The Tank Thread

[davis171]

18 minutes ago, KB21 said:

If he had simply resigned Paul and done nothing else, that would have at least signaled that he was at least trying to win some games and not making moves to intentionally lose games.  If he resigns Paul and the Hawks lose because Paul gets hurt and misses games, I can accept that.  That is something that happens organically.  It is not a forced move.  It is not tanking, which I absolutely deplore.  Tanking cheats the fans who pay their hard earned money to watch this team play out of a good experience at the game.  

What Travis Schlenk did this off season was let the team's best player walk without even making a counter offer to him or even offering to match what is a 2 year deal, and he went about the off season making moves with the intent to lose and improve draft position.  Even if the Hawks land Luka Doncic, who I love, and Doncic becomes the European LeBron James in the the NBA, what the Hawks are doing to get him is unacceptable to me.  

Sports should be about doing everything you can to compete and win games.  The idea of intentionally losing games should never cross anyone's mind, and this is why I am for the NBA employing the most strict policy it can when it comes to tanking.  Take away the draft pick of the team who has tanked.  In my opinion, the Hawks should lose their draft pick in this year's draft.

See I have a totally different idea of what happened. Paul didn't deserve anything. Pierce didn't retire a Celtic. Jordan didn't retire a bull. I'm all about the way Boston (Celtics and Pats) builds their rosters in the NFL and NBA. We have a number we are willing to bring guys back at but if it compromises future ability to build you can't bring the player back. 30 million to an old Sap compromises the chance to sign free agents this year and is the exact opposite of what Ferry did by signing guys on great deals to build that championship team (you know I'm right). The organization messed up when they knew he was going to ask for 30 million and not trying to get as much assets as possible for the aging all star ala a lite version what Boston did. We may have still slipped into the playoffs last year depending on the return and been able to compete this year that isn't on Schlenk imo. Can you at least see where I'm coming from?

Edited March 7, 2018 by davis171

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, davis171 said:

See I have a totally different idea of what happened. Paul didn't deserve anything. Pierce didn't retire a Celtic. Jordan didn't retire a bull. I'm all about the way Boston (Celtics and Pats) builds their rosters in the NFL and NBA. We have a number we are willing to bring guys back at but if it compromises future ability to build you can't bring the player back. 30 million to an old Sap compromises the chance to sign free agents this year and is the exact opposite of what Ferry did by signing guys on great deals to build that championship team (you know I'm right). The organization messed up when they knew he was going to ask for 30 million and not trying to get as much assets as possible for the aging all star ala a lite version what Boston did. We may have still slipped into the playoffs last year depending on the return and been able to compete this year that isn't on Schlenk imo. Can you at least see where I'm coming from?

No, because Paul Millsap should have been resigned, period.

[davis171]

Just now, KB21 said:

No, because Paul Millsap should have been resigned, period.

So Boston should have not traded KG and Paul Pierce for the haul they got?

[benhillboy]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Just for kicks and giggles, here are the current Hawks by position, using the same NBA efficiency stat

 

Schröder:  12th

Bazemore:  17th

Prince:  24th

Dedmon:  22nd

Plumlee:  31st

 

Delaney:  62nd

Taylor:  75th

Collins:  20th

Muscala:  51st

 

Ilyasova: 34th

Belinelli:  41st

Not seeing the list I would’ve bumped Dedmon, Illy, and Belli up a few spots because the system benefits them a lot.  Baze and Prince are clearly boosted by great defensive and three point shooting attributes, respectively.  I’m sure a few of the 4s above Collins couldn’t keep him off the glass if their life depended on it.  

Taylor’s advanced numbers have puzzled me all season.  Relentless driver with the team’s highest FT rate and good defensive effort shouldn’t be at an 11.6 PER and -2.6 OBPM.  Advanced stats usually make miniature guys who aren’t All-Defensive look bad due to poor shot challenges and negligible rebounding.  He can easily boost his profile to an average PER and VORP by improving his three pointer and steals a little.

Edited March 7, 2018 by benhillboy

[Royjr9]

48 minutes ago, KB21 said:

No, because Paul Millsap should have been resigned, period.

No he should not have been at least not for anything more than 22 mil.

[davis171]

31 minutes ago, Royjr9 said:

No he should not have been at least not for anything more than 22 mil.

100% agree. You can't give a third of your cap to 1 player at 33 Unless his name is LeBron James or he takes you over the hump for a title run. The hawks should be trying to emulate the off season after 2013-14 of as much as possible when heading into free agency this year cheap interesting prospects that don't get as much as they would have thought.

Edited March 7, 2018 by davis171

[MaceCase]

Ferry’s plan was to remain flexible enough to pursue a big name free agent thus the manageable contracts he handed out.  We can’t sit here and call Schlenk a fool for not signing an older Millsap to his 3rd deal with the Hawks when there was a distinct possibility that Ferry would not have even signed him to his 2nd deal.

[AHF]

10 hours ago, MaceCase said:

Ferry’s plan was to remain flexible enough to pursue a big name free agent thus the manageable contracts he handed out.  We can’t sit here and call Schlenk a fool for not signing an older Millsap to his 3rd deal with the Hawks when there was a distinct possibility that Ferry would not have even signed him to his 2nd deal.

100% agree.  Ferry was trying to pursue a path like the Rockets.  They spent years trying so hard to trade for a stud and finally got a deal that landed them their MVP-level player.  Ironically, they only landed Harden because their deal for Pau Gasol blew up.  Had they landed Gasol, they would not be close to where they are today. 

IMO, Ferry would not have signed Sap to a 3rd deal given where the team was (.500) and where Sap's salary was going to be.  Ferry would have likely flipped people for assets and would have made smarter decisions with FA (like passing on Bazemore - another move that the Rockets tried to do that they failed on which ended up saving their bacon).

[KB21]

49 minutes ago, AHF said:

100% agree.  Ferry was trying to pursue a path like the Rockets.  They spent years trying so hard to trade for a stud and finally got a deal that landed them their MVP-level player.  Ironically, they only landed Harden because their deal for Pau Gasol blew up.  Had they landed Gasol, they would not be close to where they are today. 

IMO, Ferry would not have signed Sap to a 3rd deal given where the team was (.500) and where Sap's salary was going to be.  Ferry would have likely flipped people for assets and would have made smarter decisions with FA (like passing on Bazemore - another move that the Rockets tried to do that they failed on which ended up saving their bacon).

Well, you know what.  If you make those moves and failed, well, at least you tried and kept yourself from tanking.  That's a direct contrast to signing Luke Babbitt instead of someone that can actually help you win.

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Well, you know what.  If you make those moves and failed, well, at least you tried and kept yourself from tanking.  That's a direct contrast to signing Luke Babbitt instead of someone that can actually help you win.

Would have liked to see Ferry see things through.  We made a mistake letting him go then Budcox made a mess of things after he was gone....although I think letting him go actually isn't really a "mistake" in the usual sense of the word.  Ferry was sacrificed on the alter of internal politics and power plays by Michael Gearon. 

[Sothron]

21 hours ago, AHF said:

100% agree.  Ferry was trying to pursue a path like the Rockets.  They spent years trying so hard to trade for a stud and finally got a deal that landed them their MVP-level player.  Ironically, they only landed Harden because their deal for Pau Gasol blew up.  Had they landed Gasol, they would not be close to where they are today. 

IMO, Ferry would not have signed Sap to a 3rd deal given where the team was (.500) and where Sap's salary was going to be.  Ferry would have likely flipped people for assets and would have made smarter decisions with FA (like passing on Bazemore - another move that the Rockets tried to do that they failed on which ended up saving their bacon).

Ferry would have traded Horford and Millsap both before their deals expired. The epic blunder of losing two All Star big men for literally nothing is what is killing our team in the initial rebuild. The assets we should have garnered from them would be a year or two years in development under Bud right now.

Instead, we have what we have. A top 15ish starting PG, an ok wing player finally playing up to his big contract and a huge, huge question mark in Prince. Collins looks like a keeper but Bud is absolutely not playing or developing him like one.

If we flip Dennis at the draft or in the offseason it wouldn't shock me.

[Diesel]

20 hours ago, jy23 said:

Let’s try this again...anybody wanna tell me a team that won a championship without lottery players? Then we can keep having this discussion. If not y’all are talking in circles for the hell of it 

Without it's own Lottery players = Lakers, Pistons, to start. 

 

[Diesel]

20 hours ago, AHF said:

We have had a series of GMs who were collectively the worst drafters in NBA history.  Regression to the mean suggests that if you hire new people to perform this function that we shouldn't expect to continue to be that terrible at drafting.  Being that great or that terrible for that long is difficult to sustain.

I

A lot of other Treadmill Lottery teams say the same.   The fact of the matter is that if your GM doesn't have a blueprint that makes sense, it doesn't matter where you draft.   Why is it that stars like Anthony Davis and John Wall have not sniffed the finals?  Their GMs were not the worst drafters in history, however, they have just not put a team that can win games around Davis.   Look at Sacramento.  A tale of a GM who could draft talent but team does nothing but lose that talent over time.   If your GM is not building an atmosphere for winning, then all he's doing is becoming a feeder team for the winning teams that never tank.

San Antonio never tanks. 

Houston never tanks. 

There are others who remain at the top and they do so because they recognized that tanking is not the way.

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

San Antonio never tanks. 

Houston never tanks.

Where did David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Olajuwon get drafted in their respective drafts.  Were they number 1 draft picks?

[AHF]

19 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Without it's own Lottery players = Lakers, Pistons, to start. 

 

The Lakers drafted the following guys in the lottery - Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Kobe Bryant.  They don't have any rings without those guys in the last 30 years.  

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

Where did David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Olajuwon get drafted in their respective drafts.  Were they number 1 draft picks?

#1 overall picks.  The seasons that led to those and other high lottery picks were:

Spurs - consecutive seasons of 35, 28, 31, 21 wins; another season of 20 wins (#1, #1, #3 picks)

Houston - consecutive seasons of 14 and 29 wins (consecutive #1 overall picks)

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

#1 overall picks.  The seasons that led to those and other high lottery picks were:

Spurs - consecutive seasons of 35, 28, 31, 21 wins; another season of 20 wins (#1, #1, #3 picks)

Houston - consecutive seasons of 14 and 29 wins (consecutive #1 overall picks)

So what is Diesel talking about??

[Diesel]

21 hours ago, AHF said:

I agree with you.  We didn't have the talent to sustain losses of significant pieces.  Because our team did not have any transcendent talents, any single injury made things harder for our guys on both sides of the floor and we needed to be at absolute maximum efficiency to think about contending.  Losing those guys was too much for us to ensure we could even make it out of the early rounds of the playoffs let alone knock off LeBron or Golden State.  

This is true.  However, fans are the main ones saying that we "played over our heads".   The reason why the regular season meant something at all is because it showed the beauty of basketball.  We played with that and we were almost unstoppable.   To the claim that it requires a transcedent talent to win at that level.. Why did Nique never make it that far?  You have to realize that the blueprint is more important than the pieces.. but the pieces are very important. 

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Where did David Robinson, Tim Duncan and Olajuwon get drafted in their respective drafts.  Were they number 1 draft picks?

Tim Duncan was a case of Injured players. 

The thing about Robinson and how he worked so well is that after he was drafted, he went into the Navy.  While he spent a year away, the Spurs got another #1. 

So what we should do is get a number 1 pick and Pipe his knee...  Then we can be like Philly and San Antonio.  Otherwise, if you have a fairly good talent, you move into mediocrity way to quick for tanking to work. 

[Peoriabird]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Tim Duncan was a case of Injured players. 

The thing about Robinson and how he worked so well is that after he was drafted, he went into the Navy.  While he spent a year away, the Spurs got another #1. 

So what we should do is get a number 1 pick and Pipe his knee...  Then we can be like Philly and San Antonio.  Otherwise, if you have a fairly good talent, you move into mediocrity way to quick for tanking to work. 

Your explanation makes no sense...They were #1 picks in the draft regardless of the circumstances.  Those number one picks set those franchises up for success over a long period of time.