Ask Supes

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Word it however you want - there is no case to be made that Bud "would have" brought Al back because Bud was there and Al walked.  They weren't able to stop him from walking if you like that phrasing better.  My point is that with Budcox at the helm and running the team toward maximum wins, they sailed that ship into the 2016-17 season without Horford.

Bud wanted Al back more than anyone else. To say Bud was there is like blaming Dave Joerger for passing on Luka when Luka was his guy from the jump. 

[AHF]

Just now, KB21 said:

So where is the winning?  What I see is a group of young players who don’t know how to win coached by a coach who doesn’t know how to win.  I’m also starting to see some frustration building already with their “star” player due to the losing.  Another top 3 pick isn’t going to change this.

Schlenk clearly steered this ship toward a losing record this year, projecting 30 wins if things went right.  Then Kev was hurt, JC was suspended and the vets underperformed (which he already acknowledged screwing up).  He reportedly is now looking to acquire more "win now" talent to finish the year on "more winning" trend heading into next season with a roster more focused on winning.  So the big "will they actually compete for the playoffs if Schlenk's plan is supposed to work?" moment for TS is next season.

[macdaddy]

Just now, KB21 said:

So where is the winning?  What I see is a group of young players who don’t know how to win coached by a coach who doesn’t know how to win.  I’m also starting to see some frustration building already with their “star” player due to the losing.  Another top 3 pick isn’t going to change this.

We aren't going to do nothing but add another pick.  Winning is coming.  Rome wasn't built in a day. There's never been a team that contended every season.  No matter how lucky or smart you are you're going to have to live with some crappy seasons at some point. 

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Bud wanted Al back more than anyone else. To say Bud was there is like blaming Dave Joerger for passing on Luka when Luka was his guy from the jump. 

Bud may have wanted Al back but Al didn't come back.  We were talking about the merits of TS's approach to team building and the theoretical alternate realities where the team decided not to hire TS and to keep competing instead of tearing down.  There is no alternate reality here where TS's presence prevented the team from bringing back Al and so the removal of that presence allows Bud to retain Horford. 

Bud was the President of Basketball Operations when Horford left.  Whatever authority he had at that time was as much as he was going to get and so if that arrangement didn't work to allow him to keep Horford, there was no alternate reality where "but for" TS Bud is able to keep Horford and this team becomes a contender.

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

So where is the winning?  What I see is a group of young players who don’t know how to win coached by a coach who doesn’t know how to win.  I’m also starting to see some frustration building already with their “star” player due to the losing.  Another top 3 pick isn’t going to change this.

Give it time. LP is an excellent talent, he is learning on the job. We gave non talents like Woody years to figure it out and reach his potential. We gotta give him time to figure it out. 

The kids need time to figure it out. It's that simple. Once we had key vets, which we already added Jeff, we will see a different team.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Bud may have wanted Al back but Al didn't come back.  We were talking about the merits of TS's approach to team building and the theoretical alternate realities where the team decided not to hire TS and to keep competing instead of tearing down.  There is no alternate reality here where TS's presence prevented the team from bringing back Al.  Bud was the President of Basketball Operations for that.  Whatever authority he had at that time was as much as he was going to get and so if it didn't work to allow him to keep Horford, there was no alternate reality where "but for" TS that happens.

Al would have stayed had they not signed Dwight, and signing Dwight was not a decision made by Bud.  It was made by Tony Ressler.

[Watchman]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

We aren't going to do nothing but add another pick.  Winning is coming.  Rome wasn't built in a day. There's never been a team that contended every season.  No matter how lucky or smart you are you're going to have to live with some crappy seasons at some point. 

The big question is can we turn it around before the young guys like Trae get sick of losing.

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Give it time. LP is an excellent talent, he is learning on the job. We gave non talents like Woody years to figure it out and reach his potential. We gotta give him time to figure it out. 

The kids need time to figure it out. It's that simple. Once we had key vets, which we already added Jeff, we will see a different team.

How much more time?  It’s already been three wasted years.  Things aren’t getting much better for next year.  

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Al would have stayed had they not signed Dwight, and signing Dwight was not a decision made by Bud.  It was made by Tony Ressler.

First, that is conjecture.  Al may have bolted anyway.  He was already talking to IT and other Celtics about joining mid-season in 2015-16.

But let's grant you that.  And....where does that get you?  Ressler owned the team.  He and Budcox worked together and made those calls.

Are you now arguing that if Bud had bought the team that we would be in a different place and that him being owner of this team is remotely realistic?  
If Bud couldn't control Ressler's bad impulses then what changes in your "look-back" machine to get Al to stay?  Is it that Bud is somehow able to convince both Al and Ressler to walk a different path if Doc Brown shows up?

I don't get this at all.  I get the notion that the team would have looked very different if TS wasn't hired and Bud stayed.  But for Horford nothing changes!  Bud is still the President.  Ressler is still the owner.  Horford still walks.

[KB21]

Losing begets more losing.

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Losing begets more losing.

Memphis and Dallas probably disagree at this point.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

First, that is conjecture.  Al may have bolted anyway.  He was already talking to IT and other Celtics about joining mid-season in 2015-16.

But let's grant you that.  And....where does that get you?  Ressler owned the team.  He and Budcox worked together and made those calls.

Are you now arguing that if Bud had bought the team that we would be in a different place and that him being owner of this team is remotely realistic?  
If Bud couldn't control Ressler's bad impulses then what changes in your "look-back" machine to get Al to stay?  Is it that Bud is somehow able to convince both Al and Ressler to walk a different path if Doc Brown shows up?

I don't get this at all.

Ressler is the owner.  No one was ever going to control his impulses because he owned the team.  He saw a marketing opportunity with Dwight and went after it.  That decision was not on Bud.  

Here’s the bottom line though.  Bud is coaching a championship caliber team now, and his coaching is the biggest difference in what that team was and what it is now.  We ran that off in the name of tanking.  

And now we are stuck with LP.  

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Memphis and Dallas probably disagree at this point.

Neither one of those organizations focused on losing.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Losing begets more losing.

Like those Chicago Bulls.  34 wins, 28 wins, 27 wins.  Drafted MJ.  They then put up losing records for 3 more seasons, drafting Oakley (flipped for Bill Carwright), Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant.

I'm pretty certain it begat more losing until the end of time.  

[KB21]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Like those Chicago Bulls.  34 wins, 28 wins, 27 wins.  Drafted MJ.  They then put up losing records for 3 more seasons, drafting Oakley (flipped for Bill Carwright), Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant.

I'm pretty certain it begat more losing until the end of time.  

It was also a different time back then with players who were more ready to play in the NBA coming into the league.  Quite unlike today, where the majority of the guys coming in are AAU stars who lack the requisite mentality to help teams win.

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, KB21 said:

How much more time?  It’s already been three wasted years.  Things aren’t getting much better for next year.  

Three years? We are literally on year 2.

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Ressler is the owner.  No one was ever going to control his impulses because he owned the team.  He saw a marketing opportunity with Dwight and went after it.  That decision was not on Bud.  

Here’s the bottom line though.  Bud is coaching a championship caliber team now, and his coaching is the biggest difference in what that team was and what it is now.  We ran that off in the name of tanking.  

So under your alternate reality, it is still Bud running the show without Al Horford coming into 2017-18.  And likely missing the playoffs and picking around #13 without any real success in the draft to go on instead of getting Trae.

I agree with you that Bud is an excellent coach but disagree if you think Giannis isn't the engine behind Milwaukee's success.  He was on the path to superstardom before Bud arrived.  Bud has done a good job there but has yet to actually get close to a title.  This could be the year for the two of them.  Not even Pops has won a title (or even made the finals) without his "tank you very much" MVP.

That wasn't happening with him running the Hawks trying to compete with the remains of the 2016-17 roster which was constituted under his watch as President of Basketball Operations.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Three years? We are literally on year 2.

He counts the first year the team stopped winning - not the first year they reaped the results of that not winning.  I think he is fair to count this as year 3 as the price to pay for tearing down is a horrible first year.  So this is year 3 of the losing by design and year 2 of adding players from that design.

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Three years? We are literally on year 2.

Nope.  This is the third year of losing.  

[NBASupes]

24 minutes ago, KB21 said:

It was also a different time back then with players who were more ready to play in the NBA coming into the league.  Quite unlike today, where the majority of the guys coming in are AAU stars who lack the requisite mentality to help teams win.

I wouldn't say it's the AAU culture as much as they are younger and not physically mature yet but skills wise, they are miles ahead of those from the 80s. They just need development in other areas.

[bird_dirt]

2 points:

1. People need put some respect on speaking about the 60 win team. It was an amazing season, and an amazing team to watch. They were contenders until they lost Thabo, Korver, and DMC (for all practical purposes). Not favorites, but contenders.

2. Re: value of this draft...I think it's pretty established that ppl are feeling it's Wiseman, Edwards, or bust. Just a reminder that no one was talking about Ja at little Murray State University in January and thinking he would be leading ROY candidate. There's a lot that can shake out between now and the draft.

TS has done a good job putting together a young team and flexibility, but now is the time to start cashing in on assets and opportunities. Between now and the start of next season is when he will show how good of a GM he can be.