and personalities regardless of race. No other function in society operates that way, not even the organizations that sign, recruit and train the athletes. This will solve all of the property questions in  nutshell. 

 

In a system of white supremacy, I am suppose to be respectful but suspicious of all. Especially if they have showed collective signs of benefits from a system in which they do not want to end that clear identity is to harm non-whites. 

 

That's where you are wrong. For someone white, that might be the case. That's not the case for Blacks. A lot of the predatory loans targeted Blacks of all income brackets and mainly only targeted whites and hispanics of a less affluent background. Look into DeKalb Co, GA and Prince George's County, MD. Name calling is a sign of defeat. I have not called you, AHF or anyone a bigot, white supremacist or anything like that nor do I even think it. Please reframe from name calling, you come off as weak when you do so and someone who knows they are wrong. If you want to have a honest conversation, please do so respectfully. I know I not the most kind person in regards to the Hawks but I am very kind in terms of more serious conversations. 

I think one of the most important things that society could do is to end the war on drugs. The war on drugs was put into place to arrest black people, and young left leaning whites, and that's no conspiracy theory, Nixon's top adviser even admitted as such in numerous interviews. They wanted to arrest hippies and blacks, because they were mostly democrats. Eventually the war on drugs became official public policy, fed by lies and propaganda.

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5 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

I think one of the most important things that society could do is to end the war on drugs. The war on drugs was put into place to arrest black people, and young left leaning whites, and that's no conspiracy theory, Nixon's top adviser even admitted as such in numerous interviews. They wanted to arrest hippies and blacks, because they were mostly democrats. Eventually the war on drugs became official public policy, fed by lies and propaganda.

As long as it's code for arrest more negro males, it's not going nowhere. This is a system of white supremacy. Right isn't right in this system, white supremacy is only supreme. The sooner all Blacks realize this, they will stop wasting their time hoping good white folks find a heart. It's a system, one that is far more effective than San Antonio's and it doesn't like to take L's. 

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1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

As long as it's code for arrest more negro males, it's not going nowhere. This is a system of white supremacy. Right isn't right in this system, white supremacy is only supreme. The sooner all Blacks realize this, they will stop wasting their time hoping good white folks find a heart. It's a system, one that is far more effective than San Antonio's and it doesn't like to take L's. 

It astonishing to me when black leaders do not challenge the status quo. Kasim Reed publicly opposed the decriminalization of marijuana in Atlanta. There are so many needless arrests of young black men on marijuana charges, yet Kasim Reed , who claims to be a progressive, is unwilling to challenge laws that have historically been racist and are not in the spirit of a free civil society. It's unconscionable. 

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1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

It astonishing to me when black leaders do not challenge the status quo. Kasim Reed publicly opposed the decriminalization of marijuana in Atlanta. There are so many needless arrests of young black men on marijuana charges, yet Kasim Reed , who claims to be a progressive, is unwilling to challenge laws that have historically been racist and are not in the spirit of a free civil society. It's unconscionable. 

How can they? I used to be politics. You don't have a card to pull. Whites control everything. I knew of a white political donor who named his damn dog Kasim Reed. He was a democrat. 

The sooner you realize that you can only control politicians with capital and an agenda, nothing will change and truth is, they won't even let you win if you aren't chosen first and believe it or not, it's not that hard once you are inside but you are dealt a bad hand. That goes for ALL politicians. Black, white, etc. Most have to be backed by a society. Depending on your region to be honest. I won't go into more detail even in PM's so don't ask. Just know it's not sweet and there is no such thing as racial loyalty if you aren't white in politics. Even then, class reigns supreme if you are white. And I mean SUPREME! But I blame poor and middle class whites. They have the power to make a change but... Forget about it. It's not even worth it. It's a system and everyone likes their perks who qualify for them. 

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2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

How can they? I used to be politics. You don't have a card to pull. Whites control everything. I knew of a white political donor who named his damn dog Kasim Reed. He was a democrat. 

The sooner you realize that you can only control politicians with capital and an agenda, nothing will change and truth is, they won't even let you win if you aren't chosen first and believe it or not, it's not that hard once you are inside but you are dealt a bad hand. That goes for ALL politicians. Black, white, etc. Most have to be backed by a society. Depending on your region to be honest. I won't go into more detail even in PM's so don't ask. Just know it's not sweet and there is no such thing as racial loyalty if you aren't white in politics. Even then, class reigns supreme if you are white. And I mean SUPREME! But I blame poor and middle class whites. They have the power to make a change but... Forget about it. It's not even worth it. It's a system and everyone likes their perks who qualify for them. 

I try to be open minded on issues. But the war on drugs is an unmitigated disaster. During the 1930s prohibition gave rise to Al Capone and the mafia. The same economic forces apply to drugs. Making drugs illegal increases crime, and increases the harm caused by drugs. Legalization allows for harm reduction and the under cutting of the black market. Unfortunately, the police, the courts, the prisons, will fight tooth and nail to protect their cash cow. Prisons would be ghost towns without drug offenders.

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2 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

I try to be open minded on issues. But the war on drugs is an unmitigated disaster. During the 1930s prohibition gave rise to Al Capone and the mafia. The same economic forces apply to drugs. Making drugs illegal increases crime, and increases the harm caused by drugs. Legalization allows for harm reduction and the under cutting of the black market. Unfortunately, the police, the courts, the prisons, will fight tooth and nail to protect their cash cow. Prisons would be ghost towns without drug offenders.

I probably said too much and I will bow from future convos on this. That said, it's more than just what you stated. It's to maintain slavery but under the illusion of choice. Think back to when I said, Blacks have no choice. They think they have options and choices but many have no choice and everyone knows it deep down inside. 

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10 hours ago, NBASupes said:

What is their wealth? When you can answer that for me then we can talk. Even data shown Blacks who make 100k are above usually have far less assets compared to whites with the same income due to wealth being pass down from generations. What could that be from? The benefits of slavery. The cotton gin damn near turn this country into an economy powerhouse. Those who used it didn't even get compensated. Do you not see the disgust in it. Even the Chinese who created the roads were paid and when mistreated, given COLLECTIVE reparations, Blacks were not. "

Ehh, the stats show that wealth disappears in 70% of families by the 2nd generation, and 90% by the 3rd.  There isn't that much "old money".  Of course there are exceptions but that is not the vast majority.  Plus the people who didn't earn it, don't know anything about managing money in most cases.  It takes the average person 19 days of receiving an inheritance to buy a new car.  That's literally pissing money away.

With the amount of black households that are making over 100K today, there will be a lot of wealthy black people in the near future.  Wealth grows based on how you spend/invest your money, not how much you inherit with the exception of the few people who are lucky enough to receive a significant inheritance (and as mentioned most lose it anyway).  If you invest your money into real estate, stocks, bonds, savings, and commodities than your wealth will grow.   If it's spent on new cars, boats, clothes, shoes, jewelry, and season tickets to your favorite teams then your wealth will not grow.  It's that simple.  This goes for every race.  Stock prices don't drop when a black person buys it.  

I know people making 60K/year that are WAY more wealthy than people making 100K+.  But you wouldn't know it because they aren't driving a brand new car and trying to keep up with the Jones's.

Quote

If we lived in a system of justice, those who unfairly earned would give to those who hardly received the MOST. Meaning instead of giving the best schools to the highest tax bracket, we need to give it the lowest tax bracket and give them the tools to be successful. Give their parent the tools to be successful. Give them access to not just quality education but tax free business loans, higher credit for families and remove benefits for women who have children out of wedlock or just unwedded, end massive incarceration which inheritedly targets non-whites, in particular, Black males. The one thing I do like about a sport like Basketball is it looks for the BEST players, fits and personalities regardless of race. No other function in society operates that way, not even the organizations that sign, recruit and train the athletes. This will solve all of the property questions in  nutshell. "

Absolutely agree that schools need to be better, there are a ton of crappy black (and white) schools.  More focus needs to be put on financial literacy and not how to do differential equations.  It's surprising how many people still have no clue of the difference between an asset and a liability.  Rich Dad Poor Dad (my favorite book of all time, you should read it), the Millionaire Next Door and the Richest Man in Babylon should be a staple in every school.  

 

I don't agree with the socialist agenda.  It's very difficult to find even one country with a socialist success story.  What if you studied very hard to get straight A's while your friends goofed off and barely passed with a C.  And at the end of the semester the teacher said, everyone get's a B.  What motivation would someone have to start a business, build a company, or work hard to do anything?  What motivation would there be for kids to aspire to become professional athletes?  There's no incentive.  It creates lazyness.  No reason to work harder or study harder than your peers.  In fact, it's actually better to not work or be very unproductive since you will still get rewarded.  Check how it's working in Sweden.  

http://www.paoracle.com/SocialismWORKS!/?sw=Sweden

 

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The one thing I do like about a sport like Basketball is it looks for the BEST players, fits and personalities regardless of race. No other function in society operates that way

False.  I am now in high tech sales and have been for about 5 years, but I've also been at car dealerships and small companies prior.  I can tell you sales works EXACTLY that way, at every company.  Sales is about production, period.  Doesn't matter what color you are.  If you don't hit your numbers, you're out in short time.  I've seen lots of white, black, hispanic, asian people fired for lack of production.  It's just part of the business.  I've also seen a lot of my black buddies trample their quota, get promoted into upper management roles and now making a lot more money.  If you can close deals, NOTHING else matters.  Sales are the lifeblood of every business, which is why there are millions of salespeople in the world.

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That's where you are wrong. For someone white, that might be the case. That's not the case for Blacks. A lot of the predatory loans targeted Blacks of all income brackets and mainly only targeted whites and hispanics of a less affluent background. Look into DeKalb Co, GA and Prince George's County, MD. "

I'm not even going to attempt to argue the 08 housing collapse because I agree, it was a travesty that lots of people saw coming a mile away.  I know too many people who were screwed by it and are still buried in their homes.  Every time I've watched inside job it pisses me off.

Regardless, some fault has to be given to the homebuyers.  Lot's of people never even made their first payment, why would they sign off on that in the first place?  Maybe I'm just a scrooge for details and always skeptical when money's involved, bc I don't trust anyone.  Bankers, mortgage lenders, recruiters, salesppl are paid commission based on you buying.  They are not paid for giving advice.  I always do all of my own research before making any big purchase so I don't get screwed.  Especially a home.  Better financial knowledge will alleviate many of these things.  Luckily because of truecar and edmunds the dealerships aren't raking in 15K commissions per car anymore.  Now that's a shady business if you want to know of one.

 

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Name calling is a sign of defeat. I have not called you, AHF or anyone a bigot, white supremacist or anything like that nor do I even think it. Please reframe from name calling, you come off as weak when you do so and someone who knows they are wrong. If you want to have a honest conversation, please do so respectfully. I know I not the most kind person in regards to the Hawks but I am very kind in terms of more serious conversations. 

When you throw around the term "white supremacy" so loosely it comes off as bigoted.  I didn't call you a name.  But I take offense to that comment because I know WAY more unsuccessful whites than successful ones.  It's not as easy as you seem to insinuate.  I think you are referring moreso to the top 1%.  Of course they are better off and have privileges that others don't.  That's true in any country.  Does that mean that if you don't come from money you can't succeed?  Absolutely not.  Me and a lot of the people that I grew up with (black and white) have proven that to be false.

Most people are not getting fat inheritances.  Not to mention the average age of an inheritance is pushing 60.  Hell, your book has already been written by the time you're that age.  I'm sorry but 60 year olds aren't the ones gentrifying neighborhoods.  

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16 hours ago, AHF said:

I find it insulting and patronizing that anyone would think blacks can't be racist.  As if they are children who lack agency.

 

Plus, having control of the social structure is never a part of what the word has meant.  So while that concept is worth discussing it should have a different term.

From a criminology and psychology background "racism" and all other 'isms are defined by prejudice and discrimination both on an individual and institutional level.  Anyone can surely be racist and yes if a system of power disadvantages one group over another then it is surely racist too. 

It is an interesting phenomena that I've studied in that conservatives seem more likely to only recognize it on an individual level while liberals seem to only recognize it on an institutional level.  It's an interesting manner for both sides to absolve themselves in particular instances. 

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