Do you like posts that are considered hot takes when in reality they are or could be true?

[NBASupes]

My opinion that Al Horford was a top 10 player in his prime and that he's the greatest Atlanta Hawk

@Sothron belief that Mark Price is better than Steve Nash and one of the greatest PGs of all time and didn't have to spam like many after him.

I generally like it and encourage it. I want to hear your reasoning and how you see the game.

 

Off the rip, I wanted to disagree with @Sothron but when i watched the film and really broke down his game, if used correctly, Price could have been a MVP candidate and every bit as special as Nash and possibly better. 

It's all about how you see the game. I see it by impact and possession by possession. Some love stats. Some love their eye test. Some love offense. Some love defense. Some love want appeals to their eyes and uses stats that benefit that player to hype them up, ie MJ stans. 

[theheroatl]

No. Al Horford was not top 10 ever and Mark Price was not better than Steve Nash. Hot takes are fun for convo but reality is embedded in facts.

MJ and Kobe both had stats and had killer instinct. They didn’t accept defeat. Lebron has that now. Not sure if any others that have killer instinct and stats.

Edited July 22, 2023 by theheroatl

[TRW]

Yes. Dominique Wilkins was the greatest Atlanta Hawk of all-time. Many people just automatically think that Nique was only a dunker. The man had a nice jumper and outstanding low post game. Al Horford was one of the most consistent players in his prime but certainly not the best. Mark Pruce was good but he was defintely not Steve Nash. Price was a great shooter but he didn't have the passing skills of Nash and he played at a slower tempo if I remember correctly. I definitely go by the eye test.

[ABH]

1 hour ago, theheroatl said:

No. Al Horford was not top 10 ever and Mark Price was not better than Steve Nash. Hot takes are fun for convo but reality is embedded in facts.

MJ and Kobe both had stats and had killer instinct. They didn’t accept defeat. Lebron has that now. Not sure if any others that have killer instinct and stats.

LOL..LeBron don't have it

[kg01]

Kinda feels like you just wanted to argue about that first statement... again. 

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

My opinion that Al Horford was a top 10 player in his prime and that he's the greatest Atlanta Hawk

@Sothron belief that Mark Price is better than Steve Nash and one of the greatest PGs of all time and didn't have to spam like many after him.

I generally like it and encourage it. I want to hear your reasoning and how you see the game.

 

Off the rip, I wanted to disagree with @Sothron but when i watched the film and really broke down his game, if used correctly, Price could have been a MVP candidate and every bit as special as Nash and possibly better. 

It's all about how you see the game. I see it by impact and possession by possession. Some love stats. Some love their eye test. Some love offense. Some love defense. Some love want appeals to their eyes and uses stats that benefit that player to hype them up, ie MJ stans. 

So much to go at here.

Horford won't make the Hall of Fame....isn't a top 75 player all time. That puts him solidly behind Nique, not to mention Pistol Pete, not to mention a number of Hawks from the past.

He's a career 13.4 ppg/ 8.1 rpg player. He broke 18 ppg once, 10 rebounds once in his career (12/13 season). He broke 5 apg once, never broke 2 blocks per game. he shot a career 51.3% from the field.  He was a good player. He was never great, more or less best anything.  He did some non-stat things well but he wasn't great, even in his best season.  To show you want I mean, Josh Smith had a higher PPG average in his career, slightly less rebounds per game, but similar apg/more spg and more bpg.  I loved Josh, I'd never call him "best Hawk ever". 

Joe Johnson was more impactful. There's a lot of players with better career stats.  Al was good, not great and this nonsense needs to stop.

 

Mark Price is a nice player. Career 15.2/6.7/1.2 player over 11 seasons.

John Stockton though, career 13.1 points in 19 seasons. He averaged 10.5 assists per game in 8 additional seasons with 2.2 apg in that time.  They aren't in the same category.  If you take Stockton's best 11 seasons in comparison to Price, its like comparing a starter to his backup. If used right, if different coach is nonsense. Price played for 4 different teams in his career. His best season assist total was 10.4.....Stockton beat that with his career average.  

 

Stats don't favor your arguments. The eye test for most players, most coaches and fans don't back it up either. I can't argue with your worldview, that's yours. But nothing else backs it up except you and Horford's dad/sister.

[JayBirdHawk]

.........seems like another cleverly disguised Al Horford discussion.....but hey you can have as many hot takes as you can, but Al Horford has never ever been a top 10 player in the ENTIRE NBA at his peak and neither is he the best Atlanta Hawks player.

[Sothron]

I've watched the NBA since 1979. Comparing Price who in his era with those era's rules was All NBA and comparing Nash in his era with those era's rules? Yeah, Price is simply the better player. They both were excellent passers, shooters and had high basketball IQ. Price was a far better defensive player. He's even smaller than Nash and was still a much better defensive player. 

If Price had stayed healthy and more importantly played in Mike D'antoni's system in Nash's era then we would be talking about Price as the greatest pure point guard in the history of the NBA. 

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I am just calling it like I see it. Mark Price was a stone cold killer that literally every player in his era when asked GUSHES over and all says he should be in the HOF. 

[timebomb]

Al Horford has averaged 12.5 points, 8.2 rebounds and 3.4 assists in 167 games in the playoffs in his career.

I used to have my own nickname for Al when he was here I called him the Magician because he’d disappear in big moments. No he was never a top 10 player. 

[JayBirdHawk]

Just ONE!

[Sothron]

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Just ONE!

And look at Mark Price right there as first team All NBA in the literal golden era of the NBA. Remarkable.

[Spud2nique]

20 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

neither is he the best Atlanta Hawks player.

Not best 10 Hawk ever. 

[Spud2nique]

20 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I've watched the NBA since 1979. Comparing Price who in his era with those era's rules was All NBA and comparing Nash in his era with those era's rules? Yeah, Price is simply the better player. They both were excellent passers, shooters and had high basketball IQ. Price was a far better defensive player. He's even smaller than Nash and was still a much better defensive player. 

If Price had stayed healthy and more importantly played in Mike D'antoni's system in Nash's era then we would be talking about Price as the greatest pure point guard in the history of the NBA. 

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I am just calling it like I see it. Mark Price was a stone cold killer that literally every player in his era when asked GUSHES over and all says he should be in the HOF. 

When we finally meet up I got the Hawks Cavs 1990 Xmas game on VHS. Nique and Spud vs Price Ehlo and company. We ended up winning that one. What do you like, popcorn , nuts ? Pizza Cali style burritos !  
 

Price was a bada$$ and hurt the Hawks for half a decade pretty badly. That Cavs team was decimated by the Jordan shot over Ehlo and never got over it. I saw that shot by Mike live and at the time, I had no idea that moment would be a top 5 nba moment of all time. 
 

 

[NBASupes]

4 hours ago, TRW said:

Yes. Dominique Wilkins was the greatest Atlanta Hawk of all-time. Many people just automatically think that Nique was only a dunker. The man had a nice jumper and outstanding low post game. Al Horford was one of the most consistent players in his prime but certainly not the best. Mark Pruce was good but he was defintely not Steve Nash. Price was a great shooter but he didn't have the passing skills of Nash and he played at a slower tempo if I remember correctly. I definitely go by the eye test.

I never looked at Nique as just a dunker and always spoke highly of Nique. I just don't find him to be all that impactful in terms of elite players. Tremendous offensive player. Elite scorer in transition but I've always had him in the same tier with Carmelo Anthony. 

Al will never get the respect he deserves because his prime wasn't with a good group. If he played his prime with Boston and not just the tail end of his prime with Boston. We would be looking at him as easily a top 50 player of all time. Easily. 

As I've stated previously,

There is no one like him. Mikal Bridges is the closest I've seen. 

Quote

He's been the main piece behind two #1 seeds.

His impact on the game is always beyond numbers and ALWAYS appears on the game tape.

His movement both on offense and defense, ability to break from the play to the right read like a top tier NFL route runner.

His defensive awareness.

His defensive movement with his quick hands.

His elite agility off of the ball.

His screen setting ability, especially off script screens which are backdoor cuts, flares, pin down curls, at the ability to finish while making an elite decision off of that.

His intangibles are as good as anyone I've ever seen in the NBA ever.

His ability to run all sets of offenses. You can put him in an isotype offense, movement type offense, grit n' grind type of offense, uptempo, midtempo, slow tempo, perimeter-centric, post-centric, screen-centric, PnR centric offense.

His ability to defend multiple positions and not just protect one player on the court but ALL players on the court on defense.

His ability to blend into his teammates' strengths which further helps them in terms of development and impact.

We have seen this with almost every player who's played with Horford.

 

He's the most impactful player I've seen that gets no respect for his impact. I mean, we see Giannis, LeBron, Kobe, etc. But it's like Al does SO MUCH more to make others better but gets no respect. I've heard knowledgeable fans compare him to Horace Grant who was, all in all, a good role player but he didn't make no one's life easier. He just had a define skill-set which is similar to Al's but it completely removes all of what Al can do above which Horace could NEVER do.

 

Maybe I just see the game better than most and of course, I've seen 100's of Al's games live or different versions of the tape so I have more experience with him than many others do but at some point, put some respect on his name.

 

Easily the Hawks goat. I will never like Niques defense and his lack of playmaking for a #1 option. Unless Trae figures out decision making and how to game manage, it's going to be hard to put him above Nique much less Al. 

I didn't see Sweet Lou and what I've seen of Atlanta Pistol, I just can't put him above even Iso Joe or Smitty. New Orleans Pete, sure. 

For me, Al will always be this franchise goat outside of St. Louis. If you add Cliff Hagan or Pettit, it's hard to go against them. Especially Pettit is for sure, top 30. 

 

As for Price, when I really looked into Price, you really can make a case for him. He never had a system like D'Antoni or an offensive weapon like Amare. You can really make a case for him. Me personally, I like Nash more but Price is legit. I think his game was more advanced when you look back on it. 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by NBASupes

[JTB]

4 hours ago, theheroatl said:

No. Al Horford was not top 10 ever and Mark Price was not better than Steve Nash. Hot takes are fun for convo but reality is embedded in facts.

MJ and Kobe both had stats and had killer instinct. They didn’t accept defeat. Lebron has that now. Not sure if any others that have killer instinct and stats.

That’s an interesting take. My favorite player of all time has always been Kobe but I don’t think he’s the best player ever. I actually think there is no such thing as GOAT.

but as far as killer instinct that doesn’t belong to only MJ & Kobe in my opinion. It also belongs to Magic, Bird, Jabbar, Isaiah Thomas (Zeke)…I can go on.

I think personally think LeBron didn’t have the killer instinct until  his 3rd finals appearance when he won with Miami after getting embarrassed by Dirk and the mavs. LeBron picked up what I consider “killer instinct” late compared to some of the other greats.

Curry in my opinion also belongs on this list of killer instinct as well as Duncan.

Edited July 23, 2023 by JTB

[kg01]

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

That's your stupid ass opinion

There's literally one person, other than people with 'Horford' as their last name, that shares your opinion of Al Horford.  And that's not because you see anything that no one else does.  It's simply because you're wrong.

You only bring up this odd opinion to give yourself a chance to name-call and insult other posters.

The next step is for you to threaten and further insult others.  Is this fun for you? 

[NBASupes]

On 7/23/2023 at 12:16 AM, kg01 said:

There's literally one person, other than people with 'Horford' as their last name, that shares your opinion of Al Horford.  And that's not because you see anything that no one else does.  It's simply because you're wrong.

You only bring up this odd opinion to give yourself a chance to name-call and insult other posters.

The next step is for you to threaten and further insult others.  Is this fun for you? 

I've proven so many times on here why he's the best player to play in Atlanta. 

The best possession by possession player. 

Does more for winning than anyone in Atlanta's history 

The most versatile 

The best defensively 

Most actions you can run for him on offense.

The most actions you can run for him on defense.

If he played for the Lakers or Celtics his entire career. We would be talking about 10x all nba, easily one of the best players to play the game guys top 50-75 guy. Because he plays in Atlanta, only respect he gets is from smart executives, coaches, and his peers who had the experience to play with him. 

If you really understood Basketball, you wouldn't be such a dullard on this topic. 

We are talking about someone who can rim protect, paint protect, communicate at an elite level, move with elite defensive and offensive positioning. If you knew just how valuable all of the S*** Al does for winning is. 

Steve Kerr can tell. All Atlanta coaches can tell you. Stevens can tell you. Ime can tell you. Donovan can tell you. S***, everyone can. 

Ya'll live in a world where you love Kevin Love putting up insane numbers with Minnesota and having no f***ing impact on the game over Al Horford controlling the game on both ends making it 1000x easier for his teammates and our personnel. 

I don't really think you guys understand. Draymond is like this but to a much lesser extent than Al. Al is probably 2nd to only Duncan in how he impacts the game from a possession by possession basis on both ends. 

Obviously, Duncan is clearly superior. Green is superior defensively as he can really get stocks too but Al is as good as it gets. He's not your traditional superstar. 25/12/3. He's nothing like that but when you have him on your team, everyone else job is a lot easier due to him. Everyone!

[kg01]

On 7/23/2023 at 12:28 AM, NBASupes said:

I've proven so many times on here why he's the best player to play in Atlanta. 

The best possession by possession player. 

Does more for winning than anyone in Atlanta's history 

The most versatile 

The best defensively 

Most actions you can run for him on offense.

The most actions you can run for him on defense.

If he played for the Lakers or Celtics his entire career. We would be talking about 10x all nba, easily one of the best players to play the game guys top 50-75 guy. Because he plays in Atlanta, only respect he gets is from smart executives, coaches, and his peers who had the experience to play with him. 

If you really understood Basketball, you wouldn't be such a dullard on this topic. 

We are talking about someone who can rim protect, paint protect, communicate at an elite level, move with elite defensive and offensive positioning. If you knew just how valuable all of the SHIT Al does for winning is. 

Steve Kerr can tell. All Atlanta coaches can tell you. Stevens can tell you. Ime can tell you. Donovan can tell you. Shit, everyone can. 

Ya'll live in a world where you love Kevin Love putting up insane numbers with Minnesota and having no f***ing impact on the game over Al Horford controlling the game on both ends making it 1000x easier for his teammates and our personnel. 

I don't really think you guys understand. Draymond is like this but to a much lesser extent than Al. Al is probably 2nd to only Duncan in how he impacts the game from a possession by possession basis on both ends. 

Obviously, Duncan is clearly superior. Green is superior defensively as he can really get stocks too but Al is as good as it gets. He's not your traditional superstar. 25/12/3. He's nothing like that but when you have him on your team, everyone else job is a lot easier due to him. Everyone!

You are wrong.  Just accept it and move on.

Find literally one person, anywhere in the universe, that even remotely agrees with you.  I'll wait.

Or are you telling us your "understanding" of basketball dwarfs everyone else in the known universe. 

This is an unrealistic conversation I'll no longer have any part of.

There's clearly a reason your first move is to lob personal attacks.  It's because you don't even believe what you're saying. 

[NBASupes]

Why would have Nique as Atlanta goat. 

Limited handles for a perimeter player

Limited vision

Questionable shot selection 

Average motor

Poor defender

So i can give credit where credit is due. Probably the only elite #1 option in Hawks history. A transition menace, probably the best ever with MJ at it. Good at drawing fouls with a +.260 ftr, tremendous rebounder and relentless at attacking the paint with elite body control and just hard to stop on straight line drives with the 80s rules and he really had a good post game and nice footwork which is underrated in my eyes. But they didn't run a ton of actions. PnR, lol. They also did the Trae where they put a bunch of really good defenders around him like Doc, Tree, and others in that era to win games and they did win till the playoffs of course. 

I just don't see any reason Nique is a goat for Atlanta. Possession by possession, he wasn't all that impressive. Sure! His stats and highlights are OMG! But his overall game never did it for me. Like Trae, always crying about having more offensive weapons around him. I do at least think that's a decent ask for Trae, I am not sure it is for Nique.

Ideally, Nique would have been best next to a prime Dwight Howard. Where he wouldn't get in Nique's way with the 80s and 90s rule but Dwight can dominate on defense and clean up the mess for Nique. Nique ain't really a franchise player. He just puts up big numbers like Trae. None of them are guys I consider goats. Maybe Trae can develop into one. We will see but Nique didn't for me. 

So when you say Nique is your Atlanta goat. It just screams to me  [that I have a different opinion]. 

[Diesel]

Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, KG, KD, Steph, Magic, Giannis, Jokic

These are just some MVP winners.   Who are you replacing??