Do You Hear What I Hear?

[Flight]

6 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

When I first saw Dennis with the Hawks, I thought he had no chance because I thought he was too small to last. I was dead wrong, I underestimated his desire to win. Trae may very well be the same way and figure it out for himself. If he wants to be like Steve Nash, then I can see it to some extent, but the ball never left his hand at Oklahoma unless it was a clear assist. Otherwise he was looking for his own shot.

 

My comparison with Dennis isn't that they play similarly, just that we have Dennis on the roster already and most likely won't be able to move him for equivalent value. So that leads me to ask just how good we expect Trae Young to be to justify making the moves to select him wherever, when we hold the #3 pick in the draft. Because he for sure has to be better than Dennis (and at his best, we've seen Dennis go against John Wall and hold his own). Then, if you're picking at #3 you'd have to say he'll be such a better PG than Dennis, you're willing to sell low on Dennis and spend the pick or trade down to get Trae. I don't think he'll be that good.

 

For me, Trae would have to be a top 5 PG in the league for the decision to make sense. Dennis isn't far from being a top 10 PG himself. I'd rather keep him, flaws and all, and draft a big.

I definitely felt where you were coming from until you said Dennis isn't far from being top 10 himself... smh lol

(In no particular order) Curry, Westbrook, CP3, Wall, Lillard, Kyrie, Conley, Kemba, Lowry, Holiday, Rubio..

He's pretty far and that's not counting Harden, Ben Simmons and some others that may be regarded higher right now (I.E. Rondo) 

 

[nathan2331]

 

 

I definitely felt where you were coming from until you said Dennis isn't far from being top 10 himself... smh lol

(In no particular order) Curry, Westbrook, CP3, Wall, Lillard, Kyrie, Conley, Kemba, Lowry, Holiday, Rubio..

He's pretty far and that's not counting Harden, Ben Simmons and some others that may be regarded higher right now (I.E. Rondo) 

 

 

You named 10 PGs that are better (I'd rather have Dennis than Rubio) but then how much better is Lowry than Dennis? On a basketball court I don't think the difference is that significant. Ignoring my own biases, even with that list you can't list another 10 PGs without Dennis being included. He's only 23 and with some attainable improvements I think he could be number 8 or higher in the future.

[terrell]

7 hours ago, hazer said:

HEYULL naw, Ayton all day long.

Im kinda souring on Ayton...lol. You cant teach work ethic...

[benhillboy]

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

I think people forget that Curry was looked at as an undersized shooting guard coming out of Davidson.  

That’s what he is tho.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, terrell said:

Im kinda souring on Ayton...lol. You cant teach work ethic...

You might be able to...

[thecampster]

6 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

Honestly I'm going to be mad if we trade back to take Trae Young. A lot of things have to go right to make the pick worth it. Unless he hits his absolute ceiling I don't think we're getting value out of the pick.

 

Like say Trae puts up Kemba Walker-like numbers, which is All-Star level in the East. That would be a good outcome for him, but we've already got Dennis who isn't far from that himself (shooting aside). It's not that I don't value point guards, it's just that their talent pool is much deeper. If you don't have one you can sign a stopgap very easily. At #3 in this draft I'd rather draft a center and there are 3 guys who could fit the bill. There are a metric ton of quality wing prospects later in the draft, and next year there are even better prospects at SG where we'll likely be drafting.

I whole heartedly disagree with all of this.  Yes there are point guards and per the nature of the position they all put up "nimbers", but unlike SG, SF and PF, Point Guards and Centers affect the game most in what doesn't show up in the box score. This is why you need to listen to what @KB21 is saying with the opponents +/- numbers.  These 2 positions have the unique position of anchoring the defense, establishing the offense, challenging a defense and disrupting an offense.

Use Dennis as an example, Dennis gets his...pretty much every starting PG in the NBA is gonna get 4 assists / game just based on the nature of the position.  Almost every starting PG gets 10 ppg (again, nature of the position) but if you look at "team" Offense" and "team" defense when either a PG or Center is on the floor it speaks volumes.  For example:

Dennis on court 107.9 per 48 on offense.  Dennis off the court, 105.2ppg per 48 on offense.  Offensively, Dennis was worth 2.5 more ppg on offense than any other PG the Hawks have. This is not an individual stat but a measurement of team impact. Defensively the Hawks gave up 114.1 ppg with Dennis on the court compared to 110.1 ppg with him off.  Defensively the team was 4 ppg better off without Dennis on the floor.  This is a total team impact the Point Guard makes.  Point Guards are not a dime a dozen.  Consider Chris Paul.....The Rockets were 8ppg better offensively with him on the floor. This was a offensive team and you would assume anyone could run it...not the case. Chris Paul made it hum.  This is because Paul is always looking to make others better and get teams into their sets.

Trae Young has that mentality. Although he scores a ton, he is not a me first player. He's a true PG who can score in droves. These are extremely rare...like purple unicorn who can speak Groot rare.

[DBac]

Trae would be the most exciting Hawk in a longgg time.

Always forget that I can't edit my posts. I wouldnt take him at 3 tho, small tradeback to ensure we pick in front of Magic would be ideal if Trae is the guy.

[benhillboy]

I’m intrigued about the little I’ve heard and seen of Young.  His length will hinder him a lot in comparison to Steph on the defensive end though.  

Highlights won’t usually show how well he is at non-assist passes.  My main question would be can he see and make well-timed cross-court passes that scramble the defense and allow him to reposition for wide open looks.  Haven’t heard much about him being in that Reggie off ball mold.  Steph has fallen off quite a bit as a screener but still tops in screen assists as a small guard.  I don’t expect to see Young setting screens unless he plays for Pop or Spo.  A bad/inexperienced coach could ruin him.  Like all the Kings and Suns talent of the last 10 years.

[KB21]

59 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

I’m intrigued about the little I’ve heard and seen of Young.  His length will hinder him a lot in comparison to Steph on the defensive end though.  

Highlights won’t usually show how well he is at non-assist passes.  My main question would be can he see and make well-timed cross-court passes that scramble the defense and allow him to reposition for wide open looks.  Haven’t heard much about him being in that Reggie off ball mold.  Steph has fallen off quite a bit as a screener but still tops in screen assists as a small guard.  I don’t expect to see Young setting screens unless he plays for Pop or Spo.  A bad/inexperienced coach could ruin him.  Like all the Kings and Suns talent of the last 10 years.

That will be an issue in Atlanta now that Hawks University is in Milwaukee.  

[Dragitoff]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

That will be an issue in Atlanta now that Hawks University is in Milwaukee.  

I definitely think HU has helped produce and draw out some really good talent, but it seemed like it was more with getting more out of vets than bringing along younger players.  Bud, especially during the years we were competitive, had a tendency to trust his vets more than the young players.  Guys would have to claw their way to any PT if they weren't a vet.  How many times did we all complain about his rotations when a vet was struggling and Bud refused to give a kid any burn?  

[KB21]

5 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

I definitely think HU has helped produce and draw out some really good talent, but it seemed like it was more with getting more out of vets than bringing along younger players.  Bud, especially during the years we were competitive, had a tendency to trust his vets more than the young players.  Guys would have to claw their way to any PT if they weren't a vet.  How many times did we all complain about his rotations when a vet was struggling and Bud refused to give a kid any burn?  

That's why the Hawks won games.  They made young players earn their time and developed their games before throwing them out there instead of playing them when they haven't earned that time, losing games as a result.

[Dragitoff]

Just now, KB21 said:

That's why the Hawks won games.  They made young players earn their time and developed their games before throwing them out there instead of playing them when they haven't earned that time, losing games as a result.

Agreed.  I was just saying Bud gets so much credit for developing players, but it looked to me more like the vets developed their games more than the young players.  By all accounts, Pierce was a huge part of the young player development in Philly so I've got faith we should see greater opportunities of young player development now if for no other reason than they'll be given the opportunity to grow rather than sitting at the end of the bench.  

There's a lot to be said for gametime growth and development.  You hear every rook that comes into the league comment how fast the NBA is compared to NCAA.  Watch it on tv and you can even see that is a smaller sense.  You can't simulate that in practice as much.  Sure, you don't want your players to develop a mentality of losing like many thought Philly was doing all those years (and I was one of them), but you want them to develop at game speed.  

I've been doing long distance running for a few years.  I'm not fast enough that I'm world class or anything, but for my age (since I'm older) and speed, I am fairly competitive in local type races.  Part of my training is doing "speed work" which forces me to push the tempo to race pace.  You can't run every training run like that, but you do that once a week or so.  Even then, when the starting gun fires your adrenaline takes over and you have to be careful to not start off too fast or else you'll run out of gas too soon.  Start too slow and you may never make it up.  Running races over and over have taught me the hard lessons and let me taste the successes that help me build on my fitness and skill.  I couldn't fully simulate race day no matter how many training tempo runs I did.  It was only when the race really started that I could put everything I trained for to the test.  

[macdaddy]

I know Dennis is still young but I really think we are at or close to his ceiling.   If he improves his 3 point shot then that will help tons but what has he really improved on in the last 3 years?  

Totally agree that you don't take Young if you think he'll just be as good as Dennis, but there is a lot there to suggest that he will be much better.  Defense is a huge concern with Young but isn't that the biggest issue with Dennis too?  5 years into the NBA.

[Dragitoff]

3 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I know Dennis is still young but I really think we are at or close to his ceiling.   If he improves his 3 point shot then that will help tons but what has he really improved on in the last 3 years?  

Totally agree that you don't take Young if you think he'll just be as good as Dennis, but there is a lot there to suggest that he will be much better.  Defense is a huge concern with Young but isn't that the biggest issue with Dennis too?  5 years into the NBA.

Dennis actually played decent defense when he was backing up Teague.  I don't know if it was because it was for shorter spurts, usually playing against 2nd teamers, he wasn't being asked to do as much on the offensive end, or he just tried harder.  That's where a lot of the Rondo comparisons came in early on.  If you recall, Dennis pressured the ballhandler up the court and harassed them.  He made poor decisions from time to time doing it, but he made the effort defensively.  

I don't think he'll progress much more as a player.  He's probably best served as a 6th man and he'd be an amazing one at that.  He'd easily be the best backup PG in the league if he'd accept that role and apply himself accordingly.  

[macdaddy]

18 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

Dennis actually played decent defense when he was backing up Teague.  I don't know if it was because it was for shorter spurts, usually playing against 2nd teamers, he wasn't being asked to do as much on the offensive end, or he just tried harder.  That's where a lot of the Rondo comparisons came in early on.  If you recall, Dennis pressured the ballhandler up the court and harassed them.  He made poor decisions from time to time doing it, but he made the effort defensively.  

I don't think he'll progress much more as a player.  He's probably best served as a 6th man and he'd be an amazing one at that.  He'd easily be the best backup PG in the league if he'd accept that role and apply himself accordingly.  

Agree 100% on this.  I think as a backup PG he had the luxury to apply a lot of pressure, but he often had some pretty good team defenders behind him to give him that freedom.  What we've learned is that his man defense just isn't that good.   That's true of a lot of guys though, but we won't be able to consider him a top PG if he continues as an average or below defender AND a poor shooter from long range.   If he loses just a bit of speed then what skill is going to keep him on the court?

[NBASupes]

33 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I know Dennis is still young but I really think we are at or close to his ceiling.   If he improves his 3 point shot then that will help tons but what has he really improved on in the last 3 years?  

Totally agree that you don't take Young if you think he'll just be as good as Dennis, but there is a lot there to suggest that he will be much better.  Defense is a huge concern with Young but isn't that the biggest issue with Dennis too?  5 years into the NBA.

Hes not close to his ceiling but he has to improve. Something we haven't see since Al was here from him. He really going to have to improve 

[NBASupes]

27 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

Dennis actually played decent defense when he was backing up Teague.  I don't know if it was because it was for shorter spurts, usually playing against 2nd teamers, he wasn't being asked to do as much on the offensive end, or he just tried harder.  That's where a lot of the Rondo comparisons came in early on.  If you recall, Dennis pressured the ballhandler up the court and harassed them.  He made poor decisions from time to time doing it, but he made the effort defensively.  

I don't think he'll progress much more as a player.  He's probably best served as a 6th man and he'd be an amazing one at that.  He'd easily be the best backup PG in the league if he'd accept that role and apply himself accordingly.  

This is more due to NBA starting PG being the deepest position and the hardest position. It's not easy at all and Dennis knows that.

[Flight]

So the updated ESPN Mock has us taking JJJ, Aaron Holiday, Jacob Evans and Anfernee Simons. Y'all happy with that?

[KB21]

Just now, Flight said:

So the updated ESPN Mock has us taking JJJ, Aaron Holiday, Jacob Evans and Anfernee Simons. Y'all happy with that?

JJJ and Evans.  Yes.  Holiday and Simons, not really.  I think Simons is undraftable.  

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, Flight said:

So the updated ESPN Mock has us taking JJJ, Aaron Holiday, Jacob Evans and Anfernee Simons. Y'all happy with that?

If this is what happened I’d give us a solid D-