Let's Not Start the BS!!-Can We Agree?

[Wurider05]

We are not the Warriors and will never be. So don't start that bullshit about getting our Klay Thompson or our Draymond Green. I heard enough of this with the we are the  Spurs-East crap. We are not the Spurs or the Warriors. We are the Atlanta Hawks a team no one wants to play for. It was easy working for the Warriors because players are willing to take less money to play there over that last few years. We can't even overpay to get good players here. This guy isn't going to walk in here and change that. Winning is the only thing that will do that and that may not be enough because players rather live in Atlanta than to play here. Not being a negative Nancy but it is what is is. Our player development is our greatest strength as a franchise.  

[sturt]

4 minutes ago, Wurider05 said:

We are not the Warriors and will never be. So don't start that bullshit about getting our Klay Thompson or our Draymond Green. I heard enough of this with the we are the  Spurs-East crap. We are not the Spurs or the Warriors. We are the Atlanta Hawks a team no one wants to play for. It was easy working for the Warriors because players are willing to take less money to play there over that last few years. We can't even overpay to get good players here. This guy isn't going to walk in here and change that. Winning is the only thing that will do that and that may not be enough because players rather live in Atlanta than to play here. Not being a negative Nancy but it is what is is. Our player development is our greatest strength as a franchise.  

I don't see that you're saying something different at the end from the beginning of the paragraph... those guys did not arrive in Oakland as finished products. We have to find our diamonds in the rough and develop them, and for all our flaws, that's one thing we've had some success doing just as you suggest.

[Guest]

Wait, wasn't @Wurider05 a chill dude?...Lol..Did you used to have a wake forest avatar? Just didn't seem like your writing style and demeanor. My bad if I'm mistaken.

[thecampster]

Wurider is right on this.  A few years ago this was discussed in detail on this board.  The number one reason top tier athletes choose cities is not the fan base, the weather or even winning tradition.  Elite players choose cities based on marketing opportunities (Lebron as the exception).

We as fans get hung up on winning. But players have a short shelf life. They need to make as much money as possible in the shortest time possible. Cities like LA, NY, Chi, Bos have very large television markets and captive except for LA, captive winter audiences. Good players make as much or more in endorsements based on the city they live in, than their contract.  See this article as one example http://opendorse.com/blog/8-athletes-who-earn-more-money-from-endorsements-than-their-sports-careers/

The biggest player in this with NBA players are sporting wear and shoe makers. Addidas (for example) makes it a point to give out endorsements to its players in their bigger markets and makes sure to have at least one brand shoe in each market. Back when Josh was a big deal in Atlanta and we first talked about Dwight coming here, it was discussed on this board how Adidas held shoe contracts with both and had no one wearing their shoes in other major markets. But the fact remains that if you are selling sneakers in Atlanta vs selling them in LA, the market in LA is vastly bigger than in the ATL TV market.  New York has 23 full powered tv stations. LA 27. Atlanta 14.

But it isn't just the number of stations, but the amount of people they can reach.  Massachusetts (for example) is a much more densely packed area of the country than Georgia. Massachusetts has a population density of 840 per square mile. Georgia, 165.  This means that broadcasts for Celtics basketball can potentially reach 5 times as many people. The endorsements for auto dealerships, restaurants and other local fair pay way more money for lower tiered athletes and for this reason, top tier athletes get more money from their sponsors to play in those type of markets.

Luring top talent to Atlanta used to be much easier when TBS carried Braves/Hawks games all over the country. But since big sports cable started buying and localizing games, smaller markets have seen their big names flee for the sports Meccas.

[hazer]

They're speaking of finding the next Curry or Thompson in the draft and developing them in-house. Not bringing them here as free agents. Talent evaluation and scouting, then player development. Then wins that attract that type of free agent. It's a brilliantly simple concept that's difficult to pull off, but Colonel Schlenk has already done it and states it's his plan to do it again. Warriors were a joke franchise for decades, Oakland is no destination, and CA taxes and cost-of-living are very high. Atlanta is the better destination culturally, climatically, economically, etc. Scout and draft correctly, win games, dangle the ATL lure, and (lastly) with the much-improved and stable ownership/GM/coaching situation some FAs will come. Not the LaBrawnas or Durants. But the Thompsons and Aldridges.

[NBASupes]

You gotta find pieces who fit what you want to do long term. Without that, you aren't making moves the way you would like. 

Curry was a lottery pick for a reason. 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, hazer said:

They're speaking of finding the next Curry or Thompson in the draft and developing them in-house. Not bringing them here as free agents. Talent evaluation and scouting, then player development. Then wins that attract that type of free agent. It's a brilliantly simple concept that's difficult to pull off, but Colonel Schlenk has already done it and states it's his plan to do it again. Warriors were a joke franchise for decades, Oakland is no destination, and CA taxes and cost-of-living are very high. Atlanta is the better destination culturally, climatically, economically, etc. Scout and draft correctly, win games, dangle the ATL lure, and (lastly) with the much-improved and stable ownership/GM/coaching situation some FAs will come. Not the LaBrawnas or Durants. But the Thompsons and Aldridges.

I hear you but how long has Atlanta been  trying use all it's ' culturally, climatically, economically'  - part of that was the previous crazy ownership group.  And I've always maintained you don't change perception overnight after years of sucking. It takes work, lots of work. The ASG spent money on contract (in general) but the basketball support was severely lacking.  

Just when we thought we rounded the corner hiring Ferry (and I'm not saying DF was a saviour just pointing out that  it was more than player acquisition he brought), a basketball guy to do basketball things that had some respect in the League, got an actual scouting department, upgrade the training staff (remember Ferry wanted to fire Blase), develop an actual player development program hiring Coach Bud and put Gearon where he belonged (quiet and irrelevant) - it blew up - so it was another reset. New ownership now in place, then Wes decides to be cute - it's always something - it's like they can't get out of their own way. Then another front office re-organization.  Hopefully we can maintain some stability now.  Everyone  has their role well and truly defined.

The new training facility, a D-League team, renovated Phillips, hopefully a now stable front office and owner -these  are now selling points.  But it won't happen overnight.

 

[Wurider05]

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

IThe new training facility, a D-League team, renovated Phillips, hopefully a now stable front office and owner -these  are now selling points.  But it won't happen overnight.

 

I can agree on that. We are moving in the right direction. 

[hazer]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I hear you but how long has Atlanta been  trying use all it's ' culturally, climatically, economically'  - part of that was the previous crazy ownership group.  And I've always maintained you don't change perception overnight after years of sucking. It takes work, lots of work. The ASG spent money on contract (in general) but the basketball support was severely lacking.  

Just when we thought we rounded the corner hiring Ferry (and I'm not saying DF was a saviour just pointing out that  it was more than player acquisition he brought), a basketball guy to do basketball things that had some respect in the League, got an actual scouting department, upgrade the training staff (remember Ferry wanted to fire Blase), develop an actual player development program hiring Coach Bud and put Gearon where he belonged (quiet and irrelevant) - it blew up - so it was another reset. New ownership now in place, then Wes decides to be cute - it's always something - it's like they can't get out of their own way. Then another front office re-organization.  Hopefully we can maintain some stability now.  Everyone  has their role well and truly defined.

The new training facility, a D-League team, renovated Phillips, hopefully a now stable front office and owner -these  are now selling points.  But it won't happen overnight.

 

They were on their way with Ferryholzer. Then ASG couldn't get out of their own way. This is v 2.0 of that path. With better/stable ownership and what I feel like will be a comparable if not superior GM to Ferry. Keep it stable, scout and draft and develop well, Bud back doing what he does best, win again, THEN the arena improvements and ATL lure will finally come into play. Will take a few years to set. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, hazer said:

They were on their way with Ferryholzer. Then ASG couldn't get out of their own way. This is v 2.0 of that path. With better/stable ownership and what I feel like will be a comparable if not superior GM to Ferry. Keep it stable, scout and draft and develop well, Bud back doing what he does best, win again, THEN the arena improvements and ATL lure will finally come into play. Will take a few years to set. 

That's my hope. 

[hazer]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You gotta find pieces who fit what you want to do long term. Without that, you aren't making moves the way you would like. 

Curry was a lottery pick for a reason. 

You can trade up into the lottery...

[Trout7]

1 hour ago, hazer said:

They're speaking of finding the next Curry or Thompson in the draft and developing them in-house. Not bringing them here as free agents. Talent evaluation and scouting, then player development. Then wins that attract that type of free agent. It's a brilliantly simple concept that's difficult to pull off, but Colonel Schlenk has already done it and states it's his plan to do it again. Warriors were a joke franchise for decades, Oakland is no destination, and CA taxes and cost-of-living are very high. Atlanta is the better destination culturally, climatically, economically, etc. Scout and draft correctly, win games, dangle the ATL lure, and (lastly) with the much-improved and stable ownership/GM/coaching situation some FAs will come. Not the LaBrawnas or Durants. But the Thompsons and Aldridges.

What kind of success has the big market draw brought to the Knicks? LOL.

[AHF]

Nobody wanted to go to Golden State before they hit on their draft picks and made a few good FA/trade acqusitions.  Get yourself an MVP level player, show you can contend for a ring, and that is when the perception changes.

[hazer]

25 minutes ago, Trout7 said:

What kind of success has the big market draw brought to the Knicks? LOL.

Ownership, GMing, coaching, scouting, drafting, player development. THEN the market draw ;)

[KB21]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

You gotta find pieces who fit what you want to do long term. Without that, you aren't making moves the way you would like. 

Curry was a lottery pick for a reason. 

So were Ricky Rubio and Johnny Flynn.  In the same draft.

[KB21]

Here's the thing with the Hawks.  They have a great coach.  Mike Budenholzer is at worst a top 10 coach in the NBA right now.  This year will be the first year of having our own developmental league team.  What this means is that we will have at least 2 players who are 2 way contract players that will be trained on the developmental league team, playing in the same system and style the Hawks use.  That is invaluable.  Part of the problem with these one and done prospects that have rushed to the NBA is that their game is far from complete in most cases.  This gives the Hawks an opportunity where, if they take the risk on one of these guys, they can put them on a two way contract and have them develop in the D-League without having it count against their accrued NBA time.  This will also allow Malik Rose, who is the GM of the D-League team, to be aggressive in finding prospects that can be developed in the system and offer a potential pipe line of rotational players to the parent club.

There has clearly been an increased emphasis put on the support structures of the organization with the new ownership.  A new practice facility, renovated arena, a beefed up analytics department, more emphasis on health and physical function....etc. 

The absolute worst possible thing that could happen to this franchise right now is a prolonged period of losing.

[AHF]

15 minutes ago, KB21 said:

So were Ricky Rubio and Johnny Flynn.  In the same draft.

It is not a surprise or secret that every champion is a team that made the most of key draft assets.  Those teams capture huge value propositions in the draft that you just can't get in FA no matter how good you are unless a group of superstars collude to join your team.  (And even then they aren't likely to join unless you have someone good enough to be an MVP or Finals MVP that you already drafted).

[Lurker]

But if Millsap goes you're naturally going to be a loser, like Brooklyn has been. A loser in the WORST situation possible because it'll be the high lottery.

If Ricky Rubio is a bust, Dennis Schröder is a bust. 

[marco102]

4 hours ago, thecampster said:

Wurider is right on this.  A few years ago this was discussed in detail on this board.  The number one reason top tier athletes choose cities is not the fan base, the weather or even winning tradition.  Elite players choose cities based on marketing opportunities (Lebron as the exception).

We as fans get hung up on winning. But players have a short shelf life. They need to make as much money as possible in the shortest time possible. Cities like LA, NY, Chi, Bos have very large television markets and captive except for LA, captive winter audiences. Good players make as much or more in endorsements based on the city they live in, than their contract.  See this article as one example http://opendorse.com/blog/8-athletes-who-earn-more-money-from-endorsements-than-their-sports-careers/

The biggest player in this with NBA players are sporting wear and shoe makers. Addidas (for example) makes it a point to give out endorsements to its players in their bigger markets and makes sure to have at least one brand shoe in each market. Back when Josh was a big deal in Atlanta and we first talked about Dwight coming here, it was discussed on this board how Adidas held shoe contracts with both and had no one wearing their shoes in other major markets. But the fact remains that if you are selling sneakers in Atlanta vs selling them in LA, the market in LA is vastly bigger than in the ATL TV market.  New York has 23 full powered tv stations. LA 27. Atlanta 14.

But it isn't just the number of stations, but the amount of people they can reach.  Massachusetts (for example) is a much more densely packed area of the country than Georgia. Massachusetts has a population density of 840 per square mile. Georgia, 165.  This means that broadcasts for Celtics basketball can potentially reach 5 times as many people. The endorsements for auto dealerships, restaurants and other local fair pay way more money for lower tiered athletes and for this reason, top tier athletes get more money from their sponsors to play in those type of markets.

Luring top talent to Atlanta used to be much easier when TBS carried Braves/Hawks games all over the country. But since big sports cable started buying and localizing games, smaller markets have seen their big names flee for the sports Meccas.

Let me put this to rest. Atlanta is not a small market. Its the number 10 TV market in the country. Thats NBA and NFL.

Atlanta's problem was terrible management for years and a losing culture. Perception will not change in 4 years. I bet u if the Hawks made it to the NBA finals the last two years, plenty of free agents would flock here deals be damned. Also this Malarky about going to big markets to get exposure basically died with the arrival of social media. West Brook gets all the endorsements he wants in okc and they are a much smaller market than Atlanta.

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

If Ricky Rubio is a bust, Dennis Schröder is a bust. 

One was the #5 pick, has never averaged more than 11 points per game, has a career .503% TS% and has never made the playoffs.  

The other is 3 years younger, was the #17 pick, just averaged 18 per game, put up .533% TS%, and has made the playoffs every season of his career while putting up an impressive 25 points on .588% TS% to go with 8 apg in the playoffs his first time as a starter.

 

I'm quite ready to say that Rubio has been below #5 pick expectations for his impact on the team and his cripplingly bad offense while that Dennis has been great value for the #17 pick and is on path of much greater promise for future improvement.