Fleeced!!!

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, AHF said:

Checked the History.  The Hawks won 25, 17, 27 and 21 games in consecutive seasons then drafted future MVP Bob Pettit #2 overall.  They struggled his first few years but ended up making the finals 3 times and won a championship with him.

1998 Season to 2006 season... No playoffs.  

What happened in 1998?

We traded Mookie, Steve Smith, and Mutombo for younger players and a lottery pick. 

It was a knee jerk reaction and many thought that we would get right back into the playoff mix with Jimmy Jackson, Rider, and Terry...  never happened.

Many thought that having Theo, Big Dog, and Shareef would get us back.. Didn't happen.  We even made a playoff guarantee.. never made it back... 

Again, you will learn to appreciate being in position to move up more than this hope of finding some great star by starting over from scratch.

 

[bleachkit]

No one is claiming we won this trade.  We basically paid them to take him off our hands.

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

No one is claiming we won this trade.  We basically paid them to take him off our hands.

Yeah.. We got fleeced!!  That was the point of the thread.  We traded a hall of famer for a clear loss and now it's the greatest trade in Charlotte history.

When we traded Rumeal Robinson for Mookie, we fleeced the Nets.  We didn't immediately become a winning team but we got the better of that trade and it went down as one of the best trades in the HIstory of the Hawks. 

We have stubborn Hawks fans who don't want to acknowledge how Bad a deal this was and how it didn't help move the ball forward AT ALL for us.   In fact,  Hawks fans would rather make up lies about declining skills and torn up locker rooms than to see the truth for what it is... the truth is that Schlenk wanted to put his mark on this team by building through the tank.  Dennis can't play well with other star players... and Bud knows absolutely nothing about coaching dominant Bigs nor about taking advantage of matchups. 

Here's the thing... with all those things still in place, we're destined to follow the same pattern. 

 

[AHF]

This trade is the equivalent for Charlotte of what Atlanta trading for Kyle Korver was.  You get someone else's player they don't want clogging up their payroll anymore for nothing and in doing so you get someone who can be a significant contributor to your team.  We'll see if it measures up to the Korver trade which produced an All-Star and was a key component to a #1 seed. 

Those types of trades are very nice wins but nothing compared to a deal like acquiring Nique.  Charlotte did not get a young franchise talent.  Describing it as the greatest trade in their franchise history is both premature and more pointedly a measure of just how low that bar is set.  Charlotte's most notable trades historically have been giving up the better player (Kobe, Zo) and fall on someone else's best trades list.  What is the contender for this trade? The article cited here lists other contenders for best trade in franchise history being trades for Josh McRoberts and Courtney Lee.  Doesn't that say everything about how low the bar is set?

[High5]

Bobcats fans are already deep into the Dwight vs. Cody Zeller debate. Some want Dwight benched outright:

I've had enough of Dwight in with the starters already.

He simply doesn't add enough on defense to make up for tanking your offense. This is getting ridiculous when we have Cody just sitting on the bench all game

 

Some want him to pave the road for Zeller:

I like having Howard start- he can set the tone by blocking shots at the rim or getting a couple big dunks early, but I want him to get the bulk of his minutes vs 2nd units. Cody needs more time with the starters, and should be closing games unless there's an Andre Drummond, DeMarcus Cousins, or Hassan Whiteside on the other side.

I agree. Dwight can wear the starters down a bit and get them in foul trouble early. Pull him after like 6-7 minutes to get Cody some early running the floor time. Cody should be the closer too.

And then there are posts like this:

To the people calling for Cody to start. I totally get where you are coming from and I agree that Cody is the better option, but benching Howard just isn't really an option. Trading for Dwight and then benching him would be like trading for a grenade then pulling the pin out and expecting it to not blow up in your face.

Many are still cautiously optimistic, but that won't last at this rate. They do need to get healthier before getting too down, though. 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

This trade is the equivalent for Charlotte of what Atlanta trading for Kyle Korver was.  You get someone else's player they don't want clogging up their payroll anymore for nothing and in doing so you get someone who can be a significant contributor to your team.  We'll see if it measures up to the Korver trade which produced an All-Star and was a key component to a #1 seed. 

Those types of trades are very nice wins but nothing compared to a deal like acquiring Nique.  Charlotte did not get a young franchise talent.  Describing it as the greatest trade in their franchise history is both premature and more pointedly a measure of just how low that bar is set.  Charlotte's most notable trades historically have been giving up the better player (Kobe, Zo) and fall on someone else's best trades list.  What is the contender for this trade? The article cited here lists other contenders for best trade in franchise history being trades for Josh McRoberts and Courtney Lee.  Doesn't that say everything about how low the bar is set?

I'll jump on your subject changing tangent for a second.   I thought about that Nique trade and I thought that maybe that was the best trade that our franchise ever made... then I thought. We traded John Drew for a Rookie Nique.  Drew was 27 years old and he was a very good player.   He averaged about 18.5 ppg.  Drugs aside, he put up good numbers.  When he went to Utah, he put up 21.5 ppg and kept about the same FG%.  We however, went from a team that had a first round playoff exit to having a first round playoff exit.  Nique didn't really start moving the needle until we put a team around him... not to say that Roundfield and Johnson wasn't enough...  But the 85 Hawks team was much different than the 82 Hawks team.   And that's when Nique started hitting his prime. 

Now... I would enjoy another trade like that where we trade a commodity like Sap or Howard for a highly talented rookie and we want on his development.  But to trade those guys just to create space is stupid.

 

[rd79]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Dennis can't play well with other star players...

Diesel called Dennis a star!   

[AHF]

18 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I'll jump on your subject changing tangent for a second.   I thought about that Nique trade and I thought that maybe that was the best trade that our franchise ever made... then I thought. We traded John Drew for a Rookie Nique.  Drew was 27 years old and he was a very good player.   He averaged about 18.5 ppg.  Drugs aside, he put up good numbers.  When he went to Utah, he put up 21.5 ppg and kept about the same FG%.  We however, went from a team that had a first round playoff exit to having a first round playoff exit.  Nique didn't really start moving the needle until we put a team around him... not to say that Roundfield and Johnson wasn't enough...  But the 85 Hawks team was much different than the 82 Hawks team.   And that's when Nique started hitting his prime. 

Now... I would enjoy another trade like that where we trade a commodity like Sap or Howard for a highly talented rookie and we want on his development.  But to trade those guys just to create space is stupid.

 

I disliked the trade.  Thought we should have gotten some return.  That said, keeping Howard only made sense if we were willing to overspend to keep Sap.  And that puts you on a track to 40 some wins and a first round playoff exit with no cap space or real upside.  I get why we preferred to move him.  Just didn't like the deal.

[thecampster]

 

16 hours ago, AHF said:

Checked the History.  The Hawks won 25, 17, 27 and 21 games in consecutive seasons then drafted future MVP Bob Pettit #2 overall.  They struggled his first few years but ended up making the finals 3 times and won a championship with him.

Sounds good....7 year plan before we have a winning record again.  I'm sure Hawks' fans will be just peachy with waiting 7+ years for a winning season.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I disliked the trade.  Thought we should have gotten some return.  That said, keeping Howard only made sense if we were willing to overspend to keep Sap.  And that puts you on a track to 40 some wins and a first round playoff exit with no cap space or real upside.  I get why we preferred to move him.  Just didn't like the deal.

I don't know if you can make that final assessment.  Let's say we kept him and let's say we overspent to keep Sap.  The question is do we come back to the PG problem.. Do we come back to the Coach that doesn't know how to use DH8?  Or  Do we get a coach who knows How to use him and either get the PG in line or get a new PG?

What the early season has shown is that DH is not declining as fast as we said... But he had a coach who had no idea of how to use him. 

[capstone21]

For us Dwight was terrible on offense ... he was lazy on defense and couldn't hit a free throw.  He didn't really do anything in a Hawks uniform of note but rebound.  He disappeared when he was on the court and we often played better when he was on the bench.   Charlotte didn't fleece us as they don't seem to be doing that well either ... he seems a little more interested this year but still he isn't really an impact player anymore even though he is being paid like one.

[Lurker]

13 minutes ago, capstone21 said:

For us Dwight was terrible on offense ... he was lazy on defense and couldn't hit a free throw.  He didn't really do anything in a Hawks uniform of note but rebound.  He disappeared when he was on the court and we often played better when he was on the bench.   Charlotte didn't fleece us as they don't seem to be doing that well either ... he seems a little more interested this year but still he isn't really an impact player anymore even though he is being paid like one.

So I guess that goes on Kemba, eh? It's Kemba's fault the Charlotte Hornets are not a good offensive team.

[Lurker]

Let's be real, the exact same thing is already beginning in Charlotte. They are complaining that their starting offense is not as good as other units and blaming it on Dwight. Plus, they have a mediocre record. Batum ain't back but that ain't a good team. It's a mediocre team that if they even make the playoffs, will lose in the first round.

Either be a Charlotte Hornets/Dwight Howard fan or face reality, please.

[StephenHawking]

vor 44 Minuten, Lurker sagte:

Let's be real, the exact same thing is already beginning in Charlotte. They are complaining that their starting offense is not as good as other units and blaming it on Dwight. Plus, they have a mediocre record. Batum ain't back but that ain't a good team. It's a mediocre team that if they even make the playoffs, will lose in the first round.

Either be a Charlotte Hornets/Dwight Howard fan or face reality, please.

Yeah it's literally the same arguably even a worse situation as to ours last year. We overperformed to start the year. And the Howard bashing started to kick in after we started to take Ls. 

Lmao Hornets fans be starting the same thing after a couple of games. 

Isn't a good sign if you ask me. I'll just wait and see how the situation over there in Charlotte develops.

[StephenHawking]

vor 22 Stunden, TheNorthCydeRises sagte:

LOL @ worst since his rookie year.

He's averaging 15 ppg - 13 rebs on 59% FG.  His FT% sucks at 42%.  His whopping 4 turnovers a game is what is killing his efficiency numbers.

But let's not act like this guy is playing horribly. He's doing what Dwight normally does.  Eat the glass on both ends.  Get easy baskets from put backs or dunks.  And acts as the defensive presence in the paint.

We';re 2 - 9.  You think we'd be 2 - 9 if we had Dwight?

Maybe 3-8. I'd give ya one W.

We lost every game so far in the 4th quarter. Guess who's not on the floor to help out at that time?

Also I gotta admit I would've hoped for a better deal out there but if that's what it takes to get Howard out than so be it. I'm sure Schlenk didn't pass on better deals. 

What would be the better situation? 

Having Howard Collins or having Dedmon Collins Plumlee? 

First situation: positives: -Howard great presence. Can effectively  play bully ball against a handful of starting Cs in the league

-maybe gives us 5 more wins on the season 

Negatives: -Would cause problems if Collins would start in his place in the 2nd half of the season 

- can't teach Collins anything because his game solely relies on his physical attributes

 

Situation 2: positives: -Wouldn't cause trouble if shifted back to energizer bench role 

-Can be traded at any point

-can teach Collins how to run the PnR and on shooting touch (form looks excellent)

-instead of Howard you have Plumlee on the payroll who at least doesn't care at all whether he gets playing time or not.

Negatives: 

-maybe won't win you the same amount of games as howard (big maybe) 

 

To cut a long story short: it's a good trade for us. Would've hoped for a better one which wasn't there.

 

 

[Thomas]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

What the early season has shown is that DH is not declining as fast as we said... But he had a coach who had no idea of how to use him. 

Apparently SVG is the only one who ever did have a clue, uh not really. Thats assuming Dwight's age, attitude and injuries have had nothing to do with various problems at any point. If SVG is your ceiling for the playoffs and you ran him off then "Sayonara" there Dwight. Only pissed about losing an opportunity to draft Jordan Bell or a few others because we swapped draft positions in the second round this past draft. That stuff is over with though whether we like it or not.  

[Thomas]

19 hours ago, Diesel said:

Yeah.. We got fleeced!!  That was the point of the thread.  We traded a hall of famer for a clear loss and now it's the greatest trade in Charlotte history.

Not really the bummer that Nique for Danny A-hole Manning was but just the same Charlotte has no measuring stick really other than they coughed up Kobe for Divacs and that leans heavily in the wrong direction don't you think. They smoked us the 31 for the 41 and that is a pisser but really its a new day and Dwight will ride the bench late in games late in the season or maybe even the playoffs for someone the heck else.   

[rd79]

Y'all know that a deal doesn't always has a winner and a loser? So even if that was the best trade ever for Charlotte, that doesn't necessarily mean it was bad for the Hawks...

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

The Duck quacking about Dwight?  Sounds like some resentment towards the Hawks for both of these guys. lol

[NBASupes]

I am on their forum, they been trashing Dwight, Diesel. There is a couple people who like him which reminds me of you.