Nobody believed?

[KB21]

If you truly think there is no such thing as a losing and winning culture, then you have never played sports before.

Like I said earlier, if getting high picks is all you needed to do, then why has Sacramento been in 12 straight lotteries?  Why has half of this year's lottery been drafting in the lottery for 4 plus years?

It's amazing that San Antonio has been good for so long without tanking.

[sturt]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Then give me an example where a process like this took less than 5 years without the team signing LeBron James because he loved Cleveland.

You keep doing this, and I'm not going to let you persist.

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

It was me, before you, who stated that there are too many variables involved  to conclude how long it should take any given team to contend after having spent some time in the tank.

So, that any one of those teams hasn't succeeded is irrelevant to the point of what is typical  based on recent history.

The numbers do say what you don't want them to say.... that you can't sit back on your heels and just keep drafting below #12 and expect that history will deal with you kindly.

If you're playing baseball, and you send up your .333 hitter, you have to feel a whole lot better about that than sending up a pitcher batting .175.

But having said that... compared to the .002 hitter (rounding UP)... that .175 hitter looks like the Natural.

[Threezus]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

If you truly think there is no such thing as a losing and winning culture, then you have never played sports before.

Like I said earlier, if getting high picks is all you needed to do, then why has Sacramento been in 12 straight lotteries?  Why has half of this year's lottery been drafting in the lottery for 4 plus years?

It's amazing that San Antonio has been good for so long without tanking.

I played for 15 years total baseball, football, and wrestling :)  So i for sure know all about winning and losing and how 1 elite player can change all of that.  Talent triumphs over everything and what baffles me is how Sacramento has been so trash at picking a elite talent after all these years.   Probably the only team who would really screw me over in my assumption would be the Browns in the nfl because i hoenstly think they take top tier talent all the time and still stay trash.  But thats probably more so that they can't draft a top tier QB which again would bring me back to the you have to get a elite player at the right position depending on sport.  For the NBA it can honestly be almost any position as long as it's a elite player you are good and can go from there because theirs only 5 guys on the court at any given time.  For the NFL it almost has to be a QB sadly so you can draft well which the browns do and get crap at QB and still suck.   What the Browns should have done if traded all those assets over the years for a starting legit QB.  Baseball is  a bit trickier as a superstar can help but theirs so many players there as well that they can help turn a team around but can't carry it like the nba. 

I can almost guarantee you 90% of the nba franchises that were crap at one point got lucky and hit on a good draft pick or traded for star to break a so called losing culture.   If you think their is a losing culture then getting a elite player can change that and give the rest of the team faith to play better.

[sturt]

19 minutes ago, KB21 said:

if getting high picks is all you needed to do,

 

I don't know who you're talking to... "all you needed to do"... who's saying it's "all" you need to do???

Losing culture? I'm one who believes losing cultures are not just a matter of tradition, but a matter of the competency of the person at the top to make solid decisions. By definition, it is not easy to identify someone who can be an exceptional GM, or everyone would do that.

Obviously, you only get 1 automatically-prescribed first round pick per year. Even if the Kings had EVERY #1 pick between 2003-15, they only would have gained 5 all-stars.

GSW hit on two of their top 11 chances, and then somehow managed to add another all-star with a late pick... but to be as exceptional as they became, there were some trades and some FA signings that also figured into that recipe.

I'm one of the last people here to defend Travis Schlenk, but sorry, the logic is compelling.

Unless you're a destination city or a destination franchise in the NBA, it will always be incredibly difficult to attract a top tier FA. And trades, by design, are always built around both sides believing they are receiving more value than they're giving up.

It is reasonable, then, to try to get a foothold on building a contender roster by establishing yourself with at least one ASG level talent, and really, you need two. Then, there's still more that needs to happen, but at least that provides some foundation to build upon through FA and trades.

 

 

 

 

[AHF]

Not sure why we are perpetuating the myth that no team decides to tank and is back in the playoffs in 5 years. Let’s look back in time to that long ago era called the 2017/18 season.

Rember that 76ers team from last year?  Last year was year 5 of their rebuild and they were the #3 seed.  

 

 

The 2011-12 Sixers won 35 games and made the playoffs.

The 2012-13 Sixers returned almost all of the playoff team from the year before, won 34 games and tried their best to make the playoffs.  They did not tank under any definition.

After the 2012/13 season, the 76ers made a complete change in management and started “The Process.”  The 2013-14 Sixers tore down and tanked.  They tanked again with losing seasons in year 2 (14-15), year 3 (15-16) and year 4 (16-17).  They tried to win in 2017-18 and were rewarded with a winning record (you predicted they would have a losing season),  #3 seed in the East (mid season you predicted they would miss the playoffs), and easily handled Miami in the playoffs (you predicted Miami would sweep them).

 

Let’s take a moment to acknowledge the facts before adjusting the goal posts.

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, falconfan13 said:

I played for 15 years total baseball, football, and wrestling :)  So i for sure know all about winning and losing and how 1 elite player can change all of that.  Talent triumphs over everything .....

Food for thought...

Is Kevin Love talented?

How about Kyrie Irving?

How about Karl Anthony Townes?

I would say that all those guys are talented.   However, they played on teams with no winning culture and they did as the culture did.    Then you look at a team like Utah.  They beat a more talented OKC team in 6.   In fact, Utah, really don't have a lot of household names but they put fear into most playoffs teams.  Finally San Antonio was the 7th seed this year.  No Duncan.  No Kawhi.  Declining Parker and Ginobili.  But they were right there and they won more games over GS than the Cavs did.   Why??  Culture. 

Cultures build dynasties.  That's why if they trade Kawhi and don't get back a whole lot of superstars, nobody expects a decline in San Antonio.  They have a winning Culture.   The same is true for a losing culture. 

 

[EazyRoc]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Food for thought...

Is Kevin Love talented?

How about Kyrie Irving?

How about Karl Anthony Townes?

I would say that all those guys are talented.   However, they played on teams with no winning culture and they did as the culture did.    Then you look at a team like Utah.  They beat a more talented OKC team in 6.   In fact, Utah, really don't have a lot of household names but they put fear into most playoffs teams.  Finally San Antonio was the 7th seed this year.  No Duncan.  No Kawhi.  Declining Parker and Ginobili.  But they were right there and they won more games over GS than the Cavs did.   Why??  Culture. 

Cultures build dynasties.  That's why if they trade Kawhi and don't get back a whole lot of superstars, nobody expects a decline in San Antonio.  They have a winning Culture.   The same is true for a losing culture. 

 

Weak argument. Only reason any of those guys starting winning is because the talent level got significantly better. Nothing to do with “culture”.

[sturt]

Culture schmulture.

Houston Astros have never been one of the elite franchises in MLB, but it was uglier than ever before in their history beginning 2012, and then 2013, and then 2014. You can't get a more losing culture than to string together 100-loss seasons like they did.

And they didn't do what they did last season... won a WS if you weren't paying attention... through free agency spending, btw.

At some point, boys, you win more respect by acknowledging the other side has a point than to continue to grasp for straws in order to justify the point you're been holding on to.

[kg01]

4 minutes ago, sturt said:

Culture schmulture.

Houston Astros have never been one of the elite franchises in MLB, but it was uglier than ever before in their history beginning 2012, and then 2013, and then 2014. You can't get a more losing culture than to string together 100-loss seasons like they did.

And they didn't do what they did last season... won a WS if you weren't paying attention... through free agency spending, btw.

At some point, boys, you win more respect by acknowledging the other side has a point than to continue to grasp for straws in order to justify the point you're been holding on to.

Preach, sturt.  You musta ate your Wheaties this morning.

Our last 10+ years taught me that culture means next to nothing when you lack elite talent.  I'm tired-a being the little engine that could(n't).  Give me elites, or give me death.

The only question at this point is ... do we have an elite-in-training (or not).

[JayBirdHawk]

18 minutes ago, sturt said:

Culture schmulture.

Houston Astros have never been one of the elite franchises in MLB, but it was uglier than ever before in their history beginning 2012, and then 2013, and then 2014. You can't get a more losing culture than to string together 100-loss seasons like they did.

And they didn't do what they did last season... won a WS if you weren't paying attention... through free agency spending, btw.

At some point, boys, you win more respect by acknowledging the other side has a point than to continue to grasp for straws in order to justify the point you're been holding on to.

 

11 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Preach, sturt.  You musta ate your Wheaties this morning.

Our last 10+ years taught me that culture means next to nothing when you lack elite talent.  I'm tired-a being the little engine that could(n't).  Give me elites, or give me death.

The only question at this point is ... do we have an elite-in-training (or not).

 

[sturt]

15 minutes ago, kg01 said:

You musta ate your Wheaties this morning.

Steel cut oats, actually.

:)

[KB21]

10 hours ago, falconfan13 said:

I played for 15 years total baseball, football, and wrestling :)  So i for sure know all about winning and losing and how 1 elite player can change all of that.  Talent triumphs over everything and what baffles me is how Sacramento has been so trash at picking a elite talent after all these years.   Probably the only team who would really screw me over in my assumption would be the Browns in the nfl because i hoenstly think they take top tier talent all the time and still stay trash.  But thats probably more so that they can't draft a top tier QB which again would bring me back to the you have to get a elite player at the right position depending on sport.  For the NBA it can honestly be almost any position as long as it's a elite player you are good and can go from there because theirs only 5 guys on the court at any given time.  For the NFL it almost has to be a QB sadly so you can draft well which the browns do and get crap at QB and still suck.   What the Browns should have done if traded all those assets over the years for a starting legit QB.  Baseball is  a bit trickier as a superstar can help but theirs so many players there as well that they can help turn a team around but can't carry it like the nba. 

I can almost guarantee you 90% of the nba franchises that were crap at one point got lucky and hit on a good draft pick or traded for star to break a so called losing culture.   If you think their is a losing culture then getting a elite player can change that and give the rest of the team faith to play better.

Sacramento has drafted elite talent (DeMarcus Cousins), and they have drafted good talent (Tyreke Evans, Buddy Hield, De'Aaron Fox, Willie Cauley Stein), and they have drafted raw talent (Ben McLemore), but despite this, they have continued their losing ways.  Why? 

It's because your culture is the most important aspect.  Culture is why the Spurs have been able to maintain their greatness over a long period of time.  Sacramento's culture has lead to poor player development.  Their culture has lead to poor player attitudes.  

Jayson Tatum would not have been the same player had he been drafted by Phoenix this past year as he was in Boston.  The difference is the culture.  Phoenix has a culture of losing.  Boston has a culture of winning because they did not accept losing as an avenue to get talent.  

[KB21]

9 hours ago, AHF said:

Not sure why we are perpetuating the myth that no team decides to tank and is back in the playoffs in 5 years. Let’s look back in time to that long ago era called the 2017/18 season.

Rember that 76ers team from last year?  Last year was year 5 of their rebuild and they were the #3 seed.  

 

 

The 2011-12 Sixers won 35 games and made the playoffs.

The 2012-13 Sixers returned almost all of the playoff team from the year before, won 34 games and tried their best to make the playoffs.  They did not tank under any definition.

After the 2012/13 season, the 76ers made a complete change in management and started “The Process.”  The 2013-14 Sixers tore down and tanked.  They tanked again with losing seasons in year 2 (14-15), year 3 (15-16) and year 4 (16-17).  They tried to win in 2017-18 and were rewarded with a winning record (you predicted they would have a losing season),  #3 seed in the East (mid season you predicted they would miss the playoffs), and easily handled Miami in the playoffs (you predicted Miami would sweep them).

 

Let’s take a moment to acknowledge the facts before adjusting the goal posts.

Have you taken note of the fact that it took the 76ers 5 years to get to this point, and they only have two strong players as a result of their 5 years of misery?

[KB21]

39 minutes ago, sturt said:

Culture schmulture.

Houston Astros have never been one of the elite franchises in MLB, but it was uglier than ever before in their history beginning 2012, and then 2013, and then 2014. You can't get a more losing culture than to string together 100-loss seasons like they did.

And they didn't do what they did last season... won a WS if you weren't paying attention... through free agency spending, btw.

At some point, boys, you win more respect by acknowledging the other side has a point than to continue to grasp for straws in order to justify the point you're been holding on to.

The other side does not have a point though.  I will not relent on this.  Tanking does not produce championships.

[KB21]

I need to remind folks of this, it seems.  Here's the cycle of the tanking team or the lottery treadmill team.

1.  Team decides to lose a lot of games to get high draft pick.

2.  Team takes young player in need of development with high draft pick.

3.  Young player in need of development plays more minutes than his production warrants, therefore team loses more games and gets another high draft pick.

4.  Team takes young player in need of development with high draft pick.

5.  Young player in need of development plays more minutes than his production warrants, therefore team loses more games and gets another high draft pick.

6.  Team takes young player in need of development with high draft pick.

7.  Young player in need of development plays more minutes than his production warrants, therefore team loses more games and gets another high draft pick.

8.  Now, the young player that was taken 3 years earlier has developed a bad attitude due to the losing and wants to go to another team where he can experience winning.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[Peoriabird]

WTF???? Why is this topic so important to people?  What's the point of trying to predict the future??  Maybe this is another attempt to discredit Schlenk...meaning this is a continuation of the the passive aggressive protest of "The Decision" to part ways with Bud???  Get over it already Geez Louise!!!  It is time to watch these boys grow and enjoy the process.

[kg01]

38 minutes ago, sturt said:

Steel cut oats, actually.

:)

 

You know you jus' had  some instant oatmeal like the rest of us.

[sturt]

11 minutes ago, kg01 said:

You know you jus' had  some instant oatmeal like the rest of us.

Dr. KB prescribed it... he thinks I need more fiber. *wink*

[sturt]

20 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I need to remind folks of this, it seems.  Here's the cycle of the tanking team or the lottery treadmill team.

1.  Team decides to lose a lot of games to get high draft pick.

2.  Team takes young player in need of development with high draft pick.

3.  Young player in need of development plays more minutes than his production warrants, therefore team loses more games and gets another high draft pick.

4.  Team takes young player in need of development with high draft pick.

5.  Young player in need of development plays more minutes than his production warrants, therefore team loses more games and gets another high draft pick.

6.  Team takes young player in need of development with high draft pick.

7.  Young player in need of development plays more minutes than his production warrants, therefore team loses more games and gets another high draft pick.

8.  Now, the young player that was taken 3 years earlier has developed a bad attitude due to the losing and wants to go to another team where he can experience winning.

Rinse and repeat.

 

 

 

Again again again again again again...

The numbers still say what the numbers say.

You keep going back to the same point, which by now, has looooooooooooooooong ago been acknowledged... there are MANY variables, not just draft slot, that are part of the recipe for success.

And. The numbers still say what the numbers say.

There is ABSOLUTELY justification for taking the approach that Schlenk/Ressler decided to take.

 

 

[AHF]

45 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Have you taken note of the fact that it took the 76ers 5 years to get to this point, and they only have two strong players as a result of their 5 years of misery?

You think a #3 seed is a year of misery?  Do you still think they missed the playoffs last year?

Or maybe you are counting pre-tanking seasons where they tried their best to make the playoffs but came up short as miserable?  That would be strange given your view on what teams should do.  

All I can do is figure your talking point is "minimum of 5 years" and you are relying on alternative facts for this series of posts.