John Collins vs. Ghostman.

[Diesel]

Just doing a quick review of the trade...

These are John Collins stats.

Somebody please find the stats for the vapor of Rudy Gay?

 

[macdaddy]

[Diesel]

This Joker is shooting better than Bogi. 

50% from the field and almost 42% from three.   It is a damn shame. 

 

[theheroatl]

I'm so glad we are not talking about John Collins anymore... 

 

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

I'm so glad we are not talking about John Collins anymore... 

 

You mean all the he's done talk that we had when he was coming off of a freak injury?  All the JC is the problem talk?

Yeah.

 

[AHF]

Collins is still continuing his trend of struggling in +/-.

He has a positive +/- in 3 of of 16 games this season.  Total -106 on the season.

Lauri by contrast is -43 on the season so it isn't just an issue of the starters.  

Still not a huge sample size but a disturbing trend all the same.

For JC, if these were his full season numbers they would be his:

• 2nd worst PER of his career
• Worst TS% of his career
• 2nd worst WS/48 of his career
• Worst BPM of his career
• Worst VORP of his career

His rebounding has, well, rebounded but not a lot else of his game is going real well early this season.  Plenty of season left, however, and he is adjusting to a new team, new system, and new teammates.  Will see how it plays out before coming to a firm conclusion.

I don't think we've missed JC very much this season but I think we will be missing him now just like we missed Huerter badly when Bogi was hurt last year.

[Threezus]

Honestly for me it's not Rudy Gay i would compare him to it's the guy who took his spot and got his minutes i compare him to.

That would be Jalen Johnson on a much cheaper contract and im willing to bet Jalen is very comparable to Collins numbers with better defense for a ton less money.  Allowing us to use that money on other players for the future.

[Final_quest]

I guarantee if we had JC and Huerter we’d have a similar record and people would be furious about being $30M over the luxury line.  There would be a thread every day about how to shed salary to be in a better cap position.  There would be other threads about having no minutes available to develop young players.  

Also, Collins is not shooting better than Bogi.  Bogi shoots eight 3’s a night off the bench.  Collins shoots 3 or 4 as a starter.  He makes a slightly higher percentage, but nowhere near the shooting threat.  

JC is not the answer.  

 

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I guarantee if we had JC and Huerter we’d have a similar record and people would be furious about being $30M over the luxury line.  There would be a thread every day about how to shed salary to be in a better cap position.  There would be other threads about having no minutes available to develop young players.  

Also, Collins is not shooting better than Bogi.  Bogi shoots eight 3’s a night off the bench.  Collins shoots 3 or 4 as a starter.  He makes a slightly higher percentage, but nowhere near the shooting threat.  

JC is not the answer.  

 

He's not not the answer.  Only reason we got rid of those guys was money.  I understand it but it's hard to look at this team and say we have a good big rotation.  Even with JJ we're weak up front and without him it's just a shell game trying to rotate undersized guys in to cover up.  

We also got rid of JC in anticipation of some other trades and didn't do it.  We still have some time though. 

I like how we are playing and things are going ok right now but so far no one has really stepped up as a vocal leader on this team.   It's honestly not a super fun team yet.  I think everyone is doing their job and playing hard but doesn't look like they are having a bunch of fun.  There's still time to gel though. 

[Final_quest]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

He's not not the answer.  Only reason we got rid of those guys was money.  I understand it but it's hard to look at this team and say we have a good big rotation.  Even with JJ we're weak up front and without him it's just a shell game trying to rotate undersized guys in to cover up.  

We also got rid of JC in anticipation of some other trades and didn't do it.  We still have some time though. 

I like how we are playing and things are going ok right now but so far no one has really stepped up as a vocal leader on this team.   It's honestly not a super fun team yet.  I think everyone is doing their job and playing hard but doesn't look like they are having a bunch of fun.  There's still time to gel though. 

I honestly think the FO tried to get a front court player, but couldn’t stomach the assets required.  The cupboard definitely looks bare with Jalen out.  

Might prompt a move.  Tony gets easily provoked into trades.  If we lose a lot during the next 4-6 weeks, might hear some rumors.    

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Threezus said:

Honestly for me it's not Rudy Gay i would compare him to it's the guy who took his spot and got his minutes i compare him to.

That would be Jalen Johnson on a much cheaper contract and im willing to bet Jalen is very comparable to Collins numbers with better defense for a ton less money.  Allowing us to use that money on other players for the future.

Well, it could just as easily be Jalen in the rotation with JC.   That's why it's not a good comparison.   What if our starting lineup were Trae, DJ, JJ, JC, and Clint...  That's what I'm saying. So it is JC vs. Ghostman because we traded him for nothing. 

 

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I honestly think the FO tried to get a front court player, but couldn’t stomach the assets required.  The cupboard definitely looks bare with Jalen out.  

Might prompt a move.  Tony gets easily provoked into trades.  If we lose a lot during the next 4-6 weeks, might hear some rumors.    

It's sad but I'm hoping that Gueye sneaks in and gets some minutes.    That's how thin we are right now. I believe that Gueye has a good future and that's he's very green now but early in this season, we can put him out there and see if he can adapt. 

Moreover,  JC for nothing without getting any signs of a big back left us very thin up front. 

Lastly... Shooting ~42% from the 3 pt line... even if he is shooting 4 threes a game is still makes him enough of a threat to open the lane.   I mean, aren't we constantly applauding JJ and he's shooting less than 3 threes a game?

I don't care about these team centered stats that everybody likes to use... I just think about what he can do.  Rebound, Shoot threes and score.   Stuff we need.  

It kills me that everybody becomes an accountant on these basketball messageboards and forget that winning is job one.   Not saving the owner money. 

 

 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

It's sad but I'm hoping that Gueye sneaks in and gets some minutes.    That's how thin we are right now. I believe that Gueye has a good future and that's he's very green now but early in this season, we can put him out there and see if he can adapt. 

 

Is there any timetable for when Gueye will return to basketball activities?

[sturt]

38 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I guarantee

That's enough for me.

 

(And Tony.)

[Diesel]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

Is there any timetable for when Gueye will return to basketball activities?

He will be reevaluated in 2 weeks.   Not good. 

 

[macdaddy]

29 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Well, it could just as easily be Jalen in the rotation with JC.   That's why it's not a good comparison.   What if our starting lineup were Trae, DJ, JJ, JC, and Clint...  That's what I'm saying. So it is JC vs. Ghostman because we traded him for nothing. 

 

Or Trae, DJ, Hunter, JJ, JC.  JC can play center.  

[Final_quest]

I'll say this for Tony's credit.  He gets sh*t done.  He has way more bravado than any other Hawks owner since Turner.  Not always the right move, but that is bound to happen when you are trigger happy.  

He did get us further as a franchise than any other owner in a short amount of time.  Drunk on success they made some bad decisions making long term commitments to a roster that lacked actual star power that a true contender needs.  We've been in course correction mode ever since, and it's harder to do than people realize.  

Consider the moves he actually made:

1. Drafting Trae.  Could argue he should have taken Luka, but he got still got the best draft pick since Nique.  A true franchise player.

2. Trade for Capela.  Got a top PnR threat for Trae and a true defensive anchor at the time.  

3. Signed Bogi and Gallo in the same offseason.  The two biggest FAs we signed since Mutumbo.  Millsap was better, but he was unwanted by every other team in the league.  Tony got two high profile signings.  Something we had not done in decades.  

4. Landed an allstar guard, DM, in his prime and then resigned him for a reasonable deal.  

5. Brings in one of the most regarded head coaches in the league.

***********************************************************************

I see the effort from Tony that previous owner's did not put in and the ability to make deals happen.  He cares, and I truly believe this past summer he traded Collins with the goal of landing a guy like Siakam which would have required GOING OVER THE LUXURY LINE.  It didn't work and they had to make the tough decision to fold and be patient. He wanted to continue his pattern of being aggressive and all of the media reports and insider details backed that up.  I honestly think it killed him to have to fold with nothing to show for their efforts last summer.  

He's willing to spend but d*mn give him a little runway to be prudent and opportunistic.  After the ECF he fell for the hype and gave everyone a big contract.  He's showing some measure of restraint and the value of managing a cap.  I do think he's the kind of guy who will fire every bullet in his clip, and has a history of showing he will.  In any case over the past 5 years he's made more significant moves than the previous 20 years.   Almost built a contender in about a 3-4 year time period which is next to impossible.  

[JayBirdHawk]

Sure....but as long as we keep trading players to stay under the TAX LINE....we won't ever take the next step. We aren't getting back anything oncourt to help. Just recycling and being happy making the playoffs. Rinse repeat, rinse repeat. 

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

I'll say this for Tony's credit.  He gets sh*t done.  He has way more bravado than any other Hawks owner since Turner.  Not always the right move, but that is bound to happen when you are trigger happy.  

He did get us further as a franchise than any other owner in a short amount of time.  Drunk on success they made some bad decisions making long term commitments to a roster that lacked actual star power that a true contender needs.  We've been in course correction mode ever since, and it's harder to do than people realize.  

Consider the moves he actually made:

1. Drafting Trae.  Could argue he should have taken Luka, but he got still got the best draft pick since Nique.  A true franchise player.

2. Trade for Capela.  Got a top PnR threat for Trae and a true defensive anchor at the time.  

3. Signed Bogi and Gallo in the same offseason.  The two biggest FAs we signed since Mutumbo.  Millsap was better, but he was unwanted by every other team in the league.  Tony got two high profile signings.  Something we had not done in decades.  

4. Landed an allstar guard, DM, in his prime and then resigned him for a reasonable deal.  

5. Brings in one of the most regarded head coaches in the league.

***********************************************************************

I see the effort from Tony that previous owner's did not put in and the ability to make deals happen.  He cares, and I truly believe this past summer he traded Collins with the goal of landing a guy like Siakam which would have required GOING OVER THE LUXURY LINE.  It didn't work and they had to make the tough decision to fold and be patient. He wanted to continue his pattern of being aggressive and all of the media reports and insider details backed that up.  I honestly think it killed him to have to fold with nothing to show for their efforts last summer.  

He's willing to spend but d*mn give him a little runway to be prudent and opportunistic.  After the ECF he fell for the hype and gave everyone a big contract.  He's showing some measure of restraint and the value of managing a cap.  I do think he's the kind of guy who will fire every bullet in his clip, and has a history of showing he will.  In any case over the past 5 years he's made more significant moves than the previous 20 years.   Almost built a contender in about a 3-4 year time period which is next to impossible.  

I think people forget there are 29 other GMs/Owners out there all trying to do the same thing.  In a world where all things are equal, every team would win the chip once every 30 years.  But in a world where once in a generation players show up once in a generation, tv market and advertising deals affect player movement and different cities have different income thresholds to allow a larger risk appetite against the luxury tax, winning the chip requires monumental efforts of herculean proportion.

If you looked at the average cost of real estate for metro areas of the top 30 teams and then correlated that to average season record, I think you'd be surprised.

Start here:  https://www.sportico.com/feature/nba-team-values-ranking-list-1234697991/.  Shows how unique that Denver win was.

Edited November 28, 2023 by thecampster

[macdaddy]

22 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I think people forget there are 29 other GMs/Owners out there all trying to do the same thing.  In a world where all things are equal, every team would win the chip once every 30 years.  But in a world where once in a generation players show up once in a generation, tv market and advertising deals affect player movement and different cities have different income thresholds to allow a larger risk appetite against the luxury tax, winning the chip requires monumental efforts of herculean proportion.

If you looked at the average cost of real estate for metro areas of the top 30 teams and then correlated that to average season record, I think you'd be surprised.

Start here:  https://www.sportico.com/feature/nba-team-values-ranking-list-1234697991/.  Shows how unique that Denver win was.

Winning it all is extremely difficult.  Being a top 10 team much less so.  The one thing we know for sure is that you can't be a top team without spending money.  

I don't have anything against Tony and his time as owner has been better than ASG for sure.  But I still think for him it's mostly about growing the value of the franchise and the sweetheart deal he scored for Centennial Yards development is the cornerstone of that.   Once all of that is realized I think he starts shopping the team and we'll see him walk away with something like 5-10x what he paid for it.