The Tank Thread

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Buzzard said:

Travis is probably a good money man and a good wheeler and dealer. One of the stories I read was Jerry West told him to stick with the front office when he was contemplating coaching. A money mans first order of business is to make sure the quality of the product is on par with the cost and price of the product.

With Bazemore and Dennis on the books we are probably still not in line with that. My reasoning is simple, they are non all stars being paid all star money. I think he has a plan and job one is to get the books in order. Job two is to accumulate assets and talent. Job three is to make all that work together to put a winning team on the floor.

You say he does not have a plan. I think he does. Rookie contracts help get your books in order. The draft is the easiest and cheapest way to accumulate talent that can exceed cost. They help balance the negatives of Dennis and Bazemore. He had to have a fire sale. Paying Bazemore, Howard, and Dennis 55 million a year for a inferior product was not a option. And no one could expect him to tack on 30 million more for a aging SAP either.

Come on, that is 85 million a year for four players; only one is a all-star and he is the oldest one. Any GM with half a brain would have done something similar.

Nope.  No plan. This is the same thing that most new GMs do.  Hell BK did it.  Ferry Did it.  This is not some great master plan from the golden state play book, this is another GM trying to get himself a clear book and cap flexibility.   Without knowing the culture here and without having any valuable pieces or getting any value in return, it's a longterm mediocre plan.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, CBAreject said:

That’s a great question.  If you moved all in with pocket aces before the flop and lost, was it the right move?  If you say no, you’re a results person.  If you say yes, you’re a process person.  I’m process person.  The correct process (read, decision) does not guarantee success.  

I'm glad you are a process person.  But you didn't move all in with pocket Aces, you folded with a King and a 10.   And you said, last time I had a King and a 10, I didn't win.   So, I might as well just not try. 

 

[Peoriabird]

3 hours ago, Buzzard said:

With Bazemore and Dennis on the books we are probably still not in line with that. My reasoning is simple, they are non all stars being paid all star money.

I don't know too many all stars making less than $18 million per year

[Lurker]

All of this really goes back to the wonderful Dwight Howard plan that backfired horrendously and really would have regardless of who the PG was. Honestly it wasn't a bad idea in hindsight, but it just backfired so horribly. It would have been true to the idea of staying the course of being a playoff team and gathering assets to try to become better if Horford didn't get mad at Howard being brought in/not being given the years he wanted. 

If you go with an A's or Rays like plan in the NBA, pretty much what you have to do is be ready to look for undervalued players to pick off in FAgency and be ready to sell to accumulate more assets when the players that were undervalued are not as undervalued anymore. The idea seemed pretty likely to be to do this with Millsap. But yet Horford got mad, this ended up not being a possibility, and here we are.

It hasn't produced a championship yet, but you should get the idea, I prefer the Houston method over flat out tanking. I prefer what Indiana did last offseason, too. But the issue is, you have to have legitimate ASSETS to pull it off. Not just a hope, prayer, and a love for winning. 

The Hawks tried to create a situation like this. It predictably, since Georgia sports always has absolutely terrible luck, flopped horrendously. There was no pathway from last season's roster outside of small moves, like letting Hardaway Jr walk, still signing Dedmon, maybe getting Gerald Green off of the street, and draft moves. At best you likely have a 45 win team that is a first round exit, at worst the "stat correction" that I've seen happen a lot with players and teams that get lucky happens and you see a 33-35 win team. There's no such thing as culture winning out in the NBA, that's absolute BS, it's the most cutthroat league in sports. And in either case, it'd be another season out from one that was fueled by a guy that was gone, and another season with major players on the team getting older.

Fin.

[High5]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

No... I'm not asking you to explore other plans...I'm asking you to evaluate this one.   There are always other scenarios that we could have manufactured from those other plans but this is the plan we have so is it a silly plan?  I mean, you say it's silly to ask for a timeline for the success of this plan.. that must mean that this is a silly plan.. Now you say that this wasn't a plan at all, it was just something that seemed like the right thing to do to save capspace??  Is that a plan?

 

 

You’re not making any sense.

[marco102]

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

Then here is the difference between me and you.  I don’t look at this situation and say, well, it will work this time.  I look at the history of teams that have started at this point, and that history isn’t pretty.  

History tells us that this will be a long process that will not end with the championship you desire.  

Did I say it would work? I said the team has tanked.  End of conversation, nothing you can do to change it, nothing I can do to change it, nothing Diesel can do to change it.  So why are ya'll bitching about something that's already happened like it's going to change it.  We are here deal with it and hope for the best.  That's all we are doing hoping for the best. If it doesn't work, I will still be a Hawks fan and so will you so stop bombarding us with the same statements like we do not know your stance. 

[CBAreject]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I'm glad you are a process person.  But you didn't move all in with pocket Aces, you folded with a King and a 10.   And you said, last time I had a King and a 10, I didn't win.   So, I might as well just not try. 

 

That might be a good analogy if nobody had ever won with KT and the hand never improved after the flop 

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Did I say it would work? I said the team has tanked.  End of conversation, nothing you can do to change it, nothing I can do to change it, nothing Diesel can do to change it.  So why are ya'll bitching about something that's already happened like it's going to change it.  We are here deal with it and hope for the best.  That's all we are doing hoping for the best. If it doesn't work, I will still be a Hawks fan and so will you so stop bombarding us with the same statements like we do not know your stance. 

I’ll stop when others decide to stop talking about how great tanking is.  

[Buzzard]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

I don't know too many all stars making less than $18 million per year

There is a few who make what or less than Bazemore makes or is going to make by the end of his contract.

Kyrie Irving 18.8

Kawal Leonard 18.8

Jimmy Butler 18.6

John Wall 18.06

Demarcus Cousins 18.06

Klay Thompson 17.6

Draymond Green 16.4

Paul Gasol 16.00

Kemba Walker 12.0

I just did a quick search on this site and can say Baze is way over priced in my opinion. There are probably no less than 40 players on non rookie contracts making less I would much rather have as a starter. And probably another 40 I would take for Baze just to get a salary dump.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/players/

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Buzzard

[marco102]

10 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I’ll stop when others decide to stop talking about how great tanking is.  

Lol, still won't change the fact we tanked.  Like I said. I'm dealing in facts and you are dealing in probabilities which aren't facts. Until you can 100% prove me wrong , then I will HOPE the Hawks pick the best prospect in the draft and he becomes the generational talent we need.  Hopefully, they hit on all of their picks.  

Like I said, I get where your stance is on tanking. I was not necessarily for it, but it happened and now I'm hoping for the best.  

If you can hate on us for hoping for the best, then by all means go ahead.   

EDIT: As I've stated, I don't care how long this process takes either.  Sports are just entertainment, I can find plenty of other entertainment if the Hawks are bad.

Edited April 1, 2018 by marco102

[Peoriabird]

8 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

There is a few who make what or less than Bazemore makes or is going to make by the end of his contract.

Kyrie Irving 18.8

Jimmy Butler 18.6

John Wall 18.06

Demarcus Cousins 18.06

Klay Thompson 17.6

Draymond Green 16.4

Paul Gasol 16.00

Kemba Walker 12.0

I just did a quick search on this site and can say Baze is way over priced in my opinion. There are probably no less than 40 players on non rookie contracts I would much rather have as a starter. And probably another 40 I would take for Baze just to get a salary dump.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/players/

 

Butler  19.3

Paul Gasol isn't an all star anymore

Baze's Salary 16.90

[Buzzard]

23 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Butler  19.3

Paul Gasol isn't an all star anymore

Baze's Salary 16.90

I have Butler as 18,697 rounded up. Bazemore gets bumped to 18 next season and 19.2 in his player option year. If we were talking about a million dollar difference and a 5 million a year contract that would be a substantial 20% difference. As it is, it is roughly only a 5% difference between multiple all stars, Wall, Butler, Thompson, Irving, Green, Cousins and Leonard who I left off the first time vs possible starter or role player Bazemore.

I don't get it to be honest. Most here went nuts when the Raps paid Carroll 14 million; yet some here think Bazemore is worth 18 million over the course of his contract.

I'd a rather kept Carroll.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Buzzard

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I have Butler as 18,697 rounded up. Bazemore gets bumped to 18 next season and 19.2 in his player option year. If we were talking about a million dollar difference and a 5 million a year contract that would be a substantial 20% difference. As it is, it is roughly only a 5% difference between multiple all stars, Wall, Butler, Thompson, Irving, Green, vs possible starter or role player Bazemore.

I don't get it to be honest. Most here went nuts when the Raps paid Carroll 14 million; yet some here think Bazemore is worth 18 million over the course of his contract.

I'd a rather kept Carroll.

You can't compare someone's last year's salary with would be 3 years from now to someone's current salary...Plus you are only listing the all stars on the cheapest deal not the average of all of the all star salaries

[Buzzard]

16 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

You can't compare someone's last year's salary with would be 3 year from now to someone's current salary...Plus you are only listing the all stars on the cheapest deal not the average of all of the all star salaries

But I can and that is my point. We paid Bazemore like he was going to be an all-star. In the same manner that Wall, Green, Thompson, Cousins, Irving, Butler, and Leonard's salary reflect what those players were thought of by their organization.

Being from GSW, I am sure Travis just shakes his head every time he thinks about cap space. Come on man, Bazemore makes more than Klay Thompson and Draymond Green. WTF were you thinking Bud?

Edited April 1, 2018 by Buzzard

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, Buzzard said:

But I can and that is my point. We paid Bazemore like he was going to be an all-star. Wall, Green, Thompson, Cousins, Irving, Butler, and Leonard reflect what Bud thought of him. In the same manner those players were thought of by their organization.

Being from GSW, I am sure Travis just shakes his head every time he thinks about cap space. Come on man, Bazemore makes more than Klay Thompson and Draymond Green. WTF where you thinking Bud?

He won't after Klay's next contract...Baze benefited from that sudden increase in cap space years...The others were unfortunately under contract already.

[Buzzard]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

He won't after Klay's next contract...Baze benefited from that sudden increase in cap space years...The others were unfortunately under contract already.

My opinion is Bazemore benefited from Buds lack of experience in the same manner Carroll did not benefit from Ferry's good experience in the front office with the Spurs. If Ferry was still running the show I have no doubt he would have let Bazemore walk before paying him 18 million a year. No doubt in my mind about that at all.

[davis171]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

I’ll stop when others decide to stop talking about how great tanking is.  

No one has said tanking guarantees anything

[AHF]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

I'm glad you are a process person.  But you didn't move all in with pocket Aces, you folded with a King and a 10.   And you said, last time I had a King and a 10, I didn't win.   So, I might as well just not try. 

 

You realize that what the Hawks are doing is becoming the standard play for franchises in multiple sports due to the results, right?  Warriors, Cubs, Cavs, Royals, Astros, etc. are your champions the last 3 years and all were made possible by sucking it up in the lottery or top of the draft for years prior to their ascension.

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

You realize that what the Hawks are doing is becoming the standard play for franchises in multiple sports due to the results, right?  Warriors, Cubs, Cavs, Royals, Astros, etc. are your champions the last 3 years and all were made possible by sucking it up in the lottery or top of the draft for years prior to their ascension.

Even the Braves look light years better this year!

[Buzzard]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

Nope.  No plan. This is the same thing that most new GMs do.  Hell BK did it.  Ferry Did it.  This is not some great master plan from the golden state play book, this is another GM trying to get himself a clear book and cap flexibility.   Without knowing the culture here and without having any valuable pieces or getting any value in return, it's a longterm mediocre plan.

The culture sucks; just look around you at the empty seats when you are at a game. It is not like we had a top 10 player on our roster to build around. You don't build championships around a 4/5 seed whose best player ( Millsap )  is going to be 33 years old by seasons end. Maybe you could if it was Bron, Duncan, or Durant. But not Millsap, I am sorry.

There is nothing to sugar coat about the direction we were headed sans Horford and a aging SAP. We had three years of SAP, Horford, Korver, and Teague and could not get that final piece. Horford walks and your plan to go three more years trying to add a final two pieces now. Makes no sense man; defies logic.

We have Schröder ( for now ), we have Collins, we have a lottery pick and two more 1st this year. That is more than what BK started with and he had us back in the playoffs after year four.