Unless Atlanta willing to spend over the LT this year

[RedDawg#8]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Cam got traded dog. Your point proves you maybe right but he's gone. 

My point is, we are focusing on the wrong things.

JC and his contract may be like the 5th or 6th item down the line of things we need to address. But you choose to make it Defcon 1 as if we are being held hostage by him.

It’s not his fault Kev can’t stay attached to his man off the ball. It’s not his fault Clint can’t make FT’s. It’s not his fault Dre keeps getting hurt everytime he starts to look like himself again.

But yes, before part 2 of “The Conundrum” comes out, lets make another JC thread because we don’t already have enough.

[nathan2331]

18 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It wasn't unstoppable. This passed year was the most lethal it's been with a 1.44 PPP which is the same PPP as Okongwu. It's gives us generally a high PPP but Trae likes to score off of the PnR as a PnR Handler, he struggles to do that with JC, even when JC is paired with Gallo and Gallo just stands at the 3pt line. 

Let's look at the Hawks during LP: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&DateFrom=12%2F22%2F2020&DateTo=03%2F01%2F2021

Look at them, after. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&DateFrom=03%2F01%2F2021

Our offense got 4 spots better and moved up a lot in those games. But the defense went up from 24 to a tie for 10th. That's amazing: 

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&DateFrom=03%2F01%2F2021

 

 When we run JC at the 5 or when we have him with Gallo, the PnR with JC doesn't improve metrics wise for us. 

I would try to counter by showing the Roll man stats from the Hawks before and after LP got fired, but it doesn't look like you can filter dates for those stats. To the best of my knowledge though, Nate didn't change the balance of PnRs between Capela and JC. And I don't think Trae has a problem scoring with JC as the roll man though. I've never seen that. The only difference I can see is that JC likes to slip a lot of screens and defenses can probably switch a 1/4 PnR easier than they can with Capela. But Trae's always found a way to score, I don't think JC as the roll man limits him in any way. If anything, it should make his life easier because JC doesn't have to roll to the basket.

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

I would try to counter by showing the Roll man stats from the Hawks before and after LP got fired, but it doesn't look like you can filter dates for those stats. To the best of my knowledge though, Nate didn't change the balance of PnRs between Capela and JC. And I don't think Trae has a problem scoring with JC as the roll man though. I've never seen that. The only difference I can see is that JC likes to slip a lot of screens and defenses can probably switch a 1/4 PnR easier than they can with Capela. But Trae's always found a way to score, I don't think JC as the roll man limits him in any way. If anything, it should make his life easier because JC doesn't have to roll to the basket.

His percentages were much lower. That was his killer. When we started doing the 1/5 PnR with Clint. Trae averages massively improved. In fact, if you remember, he didn't even make the all star team because he was playing poorly. 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

His percentages were much lower. That was his killer. When we started doing the 1/5 PnR with Clint. Trae averages massively improved. In fact, if you remember, he didn't even make the all star team because he was playing poorly. 

This is just touches along: 

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&TeamID=1610612737&DateFrom=11%2F01%2F2020&DateTo=03%2F01%2F2021

 

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&TeamID=1610612737&DateFrom=03%2F01%2F2021

[sturt]

38 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Your opinions are readily accepted.

 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

Just now, sturt said:

 

 

 

I’m sorry I will always love this.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Who wants to use JC more than he's being used? 

Me!

At minimum, Collins' 3 point attempts need to increase. He's pretty much shooting at the ame clip percentage wise as our wings.

Also, the Hawks should be using him as a secondary passer in the high post. One of the things that I was liking between he and Capela, was Collins getting ball at the FT line and making a decision to throw a quick lob to Capela for the dunk.  Not only could they expand on that, they could create more off the ball action on the perimeter if they utilized the big man as the passer.

To me, Collins has a high enough IQ that we could be asking hin to do more than stand in the corner waiting to shoot the 3 or catch a lob at the rim. But that would take some offensive creativity from the coaching staff.

[nathan2331]

Just now, NBASupes said:

His percentages were much lower. That was his killer. When we started doing the 1/5 PnR with Clint. Trae averages massively improved. In fact, if you remember, he didn't even make the all star team because he was playing poorly. 

I remember his percentages being down. But I also remember the whole team was underperforming and guys were not happy. It would be nice if this team actually played better with the ball out of Trae's hands. 

 

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

This is just touches along: 

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&TeamID=1610612737&DateFrom=11%2F01%2F2020&DateTo=03%2F01%2F2021

 

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&sort=TOUCHES&dir=1&TeamID=1610612737&DateFrom=03%2F01%2F2021

There you go. Yeah that shows Collins was getting less paint touches in the latter part of the season. So there was an adjustment like you're saying, and we were better for it. 

 

[Spud2nique]

Just now, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Me!

At minimum, Collins' 3 point attempts need to increase. He's pretty much shooting at the ame clip percentage wise as our wings.

Also, the Hawks should be using him as a secondary passer in the high post. One of the things that I was liking between he and Capela, was Collins getting ball at the FT line and making a decision to throw a quick lob to Capela for the dunk.  Not only could they expand on that, they could create more off the ball action on the perimeter if they utilized the big man as the passer.

To me, Collins has a high enough IQ that we could be asking hin to do more than stand in the corner waiting to shoot the 3 or catch a lob at the rim. But that would take some offensive creativity from the coaching staff.

I think we may have a creative coach problem… 

[sturt]

Just now, nathan2331 said:

Collins was getting less paint touches in the latter part of the season.

Wonder why that would have been the case, tho.... with a Sta-Puff marshmallow hand.

[nathan2331]

3 minutes ago, sturt said:

Wonder why that would have been the case, tho.... with a Sta-Puff marshmallow hand.

Even still, it did coinicide with the Hawks improvement which supports Supes' argument that we don't need to be running more 1/4 PnR. I still don't agree with him, but the stats show what he's been saying.

Edited June 26, 2022 by nathan2331

[sturt]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

Even still, it did coinicide with the Hawks improvement which supports Supes' argument that we don't need to be running more 1/4 PnR. I still don't agree with him, but the stats show what he's been saying.

Yeah, I'm not even weighing into that... I figure it's all fun and games for us outsiders anyhow, and the people actually analyzing it with some skin in the game are the ones getting paychecks from Ressler... I'm satisfied to assume they're doing what's in their own best self-interest...

 

I'm just honestly amazed that that was the case. Counterintuitive.

[nathan2331]

1 minute ago, sturt said:

Yeah, I'm not even weighing into that... I figure it's all fun and games for us outsiders anyhow, and the people actually analyzing it with some skin in the game are the ones getting paychecks from Ressler... I'm satisfied to assume they're doing what's in their own best self-interest...

 

I'm just honestly amazed that that was the case. Counterintuitive.

I think it's an interesting discussion. It's definitely worth having because the Hawks are limited in how they can improve the roster and based on the rumors it seems like the FO is on Supes side. They clearly don't see him as a foundational piece and I think it could potentially be a horrendous mistake. Supes is right that we have not been a good team when JC has had a bigger role within the offense, but I think if we ship John for an upgrade at guard we're ultimately gonna make ourselves easier to stop offensively. I'd rather swap Capela for Ayton and play through our bigs more. That's a theory that's not widely supported at all in the league though. I think we could break the mold, but teams are not investing in their bigs like I want us too.

[NBASupes]

When it comes to trades, not interested in Murray 

Interested in KD but only if we keep a core with him. Like Bogi, Trae, Hunter, and Capela. We need to keep Okongwu.

JC, Kevin and 5 1sts for KD. 

Clearly want to keep AJ and JJ plus Coop. 

Insider: While the Nets are saying they want to keep KD and saying they are working things out with Kyrie, the believe is, Kyrie opts out, all hell will break loose. 

 

[RedDawg#8]

51 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Me!

At minimum, Collins' 3 point attempts need to increase. He's pretty much shooting at the ame clip percentage wise as our wings.

Also, the Hawks should be using him as a secondary passer in the high post. One of the things that I was liking between he and Capela, was Collins getting ball at the FT line and making a decision to throw a quick lob to Capela for the dunk.  Not only could they expand on that, they could create more off the ball action on the perimeter if they utilized the big man as the passer.

To me, Collins has a high enough IQ that we could be asking hin to do more than stand in the corner waiting to shoot the 3 or catch a lob at the rim. But that would take some offensive creativity from the coaching staff.

I agree. That short roll option with JC to Capela is always there, and is exactly how you punish teams inside when we have 2 PnR threats on the court.

I am also a huge fan of the 2-4 side PnR with Kev and JC. It was very effective in limited use in 20-21. It is a good counter when defenses jam up the strong side.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

No. Lol

1. Cam and Hunter being out with injuries coinciding with Solo and Snell - so more vets less young guys.

2.  Capela also getting healthy was big, but the biggest 

3. Was the return of Bogi from the knee injury.

 

 

 

#3 was the most important.  We fired LP right before Bogi came back in that 2020 - 21 season.  And I think that was by design. 

Yes, it was time for a change, but LP was also playing with people out of the lineup.  It's not like we were anywhere close to full strength when LP and the Hawks was losing games in the 4th quarters of games, it sealed his fate.  But I also think that Schlenk couldn't chance LP turning things around once Bogi came back.  That's why he fired LP the day before Bogi's return.

Bogi was out starting in early-Jan. But it wasn't until when Hunter went out in late-Jan, that things really started to go south.  Combined, we were 10 - 15 in during the time that Bogi was out ( Jan 11h - Mar 1st )  And in that stretch where we didn't have either Bogi or Hunter, the Hawks were 4 - 11.

Reddish got all of the major wing minutes, but was stinking up the court during that stretch ( 10.5 ppg on 35% FG - 20% 3FG shooting ).

Huerter got his chances too, but was pedestrian at best ( 12 ppg on 43%FG - 36% 3FG )

Collins during that stretch?   ( 18.7 ppg and 7.5 rebs on 54% FG - 39% 3FG ) . . pretty damn good production in an expanded role.

Capela?  ( 16.6 ppg and 14.5 rebs on 61% FG ) . . excellent production out of him

Trae?  ( 27.2 ppg and 9.9 asst on 43% FG - 39% 3FG ) . . . outside of the 4.4 TOs during this time, he was damn good as well.

 

Bogi then comes back on March 2nd, and we know what kind of 2nd half of the season he had.  It was damn near historic from a shooting standpoint.   ( 18 ppg on 49% FG - 46% 3FG ).  The dude was brilliant.

How about Collins?  ( 17.1 ppg on 58%FG - 41% 3FG ) . . . brilliant production out of him.

Capela?  ( 15.5 ppg and 14.6 rebs on 60% FG ) . . . virtually unchanged

Trae?  ( 24.1 ppg and 9.4 asst on 44% FG - 32% 3FG ) . . he struggled with his deep ball but was solid everywhere else.  Pts and FGAs were down under Nate.

Huerter?  ( 11.9 ppg on 44% FG - 36% 3FG ) . . . virtually unchanged

Reddish was out all throughout this stretch and didn't return until the end of the Milwaukee series.

 

When Bogi is making a run of shots from 3, this team is very dangerous and borderline special.  When they don't have it, we're reliant on Trae to really put up a big number points wise to help us win games.

The three constants on the team the past 3 years have been Trae, Capela, and Collins. 

Trae is at Hall of Fame level, with improvements on his turnovers and defense being the last thing to take him to 1st team All-NBA level ( despite him already having those numbers offensively )

Capela's game will not expand, but his defense and rebounding will stay constant for at least the next 3 - 4 years.

Collins is the guy who can improve and expand both his offense and defense, but he has to really want to excel on both of those categories.

 

Or be given a legit chance by the coaching staff to expand his game.

[NBASupes]

4 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

My point is, we are focusing on the wrong things.

JC and his contract may be like the 5th or 6th item down the line of things we need to address. But you choose to make it Defcon 1 as if we are being held hostage by him.

It’s not his fault Kev can’t stay attached to his man off the ball. It’s not his fault Clint can’t make FT’s. It’s not his fault Dre keeps getting hurt everytime he starts to look like himself again.

But yes, before part 2 of “The Conundrum” comes out, lets make another JC thread because we don’t already have enough.

His contract is probably at the top of the list.

Ya'll really don't understand positional value. That's why you don't see the issue I am seeing. The Hawks do. Most of the league but you guys can't 

[NBASupes]

34 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

#3 was the most important.  We fired LP right before Bogi came back in that 2020 - 21 season.  And I think that was by design. 

Yes, it was time for a change, but LP was also playing with people out of the lineup.  It's not like we were anywhere close to full strength when LP and the Hawks was losing games in the 4th quarters of games, it sealed his fate.  But I also think that Schlenk couldn't chance LP turning things around once Bogi came back.  That's why he fired LP the day before Bogi's return.

Bogi was out starting in early-Jan. But it wasn't until when Hunter went out in late-Jan, that things really started to go south.  Combined, we were 10 - 15 in during the time that Bogi was out ( Jan 11h - Mar 1st )  And in that stretch where we didn't have either Bogi or Hunter, the Hawks were 4 - 11.

Reddish got all of the major wing minutes, but was stinking up the court during that stretch ( 10.5 ppg on 35% FG - 20% 3FG shooting ).

Huerter got his chances too, but was pedestrian at best ( 12 ppg on 43%FG - 36% 3FG )

Collins during that stretch?   ( 18.7 ppg and 7.5 rebs on 54% FG - 39% 3FG ) . . pretty damn good production in an expanded role.

Capela?  ( 16.6 ppg and 14.5 rebs on 61% FG ) . . excellent production out of him

Trae?  ( 27.2 ppg and 9.9 asst on 43% FG - 39% 3FG ) . . . outside of the 4.4 TOs during this time, he was damn good as well.

 

Bogi then comes back on March 2nd, and we know what kind of 2nd half of the season he had.  It was damn near historic from a shooting standpoint.   ( 18 ppg on 49% FG - 46% 3FG ).  The dude was brilliant.

How about Collins?  ( 17.1 ppg on 58%FG - 41% 3FG ) . . . brilliant production out of him.

Capela?  ( 15.5 ppg and 14.6 rebs on 60% FG ) . . . virtually unchanged

Trae?  ( 24.1 ppg and 9.4 asst on 44% FG - 32% 3FG ) . . he struggled with his deep ball but was solid everywhere else.  Pts and FGAs were down under Nate.

Huerter?  ( 11.9 ppg on 44% FG - 36% 3FG ) . . . virtually unchanged

Reddish was out all throughout this stretch and didn't return until the end of the Milwaukee series.

 

When Bogi is making a run of shots from 3, this team is very dangerous and borderline special.  When they don't have it, we're reliant on Trae to really put up a big number points wise to help us win games.

The three constants on the team the past 3 years have been Trae, Capela, and Collins. 

Trae is at Hall of Fame level, with improvements on his turnovers and defense being the last thing to take him to 1st team All-NBA level ( despite him already having those numbers offensively )

Capela's game will not expand, but his defense and rebounding will stay constant for at least the next 3 - 4 years.

Collins is the guy who can improve and expand both his offense and defense, but he has to really want to excel on both of those categories.

 

Or be given a legit chance by the coaching staff to expand his game.

I agree with your stats, not your personal assessment. It wasn't just Bogi, it was the 1/5 PnR was breaking the integrity of the defense, they had to bring guards over, this open up the floor for Bogi, Solo, Kevin, and Snell. I keep saying this, our offense that runs through our bigs is there to create open chances for our wings. That's what makes our offense so difficult to stop. 

The issue we have to Hunter is ball stopping, something we don't have with Kevin, Tony, Solo, or Bogi.

I don't see anyone as a constant who's started. 

All have had ups and downs. Trae last year but this year. He was sensational. 

You would he lying to yourself if you say JC had a better complete season this year compared to last. 

We all know Clint regressed but we also know we got less of a break with our injuries than both of the teams that played in the finals because of COVID. All of the teams who made it to the ECF and WCF was knocked out by injuries this year which speaks to the fact that none of us had enough of a summer for physical recovery. Obviously, that's gonna impact our players. 

I just feel like on here, I don't know what you guys see and how you see it. It's strange to me. The game is here and for you guys, the game is there. Just strange to me is all. 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

#3 was the most important.  We fired LP right before Bogi came back in that 2020 - 21 season.  And I think that was by design. 

Yes, it was time for a change, but LP was also playing with people out of the lineup.  It's not like we were anywhere close to full strength when LP and the Hawks was losing games in the 4th quarters of games, it sealed his fate.  But I also think that Schlenk couldn't chance LP turning things around once Bogi came back.  That's why he fired LP the day before Bogi's return.

Bogi was out starting in early-Jan. But it wasn't until when Hunter went out in late-Jan, that things really started to go south.  Combined, we were 10 - 15 in during the time that Bogi was out ( Jan 11h - Mar 1st )  And in that stretch where we didn't have either Bogi or Hunter, the Hawks were 4 - 11.

Reddish got all of the major wing minutes, but was stinking up the court during that stretch ( 10.5 ppg on 35% FG - 20% 3FG shooting ).

Huerter got his chances too, but was pedestrian at best ( 12 ppg on 43%FG - 36% 3FG )

Collins during that stretch?   ( 18.7 ppg and 7.5 rebs on 54% FG - 39% 3FG ) . . pretty damn good production in an expanded role.

Capela?  ( 16.6 ppg and 14.5 rebs on 61% FG ) . . excellent production out of him

Trae?  ( 27.2 ppg and 9.9 asst on 43% FG - 39% 3FG ) . . . outside of the 4.4 TOs during this time, he was damn good as well.

 

Bogi then comes back on March 2nd, and we know what kind of 2nd half of the season he had.  It was damn near historic from a shooting standpoint.   ( 18 ppg on 49% FG - 46% 3FG ).  The dude was brilliant.

How about Collins?  ( 17.1 ppg on 58%FG - 41% 3FG ) . . . brilliant production out of him.

Capela?  ( 15.5 ppg and 14.6 rebs on 60% FG ) . . . virtually unchanged

Trae?  ( 24.1 ppg and 9.4 asst on 44% FG - 32% 3FG ) . . he struggled with his deep ball but was solid everywhere else.  Pts and FGAs were down under Nate.

Huerter?  ( 11.9 ppg on 44% FG - 36% 3FG ) . . . virtually unchanged

Reddish was out all throughout this stretch and didn't return until the end of the Milwaukee series.

 

When Bogi is making a run of shots from 3, this team is very dangerous and borderline special.  When they don't have it, we're reliant on Trae to really put up a big number points wise to help us win games.

The three constants on the team the past 3 years have been Trae, Capela, and Collins. 

Trae is at Hall of Fame level, with improvements on his turnovers and defense being the last thing to take him to 1st team All-NBA level ( despite him already having those numbers offensively )

Capela's game will not expand, but his defense and rebounding will stay constant for at least the next 3 - 4 years.

Collins is the guy who can improve and expand both his offense and defense, but he has to really want to excel on both of those categories.

 

Or be given a legit chance by the coaching staff to expand his game.

Very accurate breakdown of how the season unfolded. 

[NBASupes]

12 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

 

I do. JC has been an elite PnR big man, and Trae was still putting up numbers before Capela got here. Capela was a massive upgrade over the other centers we had before him because of all the other attributes (defense, rebounding, great screen setting, etc.) he brings to the team. But his presence reducing JC's role within the offense is not an indictment on JC. He should get more praise for adjusting and playing a smaller role without complaining. Especially considering he wasn't paid yet, he still did what he had to for the betterment of the team.

 

 

 

These are the the PnR Roll man stats from all the Hawks bigs from 2019-2020 and this past season. It doesn't tell the full story because there are different play types, and the ball handler's reads are not all the same but I think this illustrates my point well enough. John would still be effective as our primary roll man, but he's not used like that to in order to accomodate Capela. Not because Capela is better roll man than him. JC now has to sit in the corner to make it work and he's done that admirably. The fact that his numbers are down is explainable. Now, the merits of replacing Capela with an better offensive center can be debated versus spending less on the PF position altogether. But I do think we're a better team if we swap Capela for Ayton and that's with me acknowldodging both Capela's and JC's value around the league.

 

Is it time to start annoiting Okongwu as a PnR monster. 

Okongwu got the best numbers on the squad. His per is 20. His TS is insane. His defensive metrics are the best on the team. His numbers against great players are the best in the NBA at the 4 and 5. Okongwu is the best PF on this roster.