Best possible offseason for all ready to make moves teams in the NBA

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Hey, I've made it more than clear that I ain't reading more than 1 or 3 sentences per post.

If one-a y'all ask me some long-winded question, I instantly morph into Mariah...

Well i keep asking for an example of a team that contended with an elite offensive PG and an elite defensive center and a bunch of role players.   It might work but we would be a unicorn for sure.  

[Final_quest]

8 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Well i keep asking for an example of a team that contended with an elite offensive PG and an elite defensive center and a bunch of role players.   It might work but we would be a unicorn for sure.  

It’s old school, but Bill Russell and Bob Cousy won quite a few.  
 

The modern example would be AI and Mutumbo.  
 

You might also make a case for Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups.  
 

How many guys qualify as elite defensive centers on Gobert’s level?  

[JayBirdHawk]

46 minutes ago, kg01 said:

@NBASupes what do you think about the notion that, despite being an elite defender, Gobert isn't good on the perimeter defending?

Some folks say, due to that, he's a liability in the playoffs and late in games.

Personally, I see him as basically a better version of Capela but they have similar weaknesses.  Not the 'same' weaknesses, just similar (re-stating that for effect).

So, all in all, he's an upgrade for sure.  The question becomes the money.  Is he that much of an upgrade once his contract is factored in?

Second question, does he make us a contender?  I'd say he puts us closer but it still hinges on what we do on the wing(s).

Regular season Rudy - great.

Playoff Rudy - not so much, just good and not $37 mil worthy.

In the playoffs, Teams have an easy game plan to take him out the game by playing 5 out and/or going small and unfortunately he's not good enough on idividual offense to offset and advantage of teams smaller size. 

And I'll say again until our wings can offer a more consistent effort with their perimter defense, Rudy by himself won't 'neutralize' Trae's defense, he'll be in foul trouble often.

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

It’s old school, but Bill Russell and Bob Cousy won quite a few.  
 

The modern example would be AI and Mutumbo.  
 

You might also make a case for Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups.  
 

How many guys qualify as elite defensive centers on Gobert’s level?  

I'd hardly say those guys were role players other than the AI/Mutombo combo.  Hamilton, Wallace and Prince were significantly better than role players.  The gap between Wallace/Billups and Hamilton/Wallace isn't big as far as their importance.  Well balanced roster.

Obviously, the Celtics had multiple HOFers in addition to Russell and Cousy.

The reality is that in most cases the elite defensive centers who won rings were also elite offensive options like Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, Shaq, etc. so they don't parallel with guys like Russell, Wallace, and Mutombo who were limited offensive contributors.  Not a huge list of guys in that category.

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

It’s old school, but Bill Russell and Bob Cousy won quite a few.  
 

The modern example would be AI and Mutumbo.  
 

You might also make a case for Ben Wallace and Chauncey Billups.  
 

How many guys qualify as elite defensive centers on Gobert’s level?  

I'll accept AI and Deke.  That's a good example although they never came close to contending outside of that one season.  Granted Mutombo was no spring chicken.  

Wallace/billups?  Nah.  Rip was also an allstar and big time scorer.  

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'll accept AI and Deke.  That's a good example although they never came close to contending outside of that one season.  Granted Mutombo was no spring chicken.  

Wallace/billups?  Nah.  Rip was also an allstar and big time scorer.  

When the Pistons were in the NBA finals they were a group effort - not a big 2.

When you look at their metrics, it is truly a balanced group.

2004 Champion Pistons - #2 starter in WS/48 Rasheed Wallace; #3 & #4 in total WS Tayshaun Prince & Rip Hamilton

2005 Runner-Up Pistons extremely balanced.  Billups 12.1 WS / Prince 9.4 WS / B. Wallace 8.5 WS / R. Hamilton 7.4 WS / R. Wallace 7.1 WS

[kg01]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

It’s old school, but Bill Russell and Bob Cousy won quite a few.  

I'd only cite the 'accomplishments' of these teams, yes Russell included, if we can eliminate 90% of the talent from the NBA.  Since that's essentially the quality they faced.

Don't @ me, broooooooosssssssss .....

[Spud2nique]

4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Since that's essentially the quality they faced.

Those old geezers would mess you up and you know it!

 

 

 

 

having said that I agree. Bill Russell vs Old man Tom. 

[kg01]

48 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Those old geezers would mess you up and you know it!

having said that I agree. Bill Russell vs Old man Tom. 

Ayyeee, I said don't @ me, bro. 

Folks keep actin' like them Selltic teams were great.  Nah the league was trash back then, sun.

You show me a team that wins 10 of 11 titles in a row and I'll show you a trash league.

[AHF]

53 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'd only cite the 'accomplishments' of these teams, yes Russell included, if we can eliminate 90% of the talent from the NBA.  Since that's essentially the quality they faced.

Don't @ me, broooooooosssssssss .....

They also faced much more stacked teams since the number of teams was lower.  Like here are the notable big men around the league in 1965:

Celtics:  HOF Bill Russell

Royals:  HOF Jerry Lucas (to go with the Big O)

Sixers:  HOF Wilt Chamberlein

Knicks:  HOF Willis Reed

Lakers:  No one (big names were Jerry West and Elgin Baylor who were wings)

Hawks:  HOF Bob Pettit (also 5x All-Star Zelmo Beaty)

Bullets:  HOF Walt Bellamy

Pistons:  HOF Dave DeBusschere

Warriors:  HOF Nate Thurmond

 

Not a lot of off nights with only 9 teams even with the more shallow talent pool.  

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, kg01 said:

@NBASupes what do you think about the notion that, despite being an elite defender, Gobert isn't good on the perimeter defending?

Some folks say, due to that, he's a liability in the playoffs and late in games.

Personally, I see him as basically a better version of Capela but they have similar weaknesses.  Not the 'same' weaknesses, just similar (re-stating that for effect).

So, all in all, he's an upgrade for sure.  The question becomes the money.  Is he that much of an upgrade once his contract is factored in?

Second question, does he make us a contender?  I'd say he puts us closer but it still hinges on what we do on the wing(s).

He's a drop center, I don't know one center outside of Horford who can defend on the perimeter at a decent level and even he can't stay in front of the scorers in the NBA on the perimeter. Protecting the paint is a million times more value than protecting the perimeter in terms of impact on defense. 

Gobert has never been an liability on defense in my eyes. 

He's much better than Capela. Much better. 45 wins to 30 wins. With Trae, I truly think those wins would go up to 50 win and maybe 55. 

Of course he makes us a contender. That's easy money. 

 

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Regular season Rudy - great.

Playoff Rudy - not so much, just good and not $37 mil worthy.

In the playoffs, Teams have an easy game plan to take him out the game by playing 5 out and/or going small and unfortunately he's not good enough on idividual offense to offset and advantage of teams smaller size. 

And I'll say again until our wings can offer a more consistent effort with their perimter defense, Rudy by himself won't 'neutralize' Trae's defense, he'll be in foul trouble often.

That's a terrible game plan. 4 on 3 is terrible as is putting a smaller player on Gobert. People love using that Utah/LAC series but it's like the Horford/CLE series. The others were the issue. LeBron was the issue v. Cleveland. He forced Horford out of position making it easy for TT to get easy buckets because Atlanta couldn't do nothing with LeBron. 

Conley and Mitchell were damn near broken in the last game v. LAC. They couldn't barely move.  Before that, Utah was killing LAC even with Kawhi playing. 

Conley and Mitchell injuries is what hurt them but blaming Gobert for it is lame as hell to me. 

You gonna die on the wrong hill about the wings as you did last year with JC. I remember getting called out about JC and that contract. Now who's right?

[kg01]

28 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's a drop center, I don't know one center outside of Horford who can defend on the perimeter at a decent level and even he can't stay in front of the scorers in the NBA on the perimeter. Protecting the paint is a million times more value than protecting the perimeter in terms of impact on defense. 

Gobert has never been an liability on defense in my eyes. 

He's much better than Capela. Much better. 45 wins to 30 wins. With Trae, I truly think those wins would go up to 50 win and maybe 55. 

Of course he makes us a contender. That's easy money. 

 

Well then you're gonna have to explain how/why UTA fades and falters every year despite having a better overall team than the Hawks right now.

I agree Gobert is clearly an upgrade but I'm doubtful he can walk in by himself and elevate the Hawks to a contender.

And are you crowing about being 'right' about the Collins contract?  That's unfair.  The whole team underachieved except Trae.  You're gonna put that all on Collins?

[shakes]

3 hours ago, kg01 said:

Hey, I've made it more than clear that I ain't reading more than 1 or 3 sentences per post.

If one-a y'all ask me some long-winded question, I instantly morph into Mariah...

I'm the same way.  I've got time for a paragraph at most and even then I tend to skim or just read the first couple sentences.

 

[JayBirdHawk]

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

 

You gonna die on the wrong hill about the wings as you did last year with JC. I remember getting called out about JC and that contract. Now who's right?

Uuuuhhhh....definitely not you. And our wings have not lived up to their part of the bargain.

[JayBirdHawk]

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

People love using that Utah/LAC series

Tell me about about all of Utah's spectacular performances with Gobert's defense in the playoffs where Gobert's defense made a difference when the rest of the team struggled. 

[Spud2nique]

Gobert hasn’t done much in the playoffs. He would be an upgrade but again at what cost. I want a 2 way player. I know they aren’t available but I dunno, what’s the ceiling with Rudy? 2nd 3rd round. We been to the 3rd round and I don’t take it for granted but we need a chip with Trae. Get serious and get the next best available 2 way star in Atlanta and let’s go for it for a decade. Every year like the 80’s Lakers and Celts. We should be contending with Trae every season till 2030.

[hylndr11]

not sure how realistic it is going to be to get another star to come even if available, the ones we want, not sure they want to play here - or would rather be the star on their own team because they wont be with Trae.  I think the idea was that one of Hunter or Reddish would pan out and along with what we added last year we would be contending.  I think Ayton/gobert something along the lines of upgrading one of our starters a bit at the expense of depth is all Travis is going to be able to do here.  

[h4wkfan]

I don’t watch jazz games so don’t have much first hand knowledge to add. But $40m for articles like these does not excite me. 
 

https://fansided.com/2021/06/21/rudy-gobert-downfall-jazz-defense/amp/

https://www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nba/2021/6/19/22541147/rudy-gobert-jazz-vs-clippers-game-6-nba-playoffs-2021

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/clippers-expose-jazzs-weaknesses-stunning-comeback-series-finale/sn-amp/

https://franchisesports.co.uk/gobert-simmons-playoff-struggles-2021/

Edited April 9, 2022 by h4wkfan

[JayBirdHawk]

On 4/5/2022 at 9:51 AM, NBASupes said:

I really don't understand what's so hard about prioritizing Gobert.

I will be watching Gobert closely in this series vs the Mavericks.