Do You Hear What I Hear?

[DrReality]

Our GM says he’s taking best player available but how much consideration does he give to playing with Collins?  Seems to me Bamba would fit much better beside Collins than Bagley.

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, DrReality said:

Our GM says he’s taking best player available but how much consideration does he give to playing with Collins?  Seems to me Bamba would fit much better beside Collins than Bagley.

Yeah, they fit together if you don't want space for your offense.

[DrReality]

17 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Yeah, they fit together if you don't want space for your offense.

Wow I feel a sense of honor that you disagreed with me.   Thanks. 

[Buzzard]

35 minutes ago, DrReality said:

Our GM says he’s taking best player available but how much consideration does he give to playing with Collins?  Seems to me Bamba would fit much better beside Collins than Bagley.

I don't think we are going to be worrying about fit if someone is deemed to be head and shoulders above the rest at pick #3. A very small sample size but Collins shot better from three than our starting PG did last season. Him and Prince have plenty of room to grow.

[KB21]

16 minutes ago, DrReality said:

Wow I feel a sense of honor that you disagreed with me.   Thanks. 

I'd be more willing to buy into Bamba if we still had Hawks University.  Unfortunately, because of our owner and GM, Hawks University is now in Milwaukee.  

[hazer]

3 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I don't think we are going to be worrying about fit if someone is deemed to be head and shoulders above the rest at pick #3. A very small sample size but Collins shot better from three than our starting PG did last season. Him and Prince have plenty of room to grow.

Agreed. J-Bap looks capable of 35% from 3. And Printz will continue the trajectory he’s already on.

[Buzzard]

Just now, hazer said:

Agreed. J-Bap looks capable of 35% from 3. And Printz will continue the trajectory he’s already on.

I think some fans are really sleeping on John Collins. His rookie season was every bit as good or better as Al Horford's in 90% of all stats including advanced stats. Collins did that with 7 MPG less time as well. I see John blowing Al's 2nd season away and averaging at least 14PPG and 9 boards; while being extremely efficient.

[Flight]

13 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I'd be more willing to buy into Bamba if we still had Hawks University.  Unfortunately, because of our owner and GM, Hawks University is now in Milwaukee.  

If you don't think we can develop Bamba why would you want a player that needs more development than him or any other top prospect in JJJ? lol

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, Flight said:

If you don't think we can develop Bamba why would you want a player that needs more development than him or any other top prospect in JJJ? lol

Where does he need development?   JJJ is already a great perimeter shooter.  He's a great free throw shooter.  He's a great defender.  All you are doing with him is letting him mature with his skill set.  You don't have to teach him to shoot.  You don't have to teach him how to rotate on defense.  

JJJ isn't this raw, unskilled athlete like Bagley and Bamba are, though Bamba isn't that great of an athlete overall.

[macdaddy]

17 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I think some fans are really sleeping on John Collins. His rookie season was every bit as good or better as Al Horford's in 90% of all stats including advanced stats. Collins did that with 7 MPG less time as well. I see John blowing Al's 2nd season away and averaging at least 14PPG and 9 boards; while being extremely efficient.

Well I hate to be the one singing praises of Horford but the big difference is that Al was a great defender from the get go in the NBA and Collins has a LOT of work to do.    Not to mention that Al came onto a vet playoff team and was a starter out the gate and Collins got his minutes in the name of development.

But I"m not knocking Collins.  I agree that his future is extremely bright and he could end up being a better player than Al.   But I'm not sure their rookie years are really apples to apples.

[Buzzard]

9 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Well I hate to be the one singing praises of Horford but the big difference is that Al was a great defender from the get go in the NBA and Collins has a LOT of work to do.    Not to mention that Al came onto a vet playoff team and was a starter out the gate and Collins got his minutes in the name of development.

But I"m not knocking Collins.  I agree that his future is extremely bright and he could end up being a better player than Al.   But I'm not sure their rookie years are really apples to apples.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the years meaning as much. Collins had 26 starts and averaged roughly 28 MPG in them. Al had 77 starts and averaged 31.3 MPG. Al may be a better defender as a rookie but I like Collins offensive upside to hit his stride a whole lot sooner than AL.

18 and 9 is not easy to go grab in the draft or free agency. Horford has only done 18 and 8 once in his career. I do look for Collins to be getting 17 to 18 and 9 by his 3rd season. Once there, barring injury, I think he will stay there for quite a while.

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the years meaning as much. Collins had 26 starts and averaged roughly 28 MPG in them. Al had 77 starts and averaged 31.3 MPG. Al may be a better defender as a rookie but I like Collins offensive upside to hit his stride a whole lot sooner than AL.

18 and 9 is not easy to go grab in the draft or free agency. Horford has only done 18 and 8 once in his career. I do look for Collins to be getting 17 to 18 and 9 by his 3rd season. Once there, barring injury, I think he will stay there for quite a while.

I don't disagree with your conclusion.  I'm just not sure you can really compare stats for rookies on teams that aren't trying to win games with 'normal' competitive teams.   Okafor put up monster numbers his rookie year.   I do expect great things from Collins, far better than Okafor and hopefully better than Horford.  

[Flight]

31 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Where does he need development?   JJJ is already a great perimeter shooter.  He's a great free throw shooter.  He's a great defender.  All you are doing with him is letting him mature with his skill set.  You don't have to teach him to shoot.  You don't have to teach him how to rotate on defense.  

JJJ isn't this raw, unskilled athlete like Bagley and Bamba are, though Bamba isn't that great of an athlete overall.

He needs development literally in every facet lol He couldn't even stay on the court at MSU because he fouled so much, he's not half the scorer Bagley is and he doesn't have the length of Bamba as a bonus. The NBA is a different monster when it comes to competition and he doesn't have the natural gifts to make an early impact as much as the others. 

He's literally gonna need every bit of the same development Bamba needs offensively minus the ability to shoot wide open shots. JJJ is raw, he's young serge ibaka on offense.  But in his case he doesn't even have the production to back up his play. He only scored over 20 points twice, and that's against college talent. He had 6 double-doubles the whole season compared to 14 for Bamba and 22 for Bagley. JJJ has a ways to go, his more hyped for his potential than his production.

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

I don't disagree with your conclusion.  I'm just not sure you can really compare stats for rookies on teams that aren't trying to win games with 'normal' competitive teams.   Okafor put up monster numbers his rookie year.   I do expect great things from Collins, far better than Okafor and hopefully better than Horford.  

Two ways to look at Collins season; and I have no idea which is right. Was it Bud's aversion to rookies or tank mode that kept Collins down? Maybe a little of both. This I think is certain; he did not get the same opportunity as Horford did when it came to playing time and development.

[KB21]

15 minutes ago, Flight said:

He needs development literally in every facet lol He couldn't even stay on the court at MSU because he fouled so much, he's not half the scorer Bagley is and he doesn't have the length of Bamba as a bonus. The NBA is a different monster when it comes to competition and he doesn't have the natural gifts to make an early impact as much as the others. 

He's literally gonna need every bit of the same development Bamba needs offensively minus the ability to shoot wide open shots. JJJ is raw, he's young serge ibaka on offense.  But in his case he doesn't even have the production to back up his play. He only scored over 20 points twice, and that's against college talent. He had 6 double-doubles the whole season compared to 14 for Bamba and 22 for Bagley. JJJ has a ways to go, his more hyped for his potential than his production.

Counting stats.  Yawn.

[NBASupes]

34 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the years meaning as much. Collins had 26 starts and averaged roughly 28 MPG in them. Al had 77 starts and averaged 31.3 MPG. Al may be a better defender as a rookie but I like Collins offensive upside to hit his stride a whole lot sooner than AL.

18 and 9 is not easy to go grab in the draft or free agency. Horford has only done 18 and 8 once in his career. I do look for Collins to be getting 17 to 18 and 9 by his 3rd season. Once there, barring injury, I think he will stay there for quite a while.

They aren't the same type of players.

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Counting stats.  Yawn.

Marvin Williams Jr.

[Flight]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Counting stats.  Yawn.

I mean, obviously watching them play hasn't helped your understanding so I figured maybe the literal numbers that they put up might help.

JJJ is a player you'd want for potential to do things. He really hasn't produced anything of note if you look at his season. I mean look at the conference tournament and NCAA tournament performances he had, literally all of them are forgettable. It's just hard for me to really put him above Bagley and Bamba when he can barely stay on the court in big games.

[KB21]

Just now, Flight said:

I mean, obviously watching them play hasn't helped your understanding so I figured maybe the literal numbers that they put up might help.

JJJ is a player you'd want for potential to do things. He really hasn't produced anything of note if you look at his season. I mean look at the conference tournament and NCAA tournament performances he had, literally all of them are forgettable. It's just hard for me to really put him above Bagley and Bamba when he can barely stay on the court in big games.

He hasn't produced anything.  Looks at the stats.  Highest BPM among all freshmen in 2017-2018.  Yeah, he hasn't produced anything other than contributing more to the success of his team than another other freshman in the country.  

[Flight]

8 minutes ago, KB21 said:

He hasn't produced anything.  Looks at the stats.  Highest BPM among all freshmen in 2017-2018.  Yeah, he hasn't produced anything other than contributing more to the success of his team than another other freshman in the country.  

BPM is a relative stat though, I'm talking about what he's ACTUALLY done. He's someone that's going to need a lot of work to pan out in the league. The only thing he can guarantee me as of right now is hitting wide open shots, rim running, playing aggressive defense and fouling more than he blocks shots.

[Dragitoff]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

I'd be more willing to buy into Bamba if we still had Hawks University.  Unfortunately, because of our owner and GM, Hawks University is now in Milwaukee.  

I said this in another thread when someone (might've been you) brought that point up, but I think Bud gets far too much credit for development of young players despite being one of the most stubborn coached about playing young players.  I definitely get that we were trying to win every season except last season he was here, but there were some vets who were struggling mightily and kids who had shown promise in limited action, yet Bud kept them glued to the bench.  If you are trying to say Hawks nation didn't bemoan some of Bud's rotations during his tenure, you're fooling yourself.  

I think Pierce in Philly developed more talent from the ground up than Bud did in ATL so I'm good with the developmental side of our coaching staff now.