Do you like posts that are considered hot takes when in reality they are or could be true?

[JTB]

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

My opinion that Al Horford was a top 10 player in his prime and that he's the greatest Atlanta Hawk

@Sothron belief that Mark Price is better than Steve Nash and one of the greatest PGs of all time and didn't have to spam like many after him.

I generally like it and encourage it. I want to hear your reasoning and how you see the game.

 

Off the rip, I wanted to disagree with @Sothron but when i watched the film and really broke down his game, if used correctly, Price could have been a MVP candidate and every bit as special as Nash and possibly better. 

It's all about how you see the game. I see it by impact and possession by possession. Some love stats. Some love their eye test. Some love offense. Some love defense. Some love want appeals to their eyes and uses stats that benefit that player to hype them up, ie MJ stans. 

For me it’s a combination of all those things but what I look for in particular is killer instinct, controlling the game, confidence of a star player and overall impact vs their opponents….those are things that set superstars apart from all stars in my opinion.

Very few players in my opinion has all these traits and the ones that do usually have won multiple titles.
 

I actually believe that Curry is the best point guard of all time strictly based on his impact vs his opponents. Many will say curry isn’t a point guard but hey that’s the position he guards and to me “you are what you can guard”….anyways yes I think curry is the best point guard to ever play in the nba. He has surpassed magic in my book.

It’s not the long distance 3s or crazy shots ….it’s how he impacts his opponent with his capability to build leads in the matter of minutes! There is no other player that has consistently done this for their team throughout their career.

I’ve watched plenty of nba basketball and I’ve seen players fear Jordan, bird, LeBron….but you don’t hear that associated with curry… but trust me they do fear him. They know that the 1pt lead the warriors have can be a 10 point lead or more in literally 1 minute.

That kid is just special. His impact is unmatched. When those 3s curry puts up go through the net it literally gets into the head of his opponents…when he hits them back to back his opponents show defeat.

Curry a baaaaddd man!…no generational talent has ever been like him.

 

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Why would have Nique as Atlanta goat. 

Limited handles for a perimeter player

Limited vision

Questionable shot selection 

Average motor

Poor defender

So i can give credit where credit is due. Probably the only elite #1 option in Hawks history. A transition menace, probably the best ever with MJ at it. Good at drawing fouls with a +.260 ftr, tremendous rebounder and relentless at attacking the paint with elite body control and just hard to stop on straight line drives with the 80s rules and he really had a good post game and nice footwork which is underrated in my eyes. But they didn't run a ton of actions. PnR, lol. They also did the Trae where they put a bunch of really good defenders around him like Doc, Tree, and others in that era to win games and they did win till the playoffs of course. 

I just don't see any reason Nique is a goat for Atlanta. Possession by possession, he wasn't all that impressive. Sure! His stats and highlights are OMG! But his overall game never did it for me. Like Trae, always crying about having more offensive weapons around him. I do at least think that's a decent ask for Trae, I am not sure it is for Nique.

Ideally, Nique would have been best next to a prime Dwight Howard. Where he wouldn't get in Nique's way with the 80s and 90s rule but Dwight can dominate on defense and clean up the mess for Nique. Nique ain't really a franchise player. He just puts up big numbers like Trae. None of them are guys I consider goats. Maybe Trae can develop into one. We will see but Nique didn't for me. 

So when you say Nique is your Atlanta goat. It just screams to me, that you don't understand Basketball. 

 

Basketball When?

What makes Nique the Atlanta Goat is that we watched him do it against:

Boston Big three... the real Boston Big three.  The Bad Boy Pistons.. the real Bad Boy Pistons.  The Mighty Knicks.  Da Bulls.   The Fish that saved Pittsburgh.... Philadelphia 76ers...  With Dr. J.  The real Doctor.  Even the Pacers.

He did it in a time when handchecking was Legal.  He did it in a time when there were no illegal defenses.   He did it in a time when they rarely called a technical foul.   You had to fight and throw punches to get a tech. 

So with all that factoring against him... HE put the city on his back and carried us.   He didn't have a big three.  He didn't have James Worthy and Kareem.  He didn't have McHale, Parrish, and DJ.   He stands as the franchises LONE All NBA first teamer...

In his time as a Hawk, there are only three players that every been in the allstar game with him:

Doc, Kevin WIllis, and Moses Malone.  That's 3 years out of about 10 that he had allstar talent.  He didn't have guys who was constantly allstar and all NBA candidates. 

 

1993-1994	Dominique Wilkins	Atlanta Hawks	SF	6-7	200	34	Georgia	Eastern All-Star Coaches Selection	-
1992-1993	Dominique Wilkins	Atlanta Hawks	SF	6-7	200	33	Georgia	Eastern All-Star Coaches Selection	-
1991-1992	Dominique Wilkins	Atlanta Hawks	SF	6-7	200	32	Georgia	Eastern All-Star Coaches Selection	-
1991-1992	Kevin Willis	Atlanta Hawks	C	7-0	245	29	Michigan State	Eastern All-Star Replacement Selection	-
1990-1991	Dominique Wilkins	Atlanta Hawks	SF	6-7	200	31	Georgia	Eastern All-Star Coaches Selection	-
1989-1990	Dominique Wilkins	Atlanta Hawks	SF	6-7	200	30	Georgia	Eastern All-Star Coaches Selection	-
1988-1989	Moses Malone	Atlanta Hawks	C	6-10	215	33	Petersburg High School (Virginia)	Eastern All-Star Fan Vote Selection	-
1988-1989	Dominique Wilkins	Atlanta Hawks	SF	6-7	200	29	Georgia	Eastern All-Star Fan Vote Selection	-
1987-1988	Doc Rivers	Atlanta Hawks	G	6-4	185	26	Marquette	Eastern All-Star Coaches Selection	-
1987-1988	Dominique Wilkins	Atlanta Hawks	SF	6-7	200	28	Georgia	Eastern All-Star Fan Vote Selection	-
1986-1987	Dominique Wilkins	Atlanta Hawks	SF	6-7	200	27	Georgia	Eastern All-Star Fan Vote Selection	-
1985-1986	Dominique Wilkins	Atlanta Hawks	SF	6-7	200	26	Georgia	Eastern All-Star Coaches Selection	-

 

The statue is outside for a reason!

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, JTB said:

For me it’s a combination of all those things but what I look for in particular is killer instinct, controlling the game, confidence of a star player and overall impact vs their opponents….those are things that set superstars apart from all stars in my opinion.

Very few players in my opinion has all these traits and the ones that do usually have won multiple titles.
 

I actually believe that Curry is the best point guard of all time strictly based on his impact vs his opponents. Many will say curry isn’t a point guard but hey that’s the position he guards and to me “you are what you can guard”….anyways yes I think curry is the best point guard to ever play in the nba. He has surpassed magic in my book.

It’s not the long distance 3s or crazy shots ….it’s how he impacts his opponent with his capability to build leads in the matter of minutes! There is no other player that has consistently done this for their team throughout their career.

I’ve watched plenty of nba basketball and I’ve seen players fear Jordan, bird, LeBron….but you don’t hear that associated with curry… but trust me they do fear him. They know that the 1pt lead the warriors have can be a 10 point lead or more in literally 1 minute.

That kid is just special. His impact is unmatched. When those 3s curry puts up go through the net it literally gets into the head of his opponents…when he hits them back to back his opponents show defeat.

Curry a baaaaddd man!…no generational talent has ever been like him.

 

Curry is insanely special. Probably one of the top 7-15 players to ever grace the game. Massively improved after his 1st contract like no one I've seen before outside of maybe Nash? 

 

The thing I love about Steph, Duncan, and guys like them. They never put up empty calories like Bron, MJ, Kobe, and a lot of ball usage heavy guys. It's always possession by possession with these guys 

Edited July 23, 2023 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, JTB said:

I actually believe that Curry is the best point guard of all time strictly based on his impact vs his opponents. Many will say curry isn’t a point guard but hey that’s the position he guards and to me “you are what you can guard”….anyways yes I think curry is the best point guard to ever play in the nba. He has surpassed magic in my book.

I would like to call for your attention...  Magic Johnson and John Stockton. 

First Magic.  Magic created this thing called Showtime.   Under the tutoring of Paul Westhead, Magic and the Lakers perfected the fast break.  I know Curry got kids shooting threes... but Magic had Kids running fast breaks and doing No Look passes. 

Since you said PG...  John Stockton is the premiere PG in the History of the NBA.  He made the PICK and ROLL something to be used through the history of basketball.  Jerry Sloan was the architect but Stockton made PNR into a masterpiece that is the backbone of modern Basketball offense.   Understand, PNR wasn't a big thing before Stockton to Malone.   Offense was about dumping the ball off to the big man in the low post or getting the big the ball on some type of motion.  Then came PNR.    Curry got kids shooting threes, but Stockton has offenses using PNR. 

 

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I would like to call for your attention...  Magic Johnson and John Stockton. 

First Magic.  Magic created this thing called Showtime.   Under the tutoring of Paul Westhead, Magic and the Lakers perfected the fast break.  I know Curry got kids shooting threes... but Magic had Kids running fast breaks and doing No Look passes. 

Since you said PG...  John Stockton is the premiere PG in the History of the NBA.  He made the PICK and ROLL something to be used through the history of basketball.  Jerry Sloan was the architect but Stockton made PNR into a masterpiece that is the backbone of modern Basketball offense.   Understand, PNR wasn't a big thing before Stockton to Malone.   Offense was about dumping the ball off to the big man in the low post or getting the big the ball on some type of motion.  Then came PNR.    Curry got kids shooting threes, but Stockton has offenses using PNR. 

 

Stockton is nowhere close to Curry or Magic. Nash and Price is the range he's in. Curry is legit #2 best PG of all time. Magic is the goat PG. I don't think anyone will pass him although Curry is on his heels. You could make a case but both are two of the greatest to ever play this game. 

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I would like to call for your attention...  Magic Johnson and John Stockton. 

First Magic.  Magic created this thing called Showtime.   Under the tutoring of Paul Westhead, Magic and the Lakers perfected the fast break.  I know Curry got kids shooting threes... but Magic had Kids running fast breaks and doing No Look passes. 

Since you said PG...  John Stockton is the premiere PG in the History of the NBA.  He made the PICK and ROLL something to be used through the history of basketball.  Jerry Sloan was the architect but Stockton made PNR into a masterpiece that is the backbone of modern Basketball offense.   Understand, PNR wasn't a big thing before Stockton to Malone.   Offense was about dumping the ball off to the big man in the low post or getting the big the ball on some type of motion.  Then came PNR.    Curry got kids shooting threes, but Stockton has offenses using PNR. 

 

Jazz 90s offense was cheesy as hell. They would move Ostertag to the corner 3. You couldn't cheat off of him even as a non shooter or it was illegal defense. They ran the PnR at the elbow, which would be ABSOLUTELY impossible to do today with the switching and athletics currently in the league. They basically played 3 out, Stockton and Malone at the elbow and just spammed the shit out of the PnR. I watched a Jazz game where they didn't run a different play till 3 mins into the 3rd quarter and because possessions meant absolutely NOTHING in the early to late 90s, if the shit failed, they would just do it AGAIN. This shit was Tom Osborne Nebraska Wing-T offense for the NBA. 

The NBA has grown massively since then.

[NBASupes]

Jeff Teague said it best. I played the hardest defense in my life, and Steph Curry had 44 points. 

As far as Stockton and Malone

Quote

Malone and Stockton.

 

Their legacies are propped up by their longevity, which smoothed over their shortcomings of being passive and not having scoring skillsets and mentalities that were conducive to winning basketball.

 

Stockton shied away from being aggressive when the Jazz needed him to score; he's given a pass for this because of the bullshyt archaic thinking that was attached to him being a pure PG. Malone didn't have a 1v1 scoring skillset and 'alpha' mentality that many of his peers had. He was a master at capitalizing on easy scoring opportunities, as it was his main source of scoring to make up for a lack of skill. He had a habit of fading in-and-out of games too because he didn't have a demeanor of winning by any means necessary.

 

As iconic as they were as a duo, they were also the worst kind of duo because they didn't have contrasting personalities to balance each other out.

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by NBASupes

[akay]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

The best possession by possession

Haven't read your Horford posts enough, what proves this?

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Does more for winning than anyone in Atlanta's history 

Trae has lead a worse team to the ECF and managed to not get swept while putting up historical performances - Al hasn't 

Al also has a worse playoff win % than Trae, so not sure how he's the most winningest in any meaningful sense

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

The most versatile

How has this lead to us winning and getting deep into the playoffs? 

Also, how would you even judge this, versatile is too vague.

A jack of all trades who isn't peak at any of them doesn't take you as far as an offensive savant, even if you're more balanced on both ends of the floor

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

The best defensively

Dikembe exists

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Most actions you can run for him on offense

Ok, and how has this led to him amassing results for himself or his time with the Hawks?

Trae is a whole offense unto himself, is a superior quality than being able to have actions run for you in my opinion

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

He's nothing like that but when you have him on your team, everyone else job is a lot easier due to him

Sounds like Al is above average at a lot of things, not elite at anything compared to people in the top 50- top 75.

It's great when you're able to make your teammates life easier, but outside of this emotional argument you have about how you have to be smart to understand Al's impact and that only smart people can see his value is asinine.

There is 0 time in NBA history where a top 10 NBA handn't established themselves as such through their dominance on the court either in the regular season or the playoffs, real life ain't a tv show where someone can just affect winning so hard but no one notices cause of plot armor.

idk man, I been writing and deleting things but this is wild.

I've seen how you respond to al posts enough so imma chill, but it's honestly pretty cool how you have an opinion totally unique to yourself 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by akay

[akay]

I like hot take posts cause they can introduce you to new ideas you never would've thought of, but not acknowledging a hot take and pretending it's legitimate discussion can be annoying depending on hot the take is - saw Trae ranked 55th on some randos top 100 list and that's so stupid it's not even worth talking about right.

But I'll say Trae winning a couple of chips in Atlanta will put him firmly in the top 3 all time pg list behind Magic and Curry, at minimum he'll end his career a top 10 pg in the HoF ahead of guys like Steve Nash and Stockton.

Also, idk if this is a hot take, but with Quin at the helm I think we win at least 50 games with a good chance to hit 55. 

We lost a lot of dumb coin flip games last year, so lets pretend we win those cause we'll be more locked in, Trae has more dad powers, and Jalen wins MIP. Going to vegas and putting money on our win over no matter what it is,  

[NBASupes]

On 7/23/2023 at 2:25 AM, akay said:

Seems pretty cherry-picked and is helped by his playstyle not being ball dominant 

Trae has lead a worse team to the ECF and managed to not get swept while putting up historical performances - Al hasn't 

Al also has a worse playoff win % than Trae, so not sure how he's the most winningest in any meaningful sense

How has this lead to us winning and getting deep into the playoffs? 

Also, how would you even judge this, versatile is too vague.

A jack of all trades who isn't peak at any of them doesn't take you as far as an offensive savant, even if you're more balanced on both ends of the floor

Dikembe exists

Ok, and how has this led to him amassing results for himself or his time with the Hawks?

Trae is a whole offense unto himself, is a superior quality than being able to have actions run for you in my opinion

Sounds like Al is above average at a lot of things, not elite at anything compared to people in the top 50- top 75.

It's great when you're able to make your teammates life easier, but outside of this emotional argument you have about how you have to be smart to understand Al's impact and that only smart people can see his value is asinine.

There is 0 time in NBA history where a top 10 NBA handn't established themselves as such through their dominance on the court either in the regular season or the playoffs, real life ain't a tv show where someone can just affect winning so hard but no one notices cause of plot armor.

idk man, I been writing and deleting things but this is wild.

I've seen how you respond to al posts enough so imma chill, but it's honestly pretty cool how you have an opinion totally unique to yourself 

 

Can't be cherry picked. He literally does more than anyone who's worned a Hawks jersey on both ends of the court. He's capable of all actions. He can play both on and off the ball. He can play in every scheme at an elite level. I can put Al in any offense and have success. That's hard to do with bigs. They usually have to be catered to. Not Al. 

If you case against Al is he's not a #1 like Nique, pseudo #1 like Trae, #2 like Iso Joe, pseudo #2 like Murray or Smitty. He's a #3 and I value #1s a lot more than #3 options or later, then you would have a point in the grand scheme of the overall value of a player which I agree with you about.

But Nique and Trae just don't do enough good shit to me to overcome Al. Now, let's say Nash, I would definitely say I have him higher than Al overall. Because he does enough offensively that just overpowers Al even if Al is better at a lot more than Nash but offense weighs more than defense and even though Horford has a terrific offensive grade from me, he doesn't have anywhere near the impact of Nash on that end. Nash is a difference maker. A game changer. He's beyond generational, he's one of the top 30-40 players in NBA history in my eyes. 

You give Trae way too much credit for the ECF run. He wasn't even elite against Milwaukee or Philadelphia outside of one game. He played a role but everyone had a major part in that run who played for us. Everyone. Kevin, Bogi, JC, and especially Capela who was critical till the wheels fell off against Milwaukee for him. I would definitely say the ECF Hawks with Trae was more talented than our 60 win Hawks. The 60 win Hawks had a better fit and Al is much better than Trae so that helps too. 

How long will that last for? Al took us to the playoffs every season he played healthy in Atlanta and had us overachieving from the jump. No play in games and no under .500 bullshit seasons outside of his rookie year.

We weren't good enough to go deep into the playoffs outside of one season. We didn't need luck or Ben Simmons being scared of his shadow to get there either. 

[Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

Do you understand schemes? Do you understand how critical it is for you to run them well and break from it if something isn't there. In Football, we value route running and Football IQ from WRs but only in Basketball, is it not valued by the casual. Only in Basketball. Make it make sense. A jack of all trades is someone who is a master of none. Horford is a master of a lot. That's why he's so special. 

[Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

It's more than great, it's massive. It's impactful. It HELPS YOU WIN IN TEAM SPORTS!

If dominance is your measure, if you don't see the game like I do. You will never have a clue what you are talking about ever to me. Ever. You don't see the game the way I see the game. It's like we are watching the same game but you aren't seeing what I see. I am seeing this and that and all of these different actions. All you are seeing is a ball, a player with a ball, an action, a sequence, then a potential possession change, and the ball goes to the next team for a possession. You just don't see the game the way I do. [Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

I don't think you are stupid. I think you are smart. Just don't see things the way I do. Nothing is wrong with that. [Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

[NBASupes]

30 minutes ago, akay said:

I like hot take posts cause they can introduce you to new ideas you never would've thought of, but not acknowledging a hot take and pretending it's legitimate discussion can be annoying depending on hot the take is - saw Trae ranked 55th on some randos top 100 list and that's so stupid it's not even worth talking about right.

But I'll say Trae winning a couple of chips in Atlanta will put him firmly in the top 3 all time pg list behind Magic and Curry, at minimum he'll end his career a top 10 pg in the HoF ahead of guys like Steve Nash and Stockton.

Also, idk if this is a hot take, but with Quin at the helm I think we win at least 50 games with a good chance to hit 55. 

We lost a lot of dumb coin flip games last year, so lets pretend we win those cause we'll be more locked in, Trae has more dad powers, and Jalen wins MIP. Going to vegas and putting money on our win over no matter what it is,  

Trae disrespect does bother me because they really don't see him enough to understand his offensive juggernaut abilities. He uses his lack of size as an asset in getting into space and really putting tremendous pressure on the defense like he's molding a diamond. I saw a list where they didn't even have Murray in the top 100. The hate be so real, the love be so fake. 

[NBASupes]

That ECF team that we had with Trae had two top 30 players with Clint that season and Trae. 6 top 100 guys with Hunter, JC, Kevin, Gallo, Lou, and Bogi. Not to mention Snell and Solo were key in the RS for us plus the firing of LP.

That was by far the best team we had in Atlanta so far. Last year had more talent but some of the guys are way too young 

Edited July 23, 2023 by NBASupes

[warcore]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Limited handles for a perimeter player

Limited vision

Average motor

You cannot take jabs at Nique for the above and prop up Deandre Hunter at the same time. 

That's a case of the hypocrisy knob turned up to 11.  

[NBASupes]

On 7/23/2023 at 3:16 AM, warcore said:

You cannot take jabs at Nique for the above and prop up Deandre Hunter at the same time. 

That's a case of the hypocrisy knob turned up to 11.  

This makes no sense. 

[Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

[warcore]

On 7/23/2023 at 3:19 AM, NBASupes said:

This makes no sense. Hawksquawk.net ya'll 

 

[Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

Ok I can explain it.   use my brain. 

You listed poor handles, vision and motor as reasons Nique is not an all time Hawk great. 

You prop up Deandre. 

Deandre has terrible handles, vision and motor. 

Are you the only one unable to process it? 

Anybody else able to help me out?

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, warcore said:

Ok I can explain it.   use my brain. 

You listed poor handles, vision and motor as reasons Nique is not an all time Hawk great. 

You prop up Deandre. 

Deandre has terrible handles, vision and motor. 

Are you the only one unable to process it? 

Anybody else able to help me out?

He is an all time great Atlanta Hawk and he's much better than Dre. 

He's just not the goat. Al is. 

He's a #1 option but while he's elite at it. He doesn't make others better and we couldn't put the offensive talent around him that we needed to because his defense is shit and we had to put defenders around him instead. He wasn't a playmaker. He wasn't a shooter. He was a scorer who was elite in transition who was an excellent post player for a SF. 

That's an excellent player. Much better than Dre. 

I can't process it. 

Dre is a worse handler than Nique due to fact He has poor hands as well 

His vision is bad. 

His motor is better than what ya'll think it is without question  

I can't process it. Make it make sense. 

[Spud2nique]

In b4 the lock  

 

 

[Peoriabird]

Has Horford ever been on a losing or non playoff team in his career? I don't think so.

[Spud2nique]

We shouldn’t be comparing Al to Nique but rather Kevin Willis. 
 

Al 13 points 8 rebounds 

Willis 12 points 8 rebounds

 

Although Willis was times as physical and would prolly make Alice cry no joke dead serious.

[Spud2nique]

5 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Has Horford ever been on a losing or non playoff team in his career? I don't think so.

OKC 20-21. They finished 22-50 that year. with the help or lack there of Alice!

He played 28/82 games that year prolly nursing his titty tear half a decade before..

Edited July 23, 2023 by Spud2nique