Hawks offensive problems... or is it a problem?

[JayBirdHawk]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

The shooting will get better.   I think we have a chicken little moment because we don't have Gallo and Huerter ....  Some of the fanbase has yet to understand that Trae has to learn how to shoot while not being the primary ball handler and some of our others have to get in sync with the ball handlers so that they can get the ball in their spots. 

KVon went 1 for 8 the other night ... if that helps. 

 

Interesting article on Trae shooting in the early going:

Quote

Please do not read too much into Trae Young's wonky shooting splits to start the season. On the heels of Dejounte Murray's arrival, he is attempting a role adaptation not yet undertaken by usage contemporaries such as Luka Dončić and James Harden. Young's average time of possession has dipped from last year, and the frequency with which he's attempting catch-and-fire threes has more than doubled.

This search for offensive diversification does nothing to diminish what's already known: that Young is one of the most lethal self-starters in existence.

The Atlanta Hawks offense has so routinely (and generally) imploded without him on the court because he props up everything. Defenses are on tilt before he crosses the timeline, because they have to be. His range boils down to: "If he has the ball, then he's within scoring distance."

Young might lean too heavily on boundless touch for stretches at a time, but it is not his crutch. He leverages limitless range and an unconditional green light into live-dribble anarchy. His floater is both sudden and, despite his standing 6'1", difficult to block. The attention he draws is the vehicle through which he tees up bunnies at the rim and in the corners. 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10053423-ranking-the-nbas-top-25-players-under-25-right-now

 

[JayBirdHawk]

The bench is really struggling!

- Starters have the best Efficiency, and more important the best Efficiency Difference of the league: +31.8
(ahead of PHX at +25.3, WAS at +14.8, MIN at +14.6 and PHI at +12.6)

- Bench has the 28th Efficiency Difference at -22.5
(only ahead of PHI at -22.6 and DET at -26.2)

[nathan2331]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

The bench is really struggling!

- Starters have the best Efficiency, and more important the best Efficiency Difference of the league: +31.8
(ahead of PHX at +25.3, WAS at +14.8, MIN at +14.6 and PHI at +12.6)

- Bench has the 28th Efficiency Difference at -22.5
(only ahead of PHI at -22.6 and DET at -26.2)

Yikes, that's really concerning considering we don't really seem to be in much of a position to actually upgrade the personnel this season outside of Bogi's return. Given the rebounding issues, I wish Coach would consider playing a bigger lineup and play OO and JJ next to Kaminsky. Kaminsky can at least shoot and playing JJ at the 3 should put him on the ball more frequently which could get him into the flow of the game. I know they see JJ as a big, but we should be experimenting more trying to find some kind of bench combination that will thrive together.

[shakes]

8 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

The bench is really struggling!

- Starters have the best Efficiency, and more important the best Efficiency Difference of the league: +31.8
(ahead of PHX at +25.3, WAS at +14.8, MIN at +14.6 and PHI at +12.6)

- Bench has the 28th Efficiency Difference at -22.5
(only ahead of PHI at -22.6 and DET at -26.2)

no surprise here when your bench unit consists of two non rotation vets, a second year player who is essentially a rookie and looks like it and then a center who so far has been vastly outplayed by most of the 2nd string centers he has matched up with.

[Diesel]

23 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

Yikes, that's really concerning considering we don't really seem to be in much of a position to actually upgrade the personnel this season outside of Bogi's return. Given the rebounding issues, I wish Coach would consider playing a bigger lineup and play OO and JJ next to Kaminsky. Kaminsky can at least shoot and playing JJ at the 3 should put him on the ball more frequently which could get him into the flow of the game. I know they see JJ as a big, but we should be experimenting more trying to find some kind of bench combination that will thrive together.

it might not require much upgrade... maybe just more time... This is the 4th game and these guys have never played together.  So this is the 4th game playing together.   Give them some time. 

 

 

[nathan2331]

13 minutes ago, Diesel said:

it might not require much upgrade... maybe just more time... This is the 4th game and these guys have never played together.  So this is the 4th game playing together.   Give them some time. 

 

 

I'm not jumping to conclusions about the total effectiveness of this unit, but I do think it's flawed in some ways that won't be fixed without personnel changes. For instance, matchups against size are going to be an ongoing problem with OO at center. That doesn't mean I think he's useless, but it's the kind of problem that will keep showing itself without a viable 3rd center on the roster. Maybe Kaminsky shuts me up and proves himself to be valuable but I'm not holding my breath.

[Diesel]

53 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

I'm not jumping to conclusions about the total effectiveness of this unit, but I do think it's flawed in some ways that won't be fixed without personnel changes. For instance, matchups against size are going to be an ongoing problem with OO at center. That doesn't mean I think he's useless, but it's the kind of problem that will keep showing itself without a viable 3rd center on the roster. Maybe Kaminsky shuts me up and proves himself to be valuable but I'm not holding my breath.

Yeah... OO will struggle against Bigger players.   But name one player in this league that doesn't struggle against a certain type of player?  The teams learn to make adjustments in those cases.   OO may struggle against big bigs.. but there are only a handful of those.  IF he learns from CLint, he'll learn how to hold his own. 

 

[nathan2331]

46 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Yeah... OO will struggle against Bigger players.   But name one player in this league that doesn't struggle against a certain type of player?  The teams learn to make adjustments in those cases.   OO may struggle against big bigs.. but there are only a handful of those.  IF he learns from CLint, he'll learn how to hold his own. 

 

My point though is that if we have a viable 3rd center (I don't think that's Kaminsky), OO weaknesses become less exploitable. There's probably a big that could be signed for cheap or acquired via trade but I doubt we make a significant move because of tax implications, that's the real concern for me. OO is not the only problem I've seen. I'm not looking for perfection, just areas of improvement. I still think we have the best team in the NBA, but to actually reach that level there are issues we have to find a way to mitigate. If the current roster isn't enough, I feel we've put a limit on ourselves because of financial reasons. We'll see how things shake out.

[JayBirdHawk]

3 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

My point though is that if we have a viable 3rd center (I don't think that's Kaminsky), OO weaknesses become less exploitable. There's probably a big that could be signed for cheap or acquired via trade but I doubt we make a significant move because of tax implications, that's the real concern for me. OO is not the only problem I've seen. I'm not looking for perfection, just areas of improvement. I still think we have the best team in the NBA, but to actually reach that level there are issues we have to find a way to mitigate. If the current roster isn't enough, I feel we've put a limit on ourselves because of financial reasons. We'll see how things shake out.

Hawks have $1.7 million under the Luxury Tax.  Here is the minimum salary based on NBA experience:

Years of Experience	Salary
0	$1,017,781
1	$1,637,966
2	$1,836,090
3	$1,902,133
4	$1,968,175
5	$2,133,278
6	$2,298,385
7	$2,463,490
8	$2,628,597
9	$2,641,682
10+	$2,905,851

 

 

[nathan2331]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Hawks have $1.7 million under the Luxury Tax.  Here is the minimum salary based on NBA experience:

Years of Experience	Salary
0	$1,017,781
1	$1,637,966
2	$1,836,090
3	$1,902,133
4	$1,968,175
5	$2,133,278
6	$2,298,385
7	$2,463,490
8	$2,628,597
9	$2,641,682
10+	$2,905,851

 

 

Now someone like Krejci could be canned to free up extra money right?

[JayBirdHawk]

13 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

Now someone like Krejci could be canned to free up extra money right?

$781,759.00.  So we'll have $2.4 mil under the Tax

[nathan2331]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

$781,759.00.  So we'll have $2.4 mil under the Tax

So possibly a >7 year vet with one move... Our situation is better than I thought it was. Thanks for the information.

[sturt]

16 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

So possibly a >7 year vet with one move... Our situation is better than I thought it was. Thanks for the information.

Actually nathan, it's even better than that if we were to cut Krejci... this from Hoops Rumors' page on minimum salaries...

... so, we can sign anyone, as long as they're willing to accept a 1 yr min vet contract.

 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

My point though is that if we have a viable 3rd center (I don't think that's Kaminsky), OO weaknesses become less exploitable. There's probably a big that could be signed for cheap or acquired via trade but I doubt we make a significant move because of tax implications, that's the real concern for me. OO is not the only problem I've seen. I'm not looking for perfection, just areas of improvement. I still think we have the best team in the NBA, but to actually reach that level there are issues we have to find a way to mitigate. If the current roster isn't enough, I feel we've put a limit on ourselves because of financial reasons. We'll see how things shake out.

I was looking at Clint on the tube yesterday.   He's the same height as Hunter.   My point is that He plays very good defense and can shut it down.  Maybe Nate is hoping that OO learns to do the same.  As the season progresses, I want to see some progress from OO. Let's not give up on him all the sudden unless you're willing to entertain trade talks.   What good is a player that can be forced out of the game by matchup?

 

[JTB]

I need to rant aka state my piece and complain about the offense so here we go….

Fingers are instantly always pointed at Trae and maybe soon Murray when the offense sucks. Usually it’s followed up with complaints about how Trae don’t move off ball and ball watches…which is all true even though I think it’s more so by design from LPs offense system that Nate is still using whether people want to believe that part or not ….but at the end of the day it’s true that Trae don’t move off ball .

However on the flip side when Trae has the ball in his hands and we are having a average night or great night offensively he’s no doubt a generational offensive talent that demands respect from his opponents so why would you take the ball out of his hands ever ???

 We are in year 3 of playoff expectations and more but we aren’t accepting what the truths are. We need to let Trae be Trae and instead of trying to force Trae in more off ball movement McMillan should be forcing the roles players in more off ball movement!

Has that part ever stuck out to anyone when discussing ball and player movement with this roster???!!!

Even if Trae did move off ball more I truly don’t believe our role players have the quick thinking, on the spot play recognition, or passing ability to be a primary ball handler even in short instances within a play or system that calls for frequent ball and player movement !!!

Just go down the list ….Hunter loses the ball after every 3rd dribble when closely guarded. JCs handle is way too wide and he’s in year 5 or 6 still trying to be a this generation PF offensively. Capela can’t pass well at all  and way too often never kicks it back out after a offensive board to reset the offense.

 

Point is in order for Trae or Murray to play off ball more their teammates would have to step up and they don’t have those skills that’s needed to play in a ball and player moving system. INSTEAD the offensive focus should be more player movement around Trae off the pick. McMillan should be forcing Collins, Hunter, and Murray to run off ball a ton more.

 

 

[macdaddy]

11 hours ago, JTB said:

I need to rant aka state my piece and complain about the offense so here we go….

Fingers are instantly always pointed at Trae and maybe soon Murray when the offense sucks. Usually it’s followed up with complaints about how Trae don’t move off ball and ball watches…which is all true even though I think it’s more so by design from LPs offense system that Nate is still using whether people want to believe that part or not ….but at the end of the day it’s true that Trae don’t move off ball .

However on the flip side when Trae has the ball in his hands and we are having a average night or great night offensively he’s no doubt a generational offensive talent that demands respect from his opponents so why would you take the ball out of his hands ever ???

 We are in year 3 of playoff expectations and more but we aren’t accepting what the truths are. We need to let Trae be Trae and instead of trying to force Trae in more off ball movement McMillan should be forcing the roles players in more off ball movement!

Has that part ever stuck out to anyone when discussing ball and player movement with this roster???!!!

Even if Trae did move off ball more I truly don’t believe our role players have the quick thinking, on the spot play recognition, or passing ability to be a primary ball handler even in short instances within a play or system that calls for frequent ball and player movement !!!

Just go down the list ….Hunter loses the ball after every 3rd dribble when closely guarded. JCs handle is way too wide and he’s in year 5 or 6 still trying to be a this generation PF offensively. Capela can’t pass well at all  and way too often never kicks it back out after a offensive board to reset the offense.

 

Point is in order for Trae or Murray to play off ball more their teammates would have to step up and they don’t have those skills that’s needed to play in a ball and player moving system. INSTEAD the offensive focus should be more player movement around Trae off the pick. McMillan should be forcing Collins, Hunter, and Murray to run off ball a ton more.

 

 

I agree.  One small piece of hope here is that JJ has the passing ability, vision and size.  If he can develop the rest of his game his chemistry with our PGs might be a great thing.  

[Gray Mule]

When do the Hawks have an offensive problem?  Easy.  When their shots are not falling.  Hawk players run hot and cold, as do most NBA players.

Why the difference, game to game?  I know not.  If I did, someone from Atlanta would come and ask me to explain things!  No one seems to know why.  We're all human and not robots.  A machine does the same thing, over and over, exactly the same way every time.  We do not.

Confidence is a main ingredient.  Then, momentum.  When you have these two things working in your favor you will have a great game.

Here's hoping these Hawks have both going for them tonight in NY!

 

[Final_quest]

14 hours ago, JTB said:

Just go down the list ….Hunter loses the ball after every 3rd dribble when closely guarded. JCs handle is way too wide and he’s in year 5 or 6 still trying to be a this generation PF offensively. Capela can’t pass well at all  and way too often never kicks it back out after a offensive board to reset the offense.

It's like no one is allowed to dribble unless you are Trae or DJM.  

[Gray Mule]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

It's like no one is allowed to dribble unless you are Trae or DJM.  

Not really.  Watch Aaron and JJ.  But, remember, both of these are of the "not starter" Hawks!!

On the other hand, of the starting five, Trae or DJM are it.

[Packfill]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

It's like no one is allowed to dribble unless you are Trae or DJM.  

Definitely seems like everyone beyond Trae and DJM are in passenger mode right now.

 

I thought the whole point of getting DJM was to (i) allow the team to have more movement on offense - facilitated by having multiple ball handlers on the court and (ii) allow the offense to function when Trae was off the floor.