Do you like posts that are considered hot takes when in reality they are or could be true?

[NBASupes]

5 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

This is a pretty good look at what Sloan did in Utah in the 1990s. 

For those of you who like off ball screens and off ball movement in general, these videos are a must watch. 

And no, their offense wasn't just running 1 or 2 plays, or a bland offense at all.  It's just that their execution on most nights were high level.

It also shows just how smart and tough John Stockton was.

 

 

They definitely ran plays, everyone did, it was the 90s of course. What I was saying is they would spam that 1/4 PnR especially in the late 90s. It was Paul Johnson at GT, if you can't stop it, why change it up and even if you did stop it, they would spam it anyway. We ran a lot of plays under Nate but we spammed the shit out of the 1/5 PnR and everyone knew what was coming. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by NBASupes

[Spud2nique]

35 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

Here’s my controversial hot-take:

A Tribe Called Quest was the best hip hop group ever. 

Is Tupac in that category? If so, I’d have to disagree. I that dude day 1 in 90 East Bay. Went to a humpty concert in 97 in San Jo. That big coke head gave us a show broh. We were all faded in the crowd it felt like the most intense euphoric feeling ever. I’m pretty sure my drink wasn’t spiked but who the hell knows back then somebody prolly roofied ya boi Spud up tryin to take him home and have their way with him. 
 

This one time.. (PM for the rest of the story it’s a good one, it’s funny and clean).  

Go Hawks!

[NBASupes]

47 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

A #3 cannot be a GOAT. 

You could make an argument that he provides more value in his role as a #3 than a particular #1 provides in their role. Like WAR to dollars spent or whatever. 
 

But #1s are players are players that carry a team. When you need a bucket, you need a win, you put the ball in their hands and they will it. GOATs are players coaches focus their systems on, draw plays for them to get points, and other teams focus their attention on stopping more than anyone else on the team. GOATs get double teamed at half court.  #3s are release valves that make themselves available to get a bucket when the #1 has pulled defenses to one part of the floor to make it easier for the 2s and 3s to succeed. Joe Johnson did as much to make Al better as Al did for JJ. 
 

Al was not a focal point of his teams. Coach didn’t draw up plays time and again to get the ball in his hands have have him carry the team to victory. 
 

Al provides more value than impact. Value is important for winning teams. You need value, you need players who outperform their positional roles, especially compared to the players on other teams. But value isn’t the same as impact. And to be the GOAT of a team, a draft class, a league season, a league history, you need to be a head of the snake, center of gravity, impactful player that your team and the other team knows will be getting the ball. Al was a great player, but that’s not Al. 

That's for you. 

Not for me. 

 

As I said, Horford all around elite ability for possession by possession basketball outweighs Nique, a flawed #1 option who's elite at scoring or Trae, a flawed offensive juggernaut. Add to the fact that both are bad defenders. Al clearly gets the nod for me. If you don't see the game like I do. I don't see how you would ever value Al. It's like comparing Julio Jones at Bama to Michael Crabtree at Texas Tech. I value Jones a lot more than I value Crabtree even though Crabtree put up insane stats at Tech whereas Jones stats at Bama wasn't close to Crabtree. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

6 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Has Horford ever been on a losing or non playoff team in his career? I don't think so.

Never. He's too f***ing good makes a trash ass team decent. OKC was the only one and they were a playoff team in the 8th seed before they sat him and SGA out to tank. He made a tank ass squad a playoff contender during his f***ing peak. Insane shit!

[NBASupes]

6 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Duncan 19/10

Kat 23/11

Kat> Duncan right?

Lol, yep!

Minny Love > Prime Nash right?

These Boys really have zero understanding of the game. It's a damn shame. 

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

They definitely ran plays, everyone did, it was the 90s of course. What I was saying is they would spam that 1/4 PnR especially in the late 90s. It was Paul Johnson at GT, if you can't stop it, why change it up and even if you did stop it, they would spam it anyway. We ran a lot of plays under Nate but we spammed the shit out of the 1/5 PnR and everyone knew what was coming. 

Supes, I gotta ask something here, be honest.. did you ever see Nique play in a game live, whether in person or on tv but live, not highlights of games or plays, did you watch that man rock the Omni, the city and young fans 3000 miles across the country? I had the Rockets (Akeem my first love), the Warriors (moved to the bay in 85), the Lakers (hot with Magic everyone loved showtime), the Pistons (Zeke Joe and bad boys just assembling early stages) the Celts (Bird McHale Parish) but Nique’s play (and spud) was electrifying ️ AF. You had to be there at the time and sense and smell it, that era, there were like 10 SUPER SUPER STARS, maybe 15-20, #21 was there..

:15- the end You had to smell it @NBASupes you had to the time that it took place. It’s that IT factor, IT was ELECTRIC ️ IT TOOK ATLANTA! 21  

GO HAWKS!!!!!!

[NBASupes]

On 7/23/2023 at 8:36 AM, thecampster said:

 

Unlike some, I don't just back up my hot takes with profanities.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/mark_price_vs_john_stockton.htm

 

@Sothron you know I love you but Price never made an all NBA defensive team. Stockton made 5. I don't get better defender. Even Mark Price doesn't get that argument. All team or leader categories. Price 5, Stockton 29.  I need a better argument here than eye test.

 

 

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/al_horford_vs_dominique_wilkins.htm

all team or leader categories  9-2 Wilkins.  I'm going to need more here as well.  Especially considering the following:

1) Wilkins didn't force his way out of town.

2) Even the Hawks never gave Al a max contract.

3) No team ever gave Al a max contract.

 

 

Lastly, before you go off on how none of us know basketball like you do or see the game right or any of that nonsense, let me threaten you with receipts.  Don't make me pull out the 2018 draft thread where you tried to convince everyone that Mo Bamba or Marvin Bagley was the player to choose.  The player to choose over Jaren Jackson Jr., Trae Young and Luka Doncic.  I keep receipts!

 

 

 

Price didn't play in the scheme, personnel grouping, or era that Nash did. Price has a film case. Not a statistical case. 

Stats is generally the failure of [bad analysis] in general. 

I watched both Nique and Al play. Zero chance you can convince me Nique is better. Not in a million years. If you don't see the game like I do, it's two people arguing for the sake of no purpose. I stop debating with MJ stans for the same reason many years ago for that reason. 

We got three types of fans in today's NBA 

The old school which is what I consider most posters here. Raw stats, mixed with some new analytics and as long as it props up the players I value, it's a good metric even in reality, none of these stats really say shit unless you understand the game, word to Gregg Popovich.

The new school, extremely analytical. Tries to be very unbiased. Will praise players like Caruso and make them a bigger deal than they should and will not praise guys with real impact unless it's obvious like Steph Curry. I consider Benhill and AHF to be in this tier. 

Then you got the middle, the eye testers. Depending on how they understand the game, is how they call it. They don't care about the masses opinion and hold a low opinion of them in general. That's people like me. I even consider Diesel to be this but stuck in 1992 in general. These are the guys you will disagree or agree with the most because they don't f*** with the status quo and don't give a damn either. 

[Spud2nique]

@NBASupes #8 betcha didn’t see that ish, ya he could create for others too but he was so freakin great at puttin the rockin the hole he just did that instead.

 

Real greatness

 

 

[bird_dirt]

12 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Is Tupac in that category? If so, I’d have to disagree. I that dude day 1 in 90 East Bay. Went to a humpty concert in 97 in San Jo. That big coke head gave us a show broh. We were all faded in the crowd it felt like the most intense euphoric feeling ever. I’m pretty sure my drink wasn’t spiked but who the hell knows back then somebody prolly roofied ya boi Spud up tryin to take him home and have their way with him. 
 

This one time.. (PM for the rest of the story it’s a good one, it’s funny and clean).  

Go Hawks!

Pac solo, not group (2 or more). 

ATCQ

Outkast

Wu

The Roots

Digable Planets

De La Soul

Pharcyde

Hieroglyphics 

Brand Nubian 

Jurassic 5

Black Star

RtJ

Run DMC

who else ya got?

ATCQ above all. 

[Spud2nique]

On 7/23/2023 at 11:21 AM, NBASupes said:

failure of the [bad analysis]

[note:  content of the quote edited by mod]

[NBASupes]

On 7/23/2023 at 8:55 AM, thecampster said:

In this same thread, I argued the merit of drafting Trae against JJJ with @KB21.  First, KB 95% nailed this draft with his evaluation and pretty much everyone on the board owes him an apology (not me, I was team KB).  IMHO, I won this scrape but we both came out of it nudging toward the other's opinion and agreeing  we wouldn't hate the other's pick.  See Here:

 

 

 

I was clear, 3 years before JJJ would have the impact KB was saying he'd have.  Years 1-3, JJJ averaged 15 pts and 1.5 blocks.  Year 4/5. More efficient 16.5 ppg but 2.3 and 3.0 blocks respectively. My point was Trae would be the starter and high impact from day 1.

I felt there were some drawbacks to Luka (I still do) that are hard to overlook (pace, decision making). I can admit I was wrong on some of my assessment. Still happy we grabbed Trae and a pick. Hated how we wasted that pick.

There is nothing wrong with a hot take.  But there is something wrong with "this is my take, you're all dumb and nothing can change my opinion".  The purpose of a hot take is to be willing to discuss and hear other opinions to measure yours against theirs.  You have to go into it with integrity.

 

The draft is the draft. No one knows what's going to happen or where the players will go. No one can predict that players will stop progressing or some will progress massively. That's why it's a crap shoot. 

When talking about proven players with a track record with a RESUME and FILM. We tend to be better suited for our opinions and facts as we know how they look on this LEVEL.  

[Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

I get it, the personal insults was wack, my bad. [Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

My bad campster and Jay. I didn't like anyone tell me I am wrong when I know I am right. 

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, bird_dirt said:

Pac solo, not group (2 or more). 

What abouts 2 of americas most wanted with ?  That’s 2. #piggiesmalls #jrmafiaidontknowwhatthehellsstoppinya

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Young John Stockton and Malone vs Showtime Lakers in the playoffs.

 

 

 

They were down 10 with 3 minutes to go in this game vs Houston ( with Drexler, Olajuwon, and Barkley ).  If they lose, they go to a Game 7.  If they win, they go to the NBA Finals.

 

 

I broke down the 80s and 90s Jazz to an extreme degree on another site. I can post it here as well. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

In this same thread, I argued the merit of drafting Trae against JJJ with @KB21.  First, KB 95% nailed this draft with his evaluation and pretty much everyone on the board owes him an apology (not me, I was team KB).  IMHO, I won this scrape but we both came out of it nudging toward the other's opinion and agreeing  we wouldn't hate the other's pick.  See Here:

 

 

 

I was clear, 3 years before JJJ would have the impact KB was saying he'd have.  Years 1-3, JJJ averaged 15 pts and 1.5 blocks.  Year 4/5. More efficient 16.5 ppg but 2.3 and 3.0 blocks respectively. My point was Trae would be the starter and high impact from day 1.

I felt there were some drawbacks to Luka (I still do) that are hard to overlook (pace, decision making). I can admit I was wrong on some of my assessment. Still happy we grabbed Trae and a pick. Hated how we wasted that pick.

There is nothing wrong with a hot take.  But there is something wrong with "this is my take, you're all dumb and nothing can change my opinion".  The purpose of a hot take is to be willing to discuss and hear other opinions to measure yours against theirs.  You have to go into it with integrity.

 

 

Gotta agree that @KB21 was A+ with his analysis.  I, like some others, were duped by Bagley's hyper activity, and didn't properly evaluate his actual skills as a player.  And the fact that he hasn't been able to stay healthy, is an absolute killer.

My thing with the 2018 draft, was that I wanted to draft a guy that had the most potential in becoming a superstar.  I didn't see that in JJJ, but thought he'd play in the league a long time. I finally came around on being good if we took Trae or Luka.

My analysis in that thread overall was a C- at best.  Not as bad as others, but still bad overall.

[NBASupes]

13 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Gotta agree that @KB21 was A+ with his analysis.  I, like some others, were duped by Bagley's hyper activity, and didn't properly evaluate his actual skills as a player.  And the fact that he hasn't been able to stay healthy, is an absolute killer.

My thing with the 2018 draft, was that I wanted to draft a guy that had the most potential in becoming a superstar.  I didn't see that in JJJ, but thought he'd play in the league a long time. I finally came around on being good if we took Trae or Luka.

My analysis in that thread overall was a C- at best.  Not as bad as others, but still bad overall.

Draft analysis is hard. I would say mines was a F- in 2018. 2019, C-. 2020 - C. I like my last three drafts a lot. I actually stopped watching them with projection and just rated what they can do, what they maybe able to do, and their comps are key. Guys like Jarrett Culver who I was down on, I became uberly down on which are great college players who don't translate well due to their style of play and lack of something

Bagley was #1 player. Luka was #2. Trae was below Sexton and SGA but his upside was the highest of anyone in the draft to me with Bamba next. All of it was wrong as f***. I changed up pretty much everything after 2020. I do think I nailed Luka late in the process during EuroLeague when I shot him to the top of the list. 

The issue also is, the NBA moved to a completely different style of game. If you don't fit no matter how good you are ability or talent wise. The NBA plays a certain style and that's that. 

Draft is hard. I had Brandan Wright ahead of Horford and didn't really value Al like that until I watched him every game in the NBA. 

While the NBA was going away from heliocentric offenses, Harden had other teams wanting it which was where Luka and Trae came into the mix

Edited July 23, 2023 by NBASupes

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, bird_dirt said:

Here’s my controversial hot-take:

A Tribe Called Quest was the best hip hop group ever. 

 

Not controversial at all.  Yes, you have a GOAT group in ATL and an iconic gangsta rap group in LA, but Tribe was damn near flawless for about a 4 - 5 year stretch.

[Spud2nique]

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Trae was below Sexton

 

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I had Brandan Wright ahead of Horford

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

 

You literally used to bring up Wright all the time back in the days. Why are you acting shocked.

I had Trae at 22 till the last month. I bumped him up to what would be tier 3.5 today. I was real stubborn on Trae as a prospect. I really think it was you that got me to reevaluate him and I boosted him because of you and mainly you alone. 

Mikal Bridges was the player that I was extremely high on that fell. I had him as the 5th best prospect and the best overall player in the draft till Luka jumped him at the end. I was shocked to see him fall out of the tip 10. I also had MPJ high but he fell because of health which shocked no one including me. MPJ was in my top 4. MB3, LUKA, AYTON, and MPJ. Bridges and Bamba was what would be tier 3. Trae was tier 3.5 with Sexton, Wendell Carter, SGA, Miles Bridges who I was high on. I hated Knox and Jerome Robinson and those two flopped. 

Bagley was my clear #1. He could do everything physically but mentally, health wise, body wise, and BBIQ wise, I fugged that one up. 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

You literally used to bring up Wright all the time back in the days. Why are you acting shocked.

I had Trae at 22 till the last month. I bumped him up to what would be tier 3.5 today. I was real stubborn on Trae as a prospect. I really think it was you that got me to reevaluate him and I boosted him because of you and mainly you alone. 

Mikal Bridges was the player that I was extremely high on that fell. I had him as the 5th best prospect and the best overall player in the draft till Luka jumped him at the end. I was shocked to see him fall out of the tip 10. I also had MPJ high but he fell because of health which shocked no one including me. MPJ was in my top 4. MB3, LUKA, AYTON, and MPJ. Bridges and Bamba was what would be tier 3. Trae was tier 3.5 with Sexton, Wendell Carter, SGA, Miles Bridges who I was high on. I hated Knox and Jerome Robinson and those two flopped. 

Bagley was my clear #1. He could do everything physically but mentally, health wise, body wise, and BBIQ wise, I fugged that one up. 

Trae was a tough eval. On surface. I f***ing hated his game. I hated the set jumper. I hated he had to work extra hard to get his shot off. I hated his frame. I hated that he wasn't that athletic. I hated his decision making skills and still do. I hated his ability to make others better. I didn't think he did that. I didn't think he could shoot. He has zero off ball abilities and seemed to not care. His defense was just f***ing awful. I literally had him at 22 around guys like Greyson Allen, Josh Okogie, and Chandler Hutchinson. What moved me was really watching his game to analyze it. At first, I didn't really watch him like that. I caught a few minutes. Didn't like what I saw and only started watching in conference play where he was shit. So I had a bad taste in my mouth. 

After spud recommendation to watch him again. I realize how special and generational of an offensive engine he is. I till this day never seen a PG put so much pressue on a defense like Trae. I instantly shot him up the board and he moved into the top 10 and he was now a part of the big 2 now 3 with Sexton and SGA. PGs I really liked in college. Before you ask, did Sexton live up to his potential. I never had his potential that high but I thought he at the least would be an elite 6th man and he hasn't become that yet. 

SGA has far surpassed what I had for him. By far. Trae far surpassed the floor but hasn't really come close to the ceiling I had for him. Trae can be an ATG but he has aways to go. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

48 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

Pac solo, not group (2 or more). 

ATCQ

Outkast

Wu

The Roots

Digable Planets

De La Soul

Pharcyde

Hieroglyphics 

Brand Nubian 

Jurassic 5

Black Star

RtJ

Run DMC

who else ya got?

ATCQ above all. 

 

Toss in The Geto Boys, 3-6 Mafia, UGK, and my favorite, Public Enemy, into that mix.