Do you like posts that are considered hot takes when in reality they are or could be true?

[Spud2nique]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

You literally used to bring up Wright all the time back in the days. Why are you acting shocked.

As a bust.

[Spud2nique]

27 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Not everyone has it. 

I’m workin on it. But I can guarantee you Supes lying about me liking Wright. I even remember him working out for the Hawks and I’m like HELL NO, not at 3, not even at 11, I actually wanted Law I thought he might be really good like the next Rod Strickland, nope. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

1) You invited the disagreement. Most posters posted facts....stats...league opinion...fan opinion...membership on lists...membership in groups, etc.  Citing Nique is in the hall is a fact. Citing Nique's career ppg is significantly higher than Al's is a fact. Citing Nique's number of all star games is a fact. None of those are attacks....period.  Calling someone stupid or saying they don't understand enough to state a fact....is an attack.  For the love of all that is holy....calling people dumb is an attack.  Correcting opinion with facts is not an attack.

2.  I'll say this once. I understand the game. I've been around it my whole life. Most of these people on this site have played high school ball, been a fan since they were tiny. They know enough to cite stats and know what they mean.

3. I'm sorry you didn't understand it. It made sense to me and a number of others would agree. Let me try an example. My wife says, "did you take out the trash?" She already knows my kid did it when I asked and I didn't do it. She has that knowledge in her pocket. But asking me so I can say "ya" meaning, I made sure it got done, is her way of being able to start a fight about me being lazy and not listening to her. It's a loaded question. If you start a debate with your mind made up and unwilling to hear me say, "I meant to say I made the kid do it", you'll never accept that as acceptable.  Starting something ready to fight is a bad way to enter into anything.  Especially if its controversial.  See this past week. I stated that if he gets 30 minutes a game, JJ will lead the team in blocks.  People jumped all over it. I knew it was controversial. I didn't take it as an attack. I said my peace, let them say theirs and now I'm just waiting for the season to begin to see how it plays out.  This is the mature approach. I never questioned AHF's need for blue pills or told Spud to shave his legs.  I said my peace, didn't hold any gotchas and let others say theirs. I didn't have to win it because it can't be won until they play a few games (like 82).

4. Disagreement with you does not mean people don't see the game clearly.  Way back in the 80's, people saw the triangle offense as a gimmick.  People were laughed at for suggesting it.  Jackson won 6 rings with it (almost 8 ) and all of a sudden it was the best offense ever.  Just because its your opinion, doesn't make it right. I respect you sticking to your guns, but open mind = happy life.

5. To the uninitiated, I hold 15 industry certs in IT and Cyber and a Master's in IS management with a focus in Information Security. This is what he's alluding to. However, I'd like to point out the majority of my work in this field is with statistical measurement and metrics.

6.  Willing to see this in action.

7. "I just don't believe".....see that's an opinion. You can say that....that's fine.  Everyone has a right to an opinion but, not every opinion is right. Having an opinion, does not make it fact. Back up those facts with some metrics, league surveys, coaches opinions, etc. Then you have an actual argument.

1. Re-read #1 from me again. You are still not getting it at all. 

2. Not anywhere near as well as you believe you do. I don't see anything from you that screams I have high BBIQ and I understand this game at an high level. Nothing. You aren't dumb. You are obviously smart. But I haven't seen you say something Basketball wise that made me like DAMN! Good or bad. You aren't going deep is what I am saying. You need to meet me deep sea level. 

I even provided you a post showing you how you debate but of course, you replied back to the believe that you think people were dropping facts when all they were doing was providing data that doesn't answer the question at hand. I think only bird dirt out of all of ya'll tried to actually make an educated opinion even if I disagreed with him. 

3. I get your analogy. Just don't see it in relation to this post. There is really nothing controversial about saying Al is the Goat Hawks. He's the most winningest Atlanta Hawk. He's had the most career success of any of our franchise players. The reason why it could be considered even a hot take is due to the obvious. Do you believe a non top-end scoring option, can be the best player in franchise history for that city. That's the argument. 

I believe he is. Why? For all the reasons I previously stated. His impact on winning and possession by possession basketball is better than anyone else. The only two 1st options in Atlanta Hawk history that played their prime in Atlanta was Trae and Nique. Only Nique was a true #1 but he was more like Melo. Trae is an offensive juggernaut but he's severely flawed offensively.

Not to mention both are terrible defensive players. For me, they just aren't good enough. Put it this way, if Billups played his prime in Denver with Melo, I would have said Billups is Denver goat till Jokic arrived. Why? Because while i do value what Billups means to both sides of the court for possession by possession basketball and his impact on winning than Melo did. 

4. Gimmicky doesn't equal you don't understand the game. There is beauty is spam when done by the right personnel. 

I have an open mind which is why I am so passionate and strong about these takes, regardless if this isn't among the popular opinions. I generally would never compare Trae, Nique, and Al to each other. They don't have the same roles. Not even close. All 3 of them. That said, when you ask me who's the Hawk goat, I am obligated to tell the truth. 

5. Correct. 

6. It's always been in action. 

7. You like getting stuck on wording and not the details. Just focus on the details and go from there. This is not an exam, I am not trying to stump you. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by NBASupes

[thecampster]

48 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

1. Re-read #1 from me again. You are still not getting it at all. 

2. Not anywhere near as well as you believe you do. I don't see anything from you that screams I have high BBIQ and I understand this game at an high level. Nothing. You aren't dumb. You are obviously smart. But I haven't seen you say something Basketball wise that made me like DAMN! Good or bad. You aren't going deep is what I am saying. You need to meet me deep sea level. 

I even provided you a post showing you how you debate but of course, you replied back to the believe that you think people were dropping facts when all they were doing was providing data that doesn't answer the question at hand. I think only bird dirt out of all of ya'll tried to actually make an educated opinion even if I disagreed with him. 

3. I get your analogy. Just don't see it in relation to this post. There is really nothing controversial about saying Al is the Goat Hawks. He's the most winningest Atlanta Hawk. He's had the most career success of any of our franchise players. The reason why it could be considered even a hot take is due to the obvious. Do you believe a non top-end scoring option, can be the best player in franchise history for that city. That's the argument. 

I believe he is. Why? For all the reasons I previously stated. His impact on winning and possession by possession basketball is better than anyone else. The only two 1st options in Atlanta Hawk history that played their prime in Atlanta was Trae and Nique. Only Nique was a true #1 but he was more like Melo. Trae is an offensive juggernaut but he's severely flawed offensively.

Not to mention both are terrible defensive players. For me, they just aren't good enough. Put it this way, if Billups played his prime in Denver with Melo, I would have said Billups is Denver goat till Jokic arrived. Why? Because while i do value what Billups means to both sides of the court for possession by possession basketball and his impact on winning than Melo did. 

4. Gimmicky doesn't equal you don't understand the game. There is beauty is spam when done by the right personnel. 

I have an open mind which is why I am so passionate and strong about these takes, regardless if this isn't among the popular opinions. I generally would never compare Trae, Nique, and Al to each other. They don't have the same roles. Not even close. All 3 of them. That said, when you ask me who's the Hawk goat, I am obligated to tell the truth. 

5. Correct. 

6. It's always been in action. 

7. You like getting stuck on wording and not the details. Just focus on the details and go from there. This is not an exam, I am not trying to stump you. 

Further discussion on this just isn't in my bag of things I'm willing to shave years of my life over.  But I'm going to do some highlighting here and try to just answer the questions.

2. Are you saying data isn't facts?  and on point, you've on many occasions complimented me getting things right. For example, the breakdown of Cam's shooting mechanics. So this "I don't see basketball on your level thing" is an unprovable passive aggressive shot that holds zero weight in any debate. This is exactly the nonsense ad hominem attack people are talking about.  Data is facts. Its one part of the story and typically a very big part of it.

3. " There is really nothing controversial about saying Al is the Goat Hawks. He's the most winningest Atlanta Hawk. He's had the most career success of any of our franchise players."

What do you base that on?  Let me try this stat.  Al played 9 seasons with the Hawks and had a VORP rating of 21.2.  Nique played 12 seasons as a Hawk with a VORP rating of 47.2.  How do you reconcile less than 1/2 the VORP rating?  Nique played in an era where you had to go through Jordan's Bulls, IT's Pistons and the Bird/Parrish/McHale Celtics to get to the ECF.  Horford had to go through Lebron in an era of the weak East. 

 

Your argument though ignores some other pretty darn good Hawks. Pete Maravich played 4 seasons with the Hawks average 24/4/5. Trae Young is a career 25/9 in 5 seasons with the Hawks and came referee interference away from leading them to the NBA Finals.

In Horford's 9 years with the Hawks, he only led them in win shares 4 times. The Hawks record while he was on the team was 411-311.  Basically, they were a 46/36 team average while he was on the team. They broke 50 wins twice in 9 seasons.  In the 9 year span between 1984 and 1993, Wilkins led his team in win shares 7 times. The team finishes 448-372, a slightly lower winning percentage (basically 45-37 team).  The team broke 50 wins 4 times in that span.  They played on similarly successful teams with Wilkins going to more all-star games, scoring at a much higher volume while dealing with constant double teams and dealing with some of the best basketball teams arguably in the history of the game.

See, all of the above is statistical fact to back up my assertion. None of it is "you just don't understand....you don't have my BBIQ".

I'm so done with this. When is training camp again?

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by thecampster

[Spud2nique]

AHF when he opens this thread tomorrow and has to deal with foos.

[cam1218]

I’m not into going as far in depth to analyzing the game like some of y’all, so there is some good stuff in here. But man, this has to be one of the weirdest threads ever lol. 

[akay]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

told Spud to shave his legs

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Further discussion on this just isn't in my bag of things I'm willing to shave years of my life over.  But I'm going to do some highlighting here and try to just answer the questions.

2. Are you saying data isn't facts?  and on point, you've on many occasions complimented me getting things right. For example, the breakdown of Cam's shooting mechanics. So this "I don't see basketball on your level thing" is an unprovable passive aggressive shot that holds zero weight in any debate. This is exactly the nonsense ad hominem attack people are talking about.  Data is facts. Its one part of the story and typically a very big part of it.

3. " There is really nothing controversial about saying Al is the Goat Hawks. He's the most winningest Atlanta Hawk. He's had the most career success of any of our franchise players."

What do you base that on?  Let me try this stat.  Al played 9 seasons with the Hawks and had a VORP rating of 21.2.  Nique played 12 seasons as a Hawk with a VORP rating of 47.2.  How do you reconcile less than 1/2 the VORP rating?  Nique played in an era where you had to go through Jordan's Bulls, IT's Pistons and the Bird/Parrish/McHale Celtics to get to the ECF.  Horford had to go through Lebron in an era of the weak East. 

 

Your argument though ignores some other pretty darn good Hawks. Pete Maravich played 4 seasons with the Hawks average 24/4/5. Trae Young is a career 25/9 in 5 seasons with the Hawks and came referee interference away from leading them to the NBA Finals.

In Horford's 9 years with the Hawks, he only led them in win shares 4 times. The Hawks record while he was on the team was 411-311.  Basically, they were a 46/36 team average while he was on the team. They broke 50 wins twice in 9 seasons.  In the 9 year span between 1984 and 1993, Horford led his team in win shares 7 times. The team finishes 448-372, a slightly lower winning percentage (basically 45-37 team).  The team broke 50 wins 4 times in that span.  They played on similarly successful teams with Wilkins going to more all-star games, scoring at a much higher volume while dealing with constant double teams and dealing with some of the best basketball teams arguably in the history of the game.

See, all of the above is statistical fact to back up my assertion. None of it is "you just don't understand....you don't have my BBIQ".

I'm so done with this. When is training camp again?

 

1. ...

2. Depends on what you are talking about. If you are saying this guy average this and that. That's a fact. If you are saying this guy is better than this guy in a blanket manner, you are just talking with no understanding and context. To an old schoolers, that's what they do. To a new schooler, they will question you. A high BBIQ guy like myself will simply dismiss you and find you to lack credibility. 

3. Bolded is a fact. He is literally our most winningest player. He has the most success. Multiple 2nd round appearances. A ECF appearance and first in Atlanta franchise history. Most winningest season as well. Those are facts. 

Once again, you run to data points on a topic that should be clear with just the facts of the player. Do you even understand what VORP is? Let me help you:

VORP is an aggregation of stats where the inputs are minute-adjusted BPM scores. This makes VORP the most predictive model for *box scores*, but box scores are not a perfect representation of individual player input. RPM/RAPM is adjusted at the possession level rather than the minute level which more accurately reflects this performance.

The fact is:

All advanced stats are entirely situational and depend on who your teammates are, who's on the floor with you, who your opponents are, etc.

Using VORP is meaningless. Especially since the role of Nique and Al are not the same. We ask a lot more out of Al than we ask out of Nique. Hell, we ask a lot more out of Trae than we asked out of Nique. If you don't understand this game, you will just say a lot of bullshit to a smarter person like myself. 

Then you are doing the fantasize theory again with the Jordan's Bulls and bullshit like that which is common from low BBIQ basketball fans. 

Pete never played here in his prime. We traded him to NO where he reached his prime. His raw stats looked good but the film shows exactly why Atlanta moved him plus toxic teammate while here in Atlanta. Chennedy Carter pt 1.

 

Quote

The Hawks record while he was on the team was 411-311.  Basically, they were a 46/36 team average while he was on the team. They broke 50 wins twice in 9 seasons.  In the 9 year span between 1984 and 1993, Horford led his team in win shares 7 times. The team finishes 448-372, a slightly lower winning percentage (basically 45-37 team).  The team broke 50 wins 4 times in that span.  They played on similarly successful teams with Wilkins going to more all-star games, scoring at a much higher volume while dealing with constant double teams and dealing with some of the best basketball teams arguably in the history of the game.

I removed the WS part because it was misused as all of your points so far. 

411-311 is really good but it's not accurate when speaking about Al. Al only played 578 games with the Hawks. I remember creating a thread with the exact win/loss record and no one was close that been a franchise player for us. 

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Al-Horford/NBA/35/Career/By_Season/Per_Game/Regular_Season

46-36 is a legit playoff team aka a pretender. That's correct. That's pretty much what we were in this time period. 

Which were the two seasons we had our best teams. The Highlight factory squad where Mike Bibby was at the end of his peak. The Al led 60 win Hawks. That team was build with him being used like 2013 Tim Duncan but with more range. That actually forever changed the NBA forever for NBA bigs. Al Horford is the reason for the modern NBA we have today. Thank him. We ask them to switch, playmake, move on and off the ball, shoot with range, protect the rim and the paint. Al doesn't get enough credit for his imprint on this game mainly due where he played. He ran a lot of bigs out of the NBA after his damn prime. 

A lot of fantasize bro on the Wilkins front. Not a lot of truth. Even the record is wrong. You doing the irrelevant hustle again, all star games, dunk contest, etc. The emotional reasons. There is nothing wrong with that but it's terrible to use in a conversation like this but since we are doing it, here's my emotional irrelevant hustle article. 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2464453-underappreciated-al-horford-is-the-perfect-star-for-overlooked-atlanta-hawks

 

If you want to directly see raw stats for both:

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Al-Horford/Comparison/35/Dominique-Wilkins/1360

Career:

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Dominique-Wilkins/NBA/1360/Career/By_Season/Per_Game/Regular_Season

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Trae-Young/NBA/88934/Career/By_Season/Per_Game/Regular_Season

Winning percentages:

Wilkins - 56.4

Horford- 58.8

Trae - 45.6

 

[Spud2nique]

31 minutes ago, akay said:

Wtf why that dude callin me out I don’t read camp posts and he didn’t @ me… non confrontational maaa..

[thecampster]

25 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Wtf why that dude callin me out I don’t read camp posts and he didn’t @ me… non confrontational maaa..

Show me on the doll where I hurt you!

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

Show me on the doll where I hurt you!

Right where big red likes to grabbem! 

Ps Barbie is out tonight and I’m free!!!

Special lady out! Got the to myself!

[thecampster]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

1. ...

2. Depends on what you are talking about. If you are saying this guy average this and that. That's a fact. If you are saying this guy is better than this guy in a blanket manner, you are just talking with no understanding and context. To an old schoolers, that's what they do. To a new schooler, they will question you. A high BBIQ guy like myself will simply dismiss you and find you to lack credibility. 

3. Bolded is a fact. He is literally our most winningest player. He has the most success. Multiple 2nd round appearances. A ECF appearance and first in Atlanta franchise history. Most winningest season as well. Those are facts. 

Once again, you run to data points on a topic that should be clear with just the facts of the player. Do you even understand what VORP is? Let me help you:

VORP is an aggregation of stats where the inputs are minute-adjusted BPM scores. This makes VORP the most predictive model for *box scores*, but box scores are not a perfect representation of individual player input. RPM/RAPM is adjusted at the possession level rather than the minute level which more accurately reflects this performance.

The fact is:

All advanced stats are entirely situational and depend on who your teammates are, who's on the floor with you, who your opponents are, etc.

Using VORP is meaningless. Especially since the role of Nique and Al are not the same. We ask a lot more out of Al than we ask out of Nique. Hell, we ask a lot more out of Trae than we asked out of Nique. If you don't understand this game, you will just say a lot of bullshit to a smarter person like myself. 

Then you are doing the fantasize theory again with the Jordan's Bulls and bullshit like that which is common from low BBIQ basketball fans. 

Pete never played here in his prime. We traded him to NO where he reached his prime. His raw stats looked good but the film shows exactly why Atlanta moved him plus toxic teammate while here in Atlanta. Chennedy Carter pt 1.

 

I removed the WS part because it was misused as all of your points so far. 

411-311 is really good but it's not accurate when speaking about Al. Al only played 578 games with the Hawks. I remember creating a thread with the exact win/loss record and no one was close that been a franchise player for us. 

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Al-Horford/NBA/35/Career/By_Season/Per_Game/Regular_Season

46-36 is a legit playoff team aka a pretender. That's correct. That's pretty much what we were in this time period. 

Which were the two seasons we had our best teams. The Highlight factory squad where Mike Bibby was at the end of his peak. The Al led 60 win Hawks. That team was build with him being used like 2013 Tim Duncan but with more range. That actually forever changed the NBA forever for NBA bigs. Al Horford is the reason for the modern NBA we have today. Thank him. We ask them to switch, playmake, move on and off the ball, shoot with range, protect the rim and the paint. Al doesn't get enough credit for his imprint on this game mainly due where he played. He ran a lot of bigs out of the NBA after his damn prime. 

A lot of fantasize bro on the Wilkins front. Not a lot of truth. Even the record is wrong. You doing the irrelevant hustle again, all star games, dunk contest, etc. The emotional reasons. There is nothing wrong with that but it's terrible to use in a conversation like this but since we are doing it, here's my emotional irrelevant hustle article. 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2464453-underappreciated-al-horford-is-the-perfect-star-for-overlooked-atlanta-hawks

 

If you want to directly see raw stats for both:

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Al-Horford/Comparison/35/Dominique-Wilkins/1360

Career:

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Dominique-Wilkins/NBA/1360/Career/By_Season/Per_Game/Regular_Season

https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Trae-Young/NBA/88934/Career/By_Season/Per_Game/Regular_Season

Winning percentages:

Wilkins - 56.4

Horford- 58.8

Trae - 45.6

 

You do realize in that 2014-15 season AL 'led' us in, he was 3rd in scoring and 2nd in rebounding?

Also that he missed over 120 games the previous 3 seasons.

The 'best' Hawk of all time missed a ton of time but took a 4% higher salary to ring chase. I think in this narrative loyalty needs to count for something.

[Spud2nique]

 

[Spud2nique]

Can somebody give me a broom I’m trying to clean up before AHF sees this. He doesn’t need this.

[NBASupes]

43 minutes ago, thecampster said:

You do realize in that 2014-15 season AL 'led' us in, he was 3rd in scoring and 2nd in rebounding?

Also that he missed over 120 games the previous 3 seasons.

The 'best' Hawk of all time missed a ton of time but took a 4% higher salary to ring chase. I think in this narrative loyalty needs to count for something.

Yep, 100% aware of that. 

Yep, the pec injury. 

We should have gave him the max like we foolishly did for Trae. We value money, we don't value winning. That's obvious. Trae makes us a lot of money. Best attendance ever. With Al, our best attendance was 90% (60 win) other than that, in the 70s and 80s. Atlanta didn't love Al. That must is obvious. An entertainment town loves its entertainers and who better than the human Highlight Film or Ice Trae the Game. Stupidity on our part to an extreme degree. 

[thecampster]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Yep, 100% aware of that. 

Yep, the pec injury. 

We should have gave him the max like we foolishly did for Trae. We value money, we don't value winning. That's obvious. Trae makes us a lot of money. Best attendance ever. With Al, our best attendance was 90% (60 win) other than that, in the 70s and 80s. Atlanta didn't love Al. That must is obvious. An entertainment town loves its entertainers and who better than the human Highlight Film or Ice Trae the Game. Stupidity on our part to an extreme degree. 

Let's talk about that last year Al was here.  We went 48 and 34 with Horford that year.

In the offseason, not too much changed. We sent out Jeff Teague and turned the offense over to Dennis Schröder (weakening the backup point position) and swapped in an aging Dwight Howard for Al Horford. We also added Taurean Prince on as a rookie, giving him real minutes.  We acquired Ersan Illysova at the trade deadline.  The Hawks finished 43-39 that year, dropping 5 games.

If they lost both Teague and Horford (at the top of his game) replacing them with Jose Calderon and an aging Dwight. How do you reconcile them only going backward 5 games and still being over .500. Its well understood that at this point in his career, Dwight was fighting back injuries and mobility issues. I'm trying to see the logic gap.

Edited July 24, 2023 by thecampster

[NBASupes]

We had one of the best benches in the NBA lead by Tim Hardaway Jr. Our starting lineup was ass. They were literally at the bottom that season. Tim got his value back up and got PAID that offseason. Hawks realize this team is mid and it was finally time to rebuild. 

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=MIN*G*400&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=NET_RATING

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=MIN*G*200&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=1610612737&dir=A&slug=advanced&sort=NET_RATING

Edited July 24, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

That Hawk team was bad and overachieved expected a 39 wins whereas that previous team was expected to win 51 games. Games like Tim's February 2nd game against the Rockets are the reason for that. 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by NBASupes

[marco102]

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think we've come from the brink of lockdown.  I'm lowering the threat level.