The Tank Thread

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

We would have paid the tax this year with both of them.  That is just avoiding being a moron.  Tax line was roughly $119M.  This team might not even make the playoffs.  Why would you pay the tax when we weren't willing to pay the tax in prior years?

When we have never been willing to pay the tax, you aren't saving money by only slightly increasing your opening day payroll.

 

 

Yeah.. so then you take this "avoid being a moron" argument that you make... Make the team pathetic.  This year, we're like 1.3 Million over the Salary Cap.  BUt we're about 18-19 Million under the Luxury tax.  That's money that get to bring home.   What  KB said is true.  They sale the fans on tank.  They allow the GM to clean the slate.  The owners however make a Clipper like profit.   That's why the Clips sucked for so long.   They were more interested in the BRI and the championship and being in the lottery and bringing in the next great players kept fans interested.   Get ready for a few years of the next great player. 

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Yeah.. so then you take this "avoid being a moron" argument that you make... Make the team pathetic.  This year, we're like 1.3 Million over the Salary Cap.  BUt we're about 18-19 Million under the Luxury tax.  That's money that get to bring home.   What  KB said is true.  They sale the fans on tank.  They allow the GM to clean the slate.  The owners however make a Clipper like profit.   That's why the Clips sucked for so long.   They were more interested in the BRI and the championship and being in the lottery and bringing in the next great players kept fans interested.   Get ready for a few years of the next great player. 

When was the last time the team paid the luxury tax.  You really expected them to start doing it to bring back a team that had a negative point differential?  That was going to be the first time we paid the tax but for the fact that we swapped directions?  Give me a break.

You can pin the team sucking this year on the decision to let people go, trade people and retool but this post-hac money saving argument is BS.  We tried to compete last year and fell woefully short of being a contender but still weren't willing to pay the tax then so why would we do it after the team disappointed by owner so much he blessed tearing the team down?

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

When was the last time the team paid the luxury tax.  You really expected them to start doing it to bring back a team that had a negative point differential?  That was going to be the first time we paid the tax but for the fact that we swapped directions?  Give me a break.

You can pin the team sucking this year on the decision to let people go, trade people and retool but this post-hac money saving argument is BS.  We tried to compete last year and fell woefully short of being a contender but still weren't willing to pay the tax then so why would we do it after the team disappointed by owner so much he blessed tearing the team down?

Strawman.  Nobody said that.   I said that they were making money.. and letting the fanbase believe that it's all about the tank.  Let the GM clean house and look forward to more days making money.  Does this mean that they look for an expedient plan back to Championship calibre... I doubt it.  They are owners because they want to make money.    It we take 4 to 5 years before we're ready to strike out and spend on FAcy.. I don't think that they have a problem with that.  It's the Belkin Plan all over again.  Keep the team on the cheap and stay in the lottery. 

[Diesel]

For all you tankers who believe that it's an immediate jump back into the championship picture... consider this.

Schlenk and our ownership probably have mapped out a plan that looks like this:

1.  4 -5  years of High and Mid level Lottery picks. 

2.  in the 4 to 5 years seek FAs.

then start team building to get into the championship picture.

the first question is why?

Why?

1.  They want to wait out Lebron and Golden State.   Lebron has maybe 3 more years of viability and the Warriors have about 3 more years before their contracts tear them apart. 

2.  Making Money.  own a franchise is about making money... not necessarily winning.   How much does an owner get for winning?  How much does an owner get for keeping his team cheap and capitalizing off of BRI and TV Contracts?

3. Building a Fanbase.   The Atlanta Fanbase is fickle.   You see it in every sport.  The Hawks ownership recognize that they won't get the loyalty that other markets may have.  So they keep the fans excited with Young cardiac kids.  It's what the Green Bay Packers did years ago when they were not really good but they didn't want to lose their legendary fans.  They marketed the cardiac kids.  People thought that these guys would do something and they were not built to.

What Atlanta will do is keep this group young.  Feed the fans lots of dunks and appearances.  Improve the good guy image of the Hawks. 

Then when the time is right, they will forsake some of these cardiac kids and go after a FA or two. 

So my prediction is that we are about 7 years away from championship contention. 

I think that the only players who may still be on this team when we get there are Collins and whoever we draft.  Next year, Dennis and Prince are probably traded away possibly for nothing. 

 

 

[AHF]

43 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Strawman.  Nobody said that.   I said that they were making money.. and letting the fanbase believe that it's all about the tank.  Let the GM clean house and look forward to more days making money.  Does this mean that they look for an expedient plan back to Championship calibre... I doubt it.  They are owners because they want to make money.    It we take 4 to 5 years before we're ready to strike out and spend on FAcy.. I don't think that they have a problem with that.  It's the Belkin Plan all over again.  Keep the team on the cheap and stay in the lottery. 

How can they make more money this season than they could if they competed for the playoffs (knowing they were doomed in the playoffs) when their payroll is higher than last season when they did just that and attendance and all the income that comes with that is lower?

If they were about making money this season they would not have taken a higher payroll on and would have cut costs instead.  The only argument for them making money is that the television revenues went up by that was a fixed income stream and independent of the payroll and revenue generation through other areas.  Taking the route they did this year cost them money (at least in the short term).

[buckyboy2]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Strawman.  Nobody said that.   I said that they were making money.. and letting the fanbase believe that it's all about the tank.  Let the GM clean house and look forward to more days making money.  Does this mean that they look for an expedient plan back to Championship calibre... I doubt it.  They are owners because they want to make money.    It we take 4 to 5 years before we're ready to strike out and spend on FAcy.. I don't think that they have a problem with that.  It's the Belkin Plan all over again.  Keep the team on the cheap and stay in the lottery. 

Most team owners buy teams as a longterm investment. (re-sale of the team). They rarely make profit. year to year..Most make around 12-15 million which is pocketchange to a billionaire...Its more of a prestige thing..

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, buckyboy2 said:

Most team owners buy teams as a longterm investment. (re-sale of the team). They rarely make profit. year to year..Most make around 12-15 million which is pocketchange to a billionaire...Its more of a prestige thing..

And long-term investment.  The return is very nice when you sell the team.  Not so much in between.

[JSmooooove]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

For all you tankers who believe that it's an immediate jump back into the championship picture... consider this.

Schlenk and our ownership probably have mapped out a plan that looks like this:

1.  4 -5  years of High and Mid level Lottery picks. 

2.  in the 4 to 5 years seek FAs.

then start team building to get into the championship picture.

the first question is why?

Why?

1.  They want to wait out Lebron and Golden State.   Lebron has maybe 3 more years of viability and the Warriors have about 3 more years before their contracts tear them apart. 

2.  Making Money.  own a franchise is about making money... not necessarily winning.   How much does an owner get for winning?  How much does an owner get for keeping his team cheap and capitalizing off of BRI and TV Contracts?

3. Building a Fanbase.   The Atlanta Fanbase is fickle.   You see it in every sport.  The Hawks ownership recognize that they won't get the loyalty that other markets may have.  So they keep the fans excited with Young cardiac kids.  It's what the Green Bay Packers did years ago when they were not really good but they didn't want to lose their legendary fans.  They marketed the cardiac kids.  People thought that these guys would do something and they were not built to.

What Atlanta will do is keep this group young.  Feed the fans lots of dunks and appearances.  Improve the good guy image of the Hawks. 

Then when the time is right, they will forsake some of these cardiac kids and go after a FA or two. 

So my prediction is that we are about 7 years away from championship contention. 

I think that the only players who may still be on this team when we get there are Collins and whoever we draft.  Next year, Dennis and Prince are probably traded away possibly for nothing. 

 

 

Literally nobody has said tanking is an immediate jump back into championship picture. That's what people are referring to when they talk about a strawman. 

Speaking of "championship picture," how many times has this franchise been able to say that since moving to Atlanta? Twice?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 3/31/2018 at 9:08 PM, Buzzard said:

The culture sucks; just look around you at the empty seats when you are at a game. It is not like we had a top 10 player on our roster to build around. You don't build championships around a 4/5 seed whose best player ( Millsap )  is going to be 33 years old by seasons end. Maybe you could if it was Bron, Duncan, or Durant. But not Millsap, I am sorry.

There is nothing to sugar coat about the direction we were headed sans Horford and a aging SAP. We had three years of SAP, Horford, Korver, and Teague and could not get that final piece. Horford walks and your plan to go three more years trying to add a final two pieces now. Makes no sense man; defies logic.

We have Schröder ( for now ), we have Collins, we have a lottery pick and two more 1st this year. That is more than what BK started with and he had us back in the playoffs after year four.

Iso Sap

 

[AHF]

That game pushed him up to 15.1 ppg and 6.5 rpg this season.  Big step in the right direction.

[Diesel]

13 hours ago, AHF said:

How can they make more money this season than they could if they competed for the playoffs (knowing they were doomed in the playoffs) when their payroll is higher than last season when they did just that and attendance and all the income that comes with that is lower?

If they were about making money this season they would not have taken a higher payroll on and would have cut costs instead.  The only argument for them making money is that the television revenues went up by that was a fixed income stream and independent of the payroll and revenue generation through other areas.  Taking the route they did this year cost them money (at least in the short term).

Not resigning Sap and THJr was money saving.  That is just a fact.  Not having those players also hindered our chances to get into the playoffs.   Therefore, they Let Schlenk do what he wanted to do... clean house.   There's nothing more to argue. 

 

[Diesel]

12 hours ago, buckyboy2 said:

Most team owners buy teams as a longterm investment. (re-sale of the team). They rarely make profit. year to year..Most make around 12-15 million which is pocketchange to a billionaire...Its more of a prestige thing..

That's true in some cases.   However, making as oppose to losing money is more optimum.   For if the money didn't matter, then all teams would go into the luxury tax for the prestige of winning a championship... but they don't. 

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, JSmooooove said:

Literally nobody has said tanking is an immediate jump back into championship picture. That's what people are referring to when they talk about a strawman. 

Speaking of "championship picture," how many times has this franchise been able to say that since moving to Atlanta? Twice?

There are a few here who have said that the tank would get us back into contention by next year or the year after.    There are many who jumped on KB for saying that this is a 5 to 10 year process.   IF Literally Nobody Believes that tanking is an immediate jump back.. let's come to an agreement..

1.  We have embarked on a plan that will take us at least 4 years to get back to the playoffs if at all. 

2.   We have embarked on a plan that  will take us at least 7 years to get into the championship picture if at all. 

3.  None of the current players save Collins will be here to see the championship caliber team if at all. 

Can you agree with these three things??  IF so then I believe Argument Over.  I think KB would agree. 

[Peoriabird]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

There are a few here who have said that the tank would get us back into contention by next year or the year after.    There are many who jumped on KB for saying that this is a 5 to 10 year process.   IF Literally Nobody Believes that tanking is an immediate jump back.. let's come to an agreement..

1.  We have embarked on a plan that will take us at least 4 years to get back to the playoffs if at all. 

2.   We have embarked on a plan that  will take us at least 7 years to get into the championship picture if at all. 

3.  None of the current players save Collins will be here to see the championship caliber team if at all. 

Can you agree with these three things??  IF so then I believe Argument Over.  I think KB would agree. 

Dude...It aint that hard to make the playoffs in the Est...You making it out to be some magical feat.  Championship contention is a different story... Heck look at Indy...They just gave away Paul George for god sake and have more wins than they did with him.

[deester11]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

There are a few here who have said that the tank would get us back into contention by next year or the year after.    There are many who jumped on KB for saying that this is a 5 to 10 year process.   IF Literally Nobody Believes that tanking is an immediate jump back.. let's come to an agreement..

1.  We have embarked on a plan that will take us at least 4 years to get back to the playoffs if at all. 

2.   We have embarked on a plan that  will take us at least 7 years to get into the championship picture if at all. 

3.  None of the current players save Collins will be here to see the championship caliber team if at all. 

Can you agree with these three things??  IF so then I believe Argument Over.  I think KB would agree. 

There has been way more to this argument than your breaking it down to simply three questions.  There are dependent factors needed to alter 2 and 3 (for the better or worse).  No one's asking you or KB to remain fans of a team whose direction is chosen.  You don't like it, buy the team and make your own run-of-the-mill one and done playoff team.

[AHF]

46 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Not resigning Sap and THJr was money saving.  That is just a fact.  Not having those players also hindered our chances to get into the playoffs.   Therefore, they Let Schlenk do what he wanted to do... clean house.   There's nothing more to argue. 

 

So you think if Ferry is here that he would be paying the luxury tax this season after resigning both of them? Cleaning house had nothing to do with saving money - ie the team's payroll would be pretty much where it was this season even if ownership was still chasing the playoffs.  Hawks haven't paid the luxury tax in a decade and they weren't starting by resigning the overpriced vets who led the team to a negative point differential.

There is no saving money when the team only spends what we are spending this year when they are trying to compete.  That is just a normal Hawks payroll.

[JSmooooove]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

There are a few here who have said that the tank would get us back into contention by next year or the year after.    There are many who jumped on KB for saying that this is a 5 to 10 year process.   IF Literally Nobody Believes that tanking is an immediate jump back.. let's come to an agreement..

1.  We have embarked on a plan that will take us at least 4 years to get back to the playoffs if at all. 

2.   We have embarked on a plan that  will take us at least 7 years to get into the championship picture if at all. 

3.  None of the current players save Collins will be here to see the championship caliber team if at all. 

Can you agree with these three things??  IF so then I believe Argument Over.  I think KB would agree. 

An immediate jump back to what? Like I said, Atlanta has never been able to say they're in championship contention except for MAYBE twice in the entire history of the franchise. Instead of staying on the same path that we were on which was not going to get us any close to being in contention, most people understand why the Hawks decided to start fresh to try to acquire game-changing talent at the top of the draft.

How else are we going to get that talent? NBA stars don't sign with Atlanta. Never have. I guess we should just sit around and hope some dumb@ss GM decides to give away a James Harden type again, like that will ever happen. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by JSmooooove

[KB21]

27 minutes ago, JSmooooove said:

An immediate jump back to what? Like I said, Atlanta has never been able to say they're in championship contention except for MAYBE twice in the entire history of the franchise. Instead of staying on the same path that we were on which was not going to get us any close to being in contention, most people understand why the Hawks decided to start fresh to try to acquire game-changing talent at the top of the draft.

How else are we going to get that talent? NBA stars don't sign with Atlanta. Never have. I guess we should just sit around and hope some dumb@ss GM decides to give away a James Harden type again, like that will ever happen. 

That's a better plan than building a losing culture that is going to be extremely difficult to overcome.

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, KB21 said:

That's a better plan than building a losing culture that is going to be extremely difficult to overcome.

Better have two lottery picks to trade when that happens if you want to replicate what the Rockets did.

[NBASupes]

20 minutes ago, AHF said:

Better have two lottery picks to trade when that happens if you want to replicate what the Rockets did.

Teams are hard press to trade them these days. You gotta have a Blake Griffin type to even interest teams in moving a pick like that unless it's a weak draft class.