John Collins--Karl Malone 2.0?

[nathan2331]

Al Horford is the NBAs Eden Harzard

Not a bad comaprison, but Horford has never been a superstar. He does a lot of great things, but at the end of the day he's not taking a game over.

[NBASupes]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Al Horford is the NBAs Eden Harzard

 

Not a bad comaprison, but Horford has never been a superstar. He does a lot of great things, but at the end of the day he's not taking a game over.

But he has. It's just not in the way of scoring. He control tempo. The only big I've ever seen able to do that in my life. 

[NBASupes]

Al does so much elite but everyone wants to focus on scoring or high def passes when impacting possession after possession is the most impossible thing any NBA player can do and Al is elite in it. 

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Al does so much elite but everyone wants to focus on scoring or high def passes when impacting possession after possession is the most impossible thing any NBA player can do and Al is elite in it. 

I agree.  We still have fans who are caught in the rut of thinking that scoring = superstar.  Al Horford isn't a scorer, but he does everything else on the floor at an elite level except rebounding.  The guy is a great defender.  He's a highly efficient shooter.  He's a high level passer from the big position.  He can space the floor with both his shot and passing.  He can switch defensively 1-5.  

Most will disagree, but he's the best player on the Celtics team, not Kyrie Irving.  He's the reason the Celtics did not fall off after Irving's injury.  

[nathan2331]

Al does so much elite but everyone wants to focus on scoring or high def passes when impacting possession after possession is the most impossible thing any NBA player can do and Al is elite in it. 

Horford's impact is belittled when the likes of Tristan Thompson are abusing him on the boards. Time and time again I've watched the Hawks and now the Celtics struggle to get a bucket and Horford can't do anything to change that. I'm not saying he sucks, but the stats in key games speak for themselves. He's the best role player a role player can be, not a superstar.

[thecampster]

On 7/10/2018 at 10:47 AM, Peoriabird said:

John is more of an athlete... Malone was more skill

You're thinking of 33 year old Karl Malone, not 20 year old college player Karl Malone

 

[thecampster]

As seen here.

 

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Al does so much elite but everyone wants to focus on scoring or high def passes when impacting possession after possession is the most impossible thing any NBA player can do and Al is elite in it. 

 

Horford's impact is belittled when the likes of Tristan Thompson are abusing him on the boards. Time and time again I've watched the Hawks and now the Celtics struggle to get a bucket and Horford can't do anything to change that. I'm not saying he sucks, but the stats in key games speak for themselves. He's the best role player a role player can be, not a superstar.

LeBron struggles with Iggy. MJ used to hate Ron Harper on the Cavs. Everyone got that player who just matches up well v. Them

[EazyRoc]

9 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

18 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Al does so much elite but everyone wants to focus on scoring or high def passes when impacting possession after possession is the most impossible thing any NBA player can do and Al is elite in it. 

 

Horford's impact is belittled when the likes of Tristan Thompson are abusing him on the boards. Time and time again I've watched the Hawks and now the Celtics struggle to get a bucket and Horford can't do anything to change that. I'm not saying he sucks, but the stats in key games speak for themselves. He's the best role player a role player can be, not a superstar.

Yeah. One of the best role players of the era, but he is what he is. He’s definitely not a superstar. He definitely is a net positive overall, but he’s not a real game changer, superstar type player.

[nathan2331]

LeBron struggles with Iggy. MJ used to hate Ron Harper on the Cavs. Everyone got that player who just matches up well v. Them

That's true, but if you want to be a superstar, you need to overcome those struggles at some point. I'll give Al credit for making it to the playoffs 10 out of his 11 seasons, but he's a big reason his teams can never beat LeBron. The Celtics needed him to step up just like we once needed him, but he can't answer the call.

[NBASupes]

31 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

47 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

LeBron struggles with Iggy. MJ used to hate Ron Harper on the Cavs. Everyone got that player who just matches up well v. Them

 

That's true, but if you want to be a superstar, you need to overcome those struggles at some point. I'll give Al credit for making it to the playoffs 10 out of his 11 seasons, but he's a big reason his teams can never beat LeBron. The Celtics needed him to step up just like we once needed him, but he can't answer the call.

Hawk fans call Nique a superstar and he only came close once to beating Bird. Al did the same.

[capstone21]

47 minutes ago, EazyRoc said:

Yeah. One of the best role players of the era, but he is what he is. He’s definitely not a superstar. He definitely is a net positive overall, but he’s not a real game changer, superstar type player.

No, he is not a superstar and yes he is a role player but he is definitely a game changer.  

[EazyRoc]

6 minutes ago, capstone21 said:

No, he is not a superstar and yes he is a role player but he is definitely a game changer.  

Nah I don’t agree. He’s just a good piece. 

[nathan2331]

Hawk fans call Nique a superstar and he only came close once to beating Bird. Al did the same.

Nique barely had help, and he was going up against some all-time great players and teams. Al has had similar hurdles having to get past LeBron his whole career, but Al has never put the team on his back to try and drag them to a win. If he's a superstar, he'd at least try. 17 pts 4 rebounds just isn't good enough.

[NBASupes]

37 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Hawk fans call Nique a superstar and he only came close once to beating Bird. Al did the same.

 

Nique barely had help, and he was going up against some all-time great players and teams. Al has had similar hurdles having to get past LeBron his whole career, but Al has never put the team on his back to try and drag them to a win. If he's a superstar, he'd at least try. 17 pts 4 rebounds just isn't good enough.

Al did a lot to help his team. A lot

[nathan2331]

Al did a lot to help his team. A lot

No doubt. But he didn't put us on his back. Never even tried. At the end of the day someone has to score. He's a role player and nothing more because he doesn't try to be anything greater. The Celtics needed him to step up in Game 7, but he just kept doing his thing. Nique is so highly regarded in Atlanta because he took on the challenge to be the best player on the court.

 

Even though Smoove didn't know what made him valuable, he at least tried to be great. He was delusional, and his demise is his own doing but he wanted to be great. You can't win a championship if your best player can't take over when it's time.

[AHF]

Al is the perfect third guy on a championship team.  If he is your best player on the team, you aren't contending for a ring.  He has been pushed around and abused by not just Tristan Thompson but by a number of big men with greater size and strength.  His scoring efficiency is nice but is less meaningful when it isn't scalable for volume and where he can't create buckets when his team needs them.  He is a very good passer but the offense doesn't run through him - instead he is a perfect link in a chain that ends up with a quality shot.  He is assisted on 97% of his 3's and 70% of his 2pt shots which speaks to his ability to successfully function in a system but also that he has no tools to impact the game offensively if there is sand in the gears of the system.

None of that takes away from the fact that he is a hugely important part of every team he has ever been on.  Hugely important.  He is absolutely a plus passer at his position, a versatile and very valuable defender, and a quality scorer who can fit into any system.

For me, that is not a superstar but is a star role player or star secondary player.  Again, any superstar should be able to be the best player on a championship team and he absolutely cannot be that guy.

His best case scenario if he gets a ring is to be paired with similar value players (guys who could be excellent #2 or #3 guys) with varied skill sets and run ala the Billups / Wallace / Wallace / Prince / Rip Pistons.  

[bird_dirt]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Al is the perfect third guy on a championship team.  If he is your best player on the team, you aren't contending for a ring.  He has been pushed around and abused by not just Tristan Thompson but by a number of big men with greater size and strength.  His scoring efficiency is nice but is less meaningful when it isn't scalable for volume and where he can't create buckets when his team needs them.  He is a very good passer but the offense doesn't run through him - instead he is a perfect link in a chain that ends up with a quality shot.  He is assisted on 97% of his 3's and 70% of his 2pt shots which speaks to his ability to successfully function in a system but also that he has no tools to impact the game offensively if there is sand in the gears of the system.

None of that takes away from the fact that he is a hugely important part of every team he has ever been on.  Hugely important.  He is absolutely a plus passer at his position, a versatile and very valuable defender, and a quality scorer who can fit into any system.

For me, that is not a superstar but is a star role player or star secondary player.  Again, any superstar should be able to be the best player on a championship team and he absolutely cannot be that guy.

His best case scenario if he gets a ring is to be paired with similar value players (guys who could be excellent #2 or #3 guys) with varied skill sets and run ala the Billups / Wallace / Wallace / Prince / Rip Pistons.  

This. Thank you. Get off the dude's sack for a minute folks.

He.

Is.

Not.

Malone.

 

[CBAreject]

In Al Horford and Paul Millsap, we had two of the top 30 players in the NBA.  Neither can be called a superstar, but they were both underrated.  Put those two with a bonafide superstar, and you have a championship team.  Al just isn't a superstar.  It doesn't just have to do with scoring.  It's just that he did several things well, somethings just ok, but nothing great.  His ability to space the floor is what made him so valuable, but at the same time, his lack of go-to offensive moves and rebounding really kept him from being elite.  You might call him underrated, but the fact that he made a few all-star teams calls that into question, as does the huge contract he got with Boston.  He's been valued very highly in his career, and deservedly.  

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Al is the perfect third guy on a championship team.  If he is your best player on the team, you aren't contending for a ring.  He has been pushed around and abused by not just Tristan Thompson but by a number of big men with greater size and strength.  His scoring efficiency is nice but is less meaningful when it isn't scalable for volume and where he can't create buckets when his team needs them.  He is a very good passer but the offense doesn't run through him - instead he is a perfect link in a chain that ends up with a quality shot.  He is assisted on 97% of his 3's and 70% of his 2pt shots which speaks to his ability to successfully function in a system but also that he has no tools to impact the game offensively if there is sand in the gears of the system.

None of that takes away from the fact that he is a hugely important part of every team he has ever been on.  Hugely important.  He is absolutely a plus passer at his position, a versatile and very valuable defender, and a quality scorer who can fit into any system.

For me, that is not a superstar but is a star role player or star secondary player.  Again, any superstar should be able to be the best player on a championship team and he absolutely cannot be that guy.

His best case scenario if he gets a ring is to be paired with similar value players (guys who could be excellent #2 or #3 guys) with varied skill sets and run ala the Billups / Wallace / Wallace / Prince / Rip Pistons.  

You only talk about one side of the court in this post. His best ability is defensive. That's where his impact is the largest.