The John Collins Conundrum

[NBASupes]

Recording: https://voca.ro/1fB8NlcDSloU

First one of the series: 

 

[TRW]

I might be in the minority but I believe John Collins is an above average starter in this league. He is a pick and roll guy who has been fazed out because his team brought in a center who can only pick and roll. That move forced John Collins out to the perimeter area, which limits him from doing his best skill. Whether than complain, he adjusted and made himself a decent three point shooter. John wanted more touches but he didn't complain in public but brought his concerns behind doors to the front office. You give John Collins a Point Guard like Trae and a Center like Myles Turner you would see an increase in his numbers because Turner would be out on the perimeter and John would be able to play pick and roll, which is what he does best. As for defense in the playoffs, no one stopped Giannis and Brook Lopez was just to big for John, he is 4 inches taller and has a longer wing span. I believe the Hawks gave John a fair deal and whoever gets him will appreciate what he brings. John is a 20pt. 9reb. guy with decent defense and a lot of positive energy. Once the cap goes up in 2 years John Collins contract will be a bargain. So the real question is this. If we never traded for Capela (and believe me we needed Capela and I'm glad we have him), would we be saying that John Collins is not a good fit for this offense? We all know the truth. As we move forward and John is moved, I hope it works out for us and John as well. The kid appears to have his head in the right place and I'm proud to call him an Atlanta Hawk.

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, TRW said:

I might be in the minority but I believe John Collins is an above average starter in this league. He is a pick and roll guy who has been fazed out because his team brought in a center who can only pick and roll. That move forced John Collins out to the perimeter area, which limits him from doing his best skill. Whether than complain, he adjusted and made himself a decent three point shooter. John wanted more touches but he didn't complain in public but brought his concerns behind doors to the front office. You give John Collins a Point Guard like Trae and a Center like Myles Turner you would see an increase in his numbers because Turner would be out on the perimeter and John would be able to play pick and roll, which is what he does best. As for defense in the playoffs, no one stopped Giannis and Brook Lopez was just to big for John, he is 4 inches taller and has a longer wing span. I believe the Hawks gave John a fair deal and whoever gets him will appreciate what he brings. John is a 20pt. 9reb. guy with decent defense and a lot of positive energy. Once the cap goes up in 2 years John Collins contract will be a bargain. So the real question is this. If we never traded for Capela (and believe me we needed Capela and I'm glad we have him), would we be saying that John Collins is not a good fit for this offense? We all know the truth. As we move forward and John is moved, I hope it works out for us and John as well. The kid appears to have his head in the right place and I'm proud to call him an Atlanta Hawk.

Myles Turner fits John Collins exceptionally well and fit Trae Young poorly. We aren't going to appease JC over Trae. 

[TRW]

I don't want Myles Turner on our team over Capela. I was just making a point of the kind of Center that John Collins needs to play with. I agree Trae is our best player and we should put the right pieces around him.

[RedDawg#8]

1 hour ago, TRW said:

As for defense in the playoffs, no one stopped Giannis and Brook Lopez was just to big for John, he is 4 inches taller and has a longer wing span. 

Still listening , but I just want to say that regarding the Bucks, we were winning and about to be up 2-1 before Trae went down. And we blew them out without Trae and Giannis only playing 3 quarters in game 4.

My point? Giannis vs JC wasn’t a deciding factor in that series. Bucks closed us out without Giannis on the floor for 2.25 games. 

In general however, yes, he is a tough cover for JC. He is not considered one of the top 3 basketball players in the world for no reason. Clint can’t guard him either.

Giannis is a unicorn, and it’s ironic that only another unicorn like OO can even remotely contain him.

I don’t think that matchup is an indictment against JC at all. 

[nathan2331]

I disagree strongly with some of the points you made. You're right that JC is more valuable to us than he is to most teams in the league, and we gave him more money than we really needed to. Given the context of an ECF appearance though, you can see why they didn't try to hardball him.

Now my first objection is that a 20-10 Collins can't exist on a good team. That's BS. He's a better player now than he was in 2019. The reason he doesn't put up better numbers is that Capela has been made the primary roll man because he's as you said very limited on offense. That has forced John to become much more perimeter oriented and he's made the adjustment and the sacrifice. The 1-4 PnR works fine we just can't run it as frequently since Capela's defender is in a closer position to help contest a lob. This is something that potentially would be addressed by swapping Capela for Ayton.

Secondly, you made valid criticisms of John's defense, but his defense is not the major weakpoint on our team. He did get hidden in last year's playoffs, but that's a nice benefit of playing next to great defenders. Why put him on Giannis if we have better options on the team? You say he's not a lockdown defender, but most players at that position aren't. You can't name the elite PFs that nobody in the league can guard, then emphasize the fact that Collins can't either. So while a team might have a big that presents Collins with a matchup problem, most teams don't have two. Collins may not be a versatile defender, but teams do not deliberately attack him on switches. They'd rather feast on our guards because they know a double team isn't coming. To reiterate, he's not getting exposed anymore on that end. You brought up Mitch Robinson like he could've killed us, yet he's never shown that in the regular season.

Of course JC isn't a perfect player, but he's not the problem on this team. If we want to see defensive improvement why don't we look at running zone coverages more. Trae sees all different types of defenses to slow him down, yet we barely implement them ourselves (the reason being poor awareness with our perimeter defenders). I don't know why that doesn't get more criticism. We don't help well as a defense, yet it goes under the radar. That's the real difference between us and a good defense. I understand the league is looking for a different archetype than what JC provides, but there's more than one way to play basketball. We don't need an overhaul of the team, and bringing in better players alone is not gonna be enough if we're shipping out one of the biggest voices in the locker room.

[NBASupes]

Great posts from @RedDawg#8 and @nathan2331. I'll address both later this morning. 

[NBASupes]

12 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Still listening , but I just want to say that regarding the Bucks, we were winning and about to be up 2-1 before Trae went down. And we blew them out without Trae and Giannis only playing 3 quarters in game 4.

My point? Giannis vs JC wasn’t a deciding factor in that series. Bucks closed us out without Giannis on the floor for 2.25 games. 

In general however, yes, he is a tough cover for JC. He is not considered one of the top 3 basketball players in the world for no reason. Clint can’t guard him either.

Giannis is a unicorn, and it’s ironic that only another unicorn like OO can even remotely contain him.

I don’t think that matchup is an indictment against JC at all. 

This is a hell of a post. 

JC was getting abuse whenever he was matched up to Lopez and Giannis. In fact, when Giannis got hurt, JC started balling in that game when Giannis hyperextended his knee. 

He's a tough cover for everyone but you gotta be tough when you making this much money. Otherwise, you better be Dirk on offense.

 Clint made it tougher for Giannis, he couldn't stop him but he made Giannis work. 

Randle, Harris, Embiid, Lopez, there was not a lot of good from JC in those playoffs and I won't include this year because of the injury. 

12 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

I disagree strongly with some of the points you made. You're right that JC is more valuable to us than he is to most teams in the league, and we gave him more money than we really needed to. Given the context of an ECF appearance though, you can see why they didn't try to hardball him.

Now my first objection is that a 20-10 Collins can't exist on a good team. That's BS. He's a better player now than he was in 2019. The reason he doesn't put up better numbers is that Capela has been made the primary roll man because he's as you said very limited on offense. That has forced John to become much more perimeter oriented and he's made the adjustment and the sacrifice. The 1-4 PnR works fine we just can't run it as frequently since Capela's defender is in a closer position to help contest a lob. This is something that potentially would be addressed by swapping Capela for Ayton.

Secondly, you made valid criticisms of John's defense, but his defense is not the major weakpoint on our team. He did get hidden in last year's playoffs, but that's a nice benefit of playing next to great defenders. Why put him on Giannis if we have better options on the team? You say he's not a lockdown defender, but most players at that position aren't. You can't name the elite PFs that nobody in the league can guard, then emphasize the fact that Collins can't either. So while a team might have a big that presents Collins with a matchup problem, most teams don't have two. Collins may not be a versatile defender, but teams do not deliberately attack him on switches. They'd rather feast on our guards because they know a double team isn't coming. To reiterate, he's not getting exposed anymore on that end. You brought up Mitch Robinson like he could've killed us, yet he's never shown that in the regular season.

Of course JC isn't a perfect player, but he's not the problem on this team. If we want to see defensive improvement why don't we look at running zone coverages more. Trae sees all different types of defenses to slow him down, yet we barely implement them ourselves (the reason being poor awareness with our perimeter defenders). I don't know why that doesn't get more criticism. We don't help well as a defense, yet it goes under the radar. That's the real difference between us and a good defense. I understand the league is looking for a different archetype than what JC provides, but there's more than one way to play basketball. We don't need an overhaul of the team, and bringing in better players alone is not gonna be enough if we're shipping out one of the biggest voices in the locker room.

His agent was bullshitting wanting him to opt into the tender and what not. Atlanta basically got bluffed and didn't call it. That's the TS doing what he feels is right instead of just doing your job as a GM. 

I think it's a massive weakpoint. Especially from a position most teams get very good defense from in 2021-22. Go to this list. How many PFs on this list you see are bad defenders or defenders who lack positional versatility? You will see that the few you find are on lottery teams? http://www.espn.com/nba/depth Almost everyone has versatility defensively from the 4 because this is a PnR league? 

If you gotta hide a big man, he better be KAT good offensively but JC ain't that good on offense. 

I don't believe he can, your reasoning doesn't give me faith in that either. I can name a TON of PFs in the NBA who can make shit difficult for the elites of the league defensively. Hell, look at this list, it's not that hard: http://www.espn.com/nba/depth

You sure about that: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mitchell-robinson-vs-hawks-2020

No one is perfect, not even Bron or Jordan, what does that even mean, nobody's perfect? 

Because dudes get lost in the sauce awareness wise and we don't have great length on the perimeter to create turnovers. This just creates us getting bombared from 3. 

You do know we got Trae Young on defense right? 

If JC was that way, he wouldn't be in trade talks. 

 

 

[nathan2331]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

His agent was bullshitting wanting him to opt into the tender and what not. Atlanta basically got bluffed and didn't call it. That's the TS doing what he feels is right instead of just doing your job as a GM. 

I think it's a massive weakpoint. Especially from a position most teams get very good defense from in 2021-22. Go to this list. How many PFs on this list you see are bad defenders or defenders who lack positional versatility? You will see that the few you find are on lottery teams? http://www.espn.com/nba/depth Almost everyone has versatility defensively from the 4 because this is a PnR league? 

If you gotta hide a big man, he better be KAT good offensively but JC ain't that good on offense. 

I don't believe he can, your reasoning doesn't give me faith in that either. I can name a TON of PFs in the NBA who can make shit difficult for the elites of the league defensively. Hell, look at this list, it's not that hard: http://www.espn.com/nba/depth

You sure about that: https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mitchell-robinson-vs-hawks-2020

No one is perfect, not even Bron or Jordan, what does that even mean, nobody's perfect? 

Because dudes get lost in the sauce awareness wise and we don't have great length on the perimeter to create turnovers. This just creates us getting bombared from 3. 

You do know we got Trae Young on defense right? 

If JC was that way, he wouldn't be in trade talks. 

• It was definitely poor negotiations, but I don't mind it given our success that season and the fact that JC did adapt his game to the detriment of his own stats. I keep bringing that up because that's asking a lot for a guy who still hasn't been paid yet. When you have success like we did you reward the guys that contributed to it. It may be an overpay, but it's not a crippling mistake.

 

• You're right that a lot of those players have defensive versatility, but I don't think that's a huge indictment on John that he is more limited. My problem with swapping JC for a more versatile defender is that with our current scheme if we switch a screen teams are targetting our guards, not JC. I'm not trying to say versatility is useless, but if one of our guards is switched onto the opposing teams PF, they are going to attack our guard. JC does need to be hidden when he can, but we already have great defenders that complement him. No JC is not KAT, but I do think he's valauble enough on offense that we would see a decline if we swapped him for say Murray then signed someone like PJ Tucker to replace him.

 

• https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mitchell-robinson-vs-hawks-2021 https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mitchell-robinson-vs-hawks-2022I don't remember all these games, but Mitch Robinson hasn't been killing us since we've brought in Capela. Even if John isn't the ideal defender, we're not routinely getting killed by bigs. You can upgrade our bigs defensviely, but it's not gonna have the same impact as upgrading our perimeter defense. Hunter realistically can't be upgraded on, so it should be Bogi or Kev going out. And Trae's got to be better if he's serious about winning. Even if he's a liability due to size, there's no excuse for losing your man as much as he does.

 

• I know we've got Trae, but if we want to take a bigger step defensively, we can't play man2man and expect Capela to clean everything up. Our help defense is our biggest weakness. That's what is seperating the Warriors and the Celtics from most teams. Bringing in better invidual defenders will help, but we also need to be able to implement different coverages. A team like Miami doesn't impress me with their personnel outside of Butler and Adebayo, but they obviously play way more connected than we do. McMillan is always talking about the fist, but it doesn't translate on the court.

Edited June 26, 2022 by nathan2331

[swanlee]

Can we just keep him? Tired of hearing him get hit with trade rumors and he is a key piece to our young core. We can certainly upgrade other positions and keep him.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, swanlee said:

Can we just keep him? Tired of hearing him get hit with trade rumors and he is a key piece to our young core. We can certainly upgrade other positions and keep him.

For now, we will. 

[NBASupes]

PM

1 hour ago, nathan2331 said:

• It was definitely poor negotiations, but I don't mind it given our success that season and the fact that JC did adapt his game to the detriment of his own stats. I keep bringing that up because that's asking a lot for a guy who still hasn't been paid yet. When you have success like we did you reward the guys that contributed to it. It may be an overpay, but it's not a crippling mistake.

 

• You're right that a lot of those players have defensive versatility, but I don't think that's a huge indictment on John that he is more limited. My problem with swapping JC for a more versatile defender is that with our current scheme if we switch a screen teams are targetting our guards, not JC. I'm not trying to say versatility is useless, but if one of our guards is switched onto the opposing teams PF, they are going to attack our guard. JC does need to be hidden when he can, but we already have great defenders that complement him. No JC is not KAT, but I do think he's valauble enough on offense that we would see a decline if we swapped him for say Murray then signed someone like PJ Tucker to replace him.

 

• https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mitchell-robinson-vs-hawks-2021 https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mitchell-robinson-vs-hawks-2022I don't remember all these games, but Mitch Robinson hasn't been killing us since we've brought in Capela. Even if John isn't the ideal defender, we're not routinely getting killed by bigs. You can upgrade our bigs defensviely, but it's not gonna have the same impact as upgrading our perimeter defense. Hunter realistically can't be upgraded on, so it should be Bogi or Kev going out. And Trae's got to be better if he's serious about winning. Even if he's a liability due to size, there's no excuse for losing your man as much as he does.

 

• I know we've got Trae, but if we want to take a bigger step defensively, we can't play man2man and expect Capela to clean everything up. Our help defense is our biggest weakness. That's what is seperating the Warriors and the Celtics from most teams. Bringing in better invidual defenders will help, but we also need to be able to implement different coverages. A team like Miami doesn't impress me with their personnel outside of Butler and Adebayo, but they obviously play way more connected than we do. McMillan is always talking about the fist, but it doesn't translate on the court.

I can agree with you on #1 and still think it was a mistake.

I think it's a massive indictment. I've been on record over a thousand times for saying, I'll rather defense from the 4 than offense unless the offense is elite. The 4 in today's NBA has to be positionally versatile because of the shooters and PnRs across the league. You have to defend guys at the rim, in space, on switches, you gotta have tremendous versatility to be a modern 4 defensively. 

I am not sold on these offensive reasons. Most of our guards make teams pay for doubling. The Miami series had a number of others issues offensively. We shouldn't use that as reasoning. 

You gotta have elite offense, otherwise, you just hurting your team. Even with elite offense, you hurting your team but you are capable of returning the favor on the other end. If you start looking like we need to sub you, you aren't worth what you think you are. Gallo is the prime example, he would get whooped on, we had to sub his ass. P.J. ain't coming here.

That's Clint, I am talking about him killing John. Randle was being guarded effectively by Clint, Dre, and Gallo. JC was hidden on Noel and Gibson. We wouldn't been able to get away with that if Robinson was healthy that series. 

I agree but upgrading guys is extremely difficult in this league and the opportunity must present themselves and you must win the bid. That's not easy to do. 

Trae gotta stop breaking our defensive integrity on a game to game basis. Trae gotta lock in possession by possession especially on D. Trae gotta bring his best ability to share the load with Kevin, Bogi, Dre, and other wings. He can't just only want them to rock out if they are on fire. That's not how shit works. NBA players are not NBA Jam teammates. 

Our biggest defensive issue, is Trae. The Warriors don't have a weakness like him nor does the Celtics but the Hawks do.

[Watchman]

21 hours ago, swanlee said:

Can we just keep him? Tired of hearing him get hit with trade rumors and he is a key piece to our young core. We can certainly upgrade other positions and keep him.

I would have loved to keep him, but after a while, it gets old having your name come up every draft day, trade deadline, etc.  If I were him, I would want to get out of Atlanta so fast, and hopefully go to a team that appreciated what I bring to the table.  I hope he finds a good team, who appreciates him, and maybe they can get further than we ever will.

I think it's bizarre that we hear that Collins is overpaid, but what about Huerter?  What about Bogi?  Let's say we end up with Murray; we're still stuck with Huerter and Bogi, who have proved they are not worth their big contracts over and over again.  Now we have expensive bench warmers who generate no demand from other teams. 

We overpay Capela too.  He plays no help defense, he just watches anyone who gets by their man drive in to the basket for an easy dunk or layup without a challenge from him.  He can't make point blank bunnies.  He is frequently out due to injury.  Trae going to bat for Capela with the front office shows Trae's disdain for Collins I suppose.  How dare anyone call him out for being a ball hog in team meetings?

The inmate is truly running the asylum.  

 

[sturt]

From today....

 

[JayBirdHawk]

That thing may never look normal ever again...

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

Yo @Mikey.... JC still here, you were so sure he'd be gone.

 

 

Asked about John Collins being in perpetual trade rumors, Fields stresses that Collins is always professional. Fields also says communication and honesty is important between team and player. Says Collins is "still here for a reason."

[Peoriabird]

On 9/23/2022 at 5:12 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

Yo @Mikey.... JC still here, you were so sure he'd be gone.

 

 

Asked about John Collins being in perpetual trade rumors, Fields stresses that Collins is always professional. Fields also says communication and honesty is important between team and player. Says Collins is "still here for a reason."

Hey Mikey! No likey!

[RedDawg#8]

On 9/23/2022 at 3:31 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

That thing may never look normal ever again...

 

 

Did anyone else catch during his presser when he referred to the deformed finger as a "disease" ?

I thought it was interesting especially because the boutonniere injury was supposed to heal back to normal. So maybe he got the injury infected or something and that caused the permanent damage we see now.

There are a ton of retired football and basketball players with jacked up extremities so JC isn't alone. It just seems like such an old school thing as most of these new cats would rather sit out than play injured, risking further damage, which is apparently what happened with JC.

I am glad that he feels good and says it wont effect his basketball ability, despite looking like holy hell.

[JayBirdHawk]

8 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Did anyone else catch during his presser when he referred to the deformed finger as a "disease" ?

I thought it was interesting especially because the boutonniere injury was supposed to heal back to normal. So maybe he got the injury infected or something and that caused the permanent damage we see now.

There are a ton of retired football and basketball players with jacked up extremities so JC isn't alone. It just seems like such an old school thing as most of these new cats would rather sit out than play injured, risking further damage, which is apparently what happened with JC.

I am glad that he feels good and says it wont effect his basketball ability, despite looking like holy hell.

There are two ways to fix it:

1. Wearing a splint 'all the time' when it's caught early - my guess is it wasn't caught early enough and he played with it injured for awhile.

2. Surgery at some point

As long as he's made the adjustment to playing with it and it's not painful, he'll be good.

[Wretch]

On 9/23/2022 at 3:31 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

That thing may never look normal ever again...

 

 

Nothing would make me happier than seeing JC putting the ball on the floor and making things happen (except Clint with just a fraction of a jumper... lol).  I want it to work with JC.  Saw this photo on FB today and I can't stop thinking about the leadership and defensive chemistry