Smoove is no 4!!!!!!!!!!

[TroyMcClure]

He really took it to the rack tonight. I went to the game and it was frustration as usual, except for Shaq hamming it up for the kiss-cam. That was funny. Smoove played pretty good, but here's the problem: He played on the wing the whole night. We only had one player anywhere near the paint. We ran a 4 guard lineup that I try to get away with at the park. Oh, Smoove was in the game. But what was he playing? It wasn't power forward. It was more like small forward, slashing, dishing, etc. Chill wound up playing a quasi-pf on offense. On defense, Smoove got worked repeatedly by Haslem. I'm sorry but 8 boards a game and not being able to handle Udonis Haslem, is not what you're big man needs to be. We can't win with Smoove as a full-time 4. It's not in his nature. It was an open wound on D all night. Anything they wanted, they took. We didn't guard Williams at all. They became very bored with the lead. Shaq didn't even play the 3rd. It was much farther apart than the final score would indicate.That was some of the worst defense I've ever seen. Typical Hawks D. ZERO communication.

Also, Shelden made his nicest play as a Hawk, a powerful clearout and dunk, followed by a rebound, only to be yanked by Woody.

[Plastic Man]

haslem is not exactly a scrub.

i agree about j will. he was given way too much space.

[Diesel]

I think in the end we made it very interesting but whoops... I think you're right as I've said all along, Smoove is not a 4. We only have him there for 1 reason.

[D.R.P.]

Smoove is more of a 4 than a 3. Don't discredit Haslem's post defense. JSmith has a better chance of taking Haslem off of the dribble than posting him up. Diesel, Smoove would still be playing the 4 even if Chris Paul was drafted instead of Marvin Williams. If Paul was drafted Childress would start at the 3. The fact of the matter is JSmith is hell of a lot more productive at the 4 than the 3.

[Nicholasp27]

he IS a 4

he is more productive when playing the 4

his pf opps are less productive than his sf opps

that's this year, but i'm 90% sure it was the case every year he's been in the nba

he may not be a conventional 4, but then again he's not a conventional player at all

he def isn't a 3

he's a 4, sorry

[Jdawgflow]

From what I saw, Smoove needs to quit taking all the jumpers because he is just not that good of a shooter. Every game I have watched, the guy who defends him almost always lets him shoot.

And for all you Smoove lovers, this is not a bashing thread, he is definately a good player. He is just not a shooter yet.

IMO, he needs to play more down low. (He has been doing this more lately, just not tonight)

[TroyMcClure]

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Smoove is more of a 4 than a 3. Don't discredit Haslem's post defense. JSmith has a better chance of taking Haslem off of the dribble than posting him up.

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That's not what I meant. Smoove was really very good tonight on offense. I'm talking about his defense. Haslem worked him on the cut all night. I'm saying that he should be able to dominate a guy Haslem's size. They are relatively the same size and, if he can't handle him?

[HawkNJersey]

Excuse my French, but at what point in the game did Haslem dominate? He had 10 pts, 7 rebs..he had 4 TOS. Maybe I missed it..but where did he dominate? He drew a few fouls..a hustle here and there,but his impact was minimal.

Smoove may have stayed on the wings...but thats the organization's fault. Yeah he attempted to post, but we have NOONE on the perimeter who can feed the post. He drives and slashes, because we have no guards that can penetrate. Smooves biggest problem is, he's trying to do everybody elses job. He tries to block every shot. Steal every pass. Push the ball up the court EVERY REBOUND. Drive and create for others. Force passes, because we have NO creators.Play help defense.....etc. Let is not forget he is the best SF and PF we have. He's only playing PF because of the FO drafts.

Thank (your higher entity) we have him. We've seen what this team looks like without him.

[Plastic Man]

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From what I saw, Smoove needs to quit taking all the jumpers because he is just not that good of a shooter. Every game I have watched, the guy who defends him almost always lets him shoot.

And for all you Smoove lovers, this is not a bashing thread, he is definately a good player. He is just not a shooter yet.

IMO, he needs to play more down low. (He has been doing this more lately, just not tonight)

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i agree. with his athletic ability he needs to make the opposing D work harder. he has made some progress with his jumper but he needs to hang out around the hoop more often.

[TroyMcClure]

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he IS a 4

he is more productive when playing the 4

his pf opps are less productive than his sf opps

that's this year, but i'm 90% sure it was the case every year he's been in the nba

he may not be a conventional 4, but then again he's not a conventional player at all

he def isn't a 3

he's a 4, sorry

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he IS a 4

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Why?

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he is more productive when playing the 4

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What is "the 4"? He certainly played zero PF tonight. Zero. He was in the paint on offense maybe, two times.

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he def isn't a 3

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Why? He is a slasher. He is also a passer. He likes to size up and dish. He's a point-forward. He can also stretch the defense with an improving jumper. He hit a 3 tonight, in fact.

There is not much of an argument for him playing the 4 full-time. His skill-set does not allow it.

[TroyMcClure]

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From what I saw, Smoove needs to quit taking all the jumpers because he is just not that good of a shooter. Every game I have watched, the guy who defends him almost always lets him shoot.

And for all you Smoove lovers, this is not a bashing thread, he is definately a good player. He is just not a shooter yet.

IMO, he needs to play more down low. (He has been doing this more lately, just not tonight)

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i agree. with his athletic ability he needs to make the opposing D work harder. he has made some progress with his jumper but he needs to hang out around the hoop more often.

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Did you guys see the game tonight? Smoove playing point forward on the wing was the only thing that kept us remotely in the game. He only took a few j's. He would get it on the wing, size up and attack. He looked really good tonight. He was trying to carry us. No help. None. He needs to play point forward 3 and sometimes a 4. Regardless of position, I think he needs to be on the wing on offense and improve his man to man defense and we have an All-Star.

[Jdawgflow]

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He is a slasher. He is also a passer. He likes to size up and dish. He's a point-forward. He can also stretch the defense with an improving jumper. He hit a 3 tonight, in fact.

There is not much of an argument for him playing the 4 full-time. His skill-set does not allow it.

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I have to disagree here. The aspect of Smoove's game that has improved the most is his driving the ball and scoring down low. One three does not make his shot good. No one usually even guards him outside. They throw a nominal hand up from five feet away and turn around.

OTOH, Josh is playing much better because he is using his athletic ability to his advantage much more than he used to. No one in this league can jump with him and he is also quicker than most fours. He is just now learning that he can use his God given abilities to do things others can't. That is from his growing confidence. When he settles for jumpers he is hurting the team. Don't get me wrong, an occasional jumper is ok, but he needs to be driving, posting, and O-rebounding MOST of the time.

[TroyMcClure]

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I have to disagree here. The aspect of Smoove's game that has improved the most is his driving the ball and scoring down low. One three does not make his shot good. No one usually even guards him outside. They throw a nominal hand up from five feet away and turn around.

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I don't want to sound like a jerk but, I know one three does not make his shot good. Please don't play that game. I think he has a nice looking stroke. No real flaws. His shot selection is improving.

He has virtually no post moves. No post game. This may be where we fundamentally disagree. I feel you have to be able to throw it in to someone every possession. Inside - out basketball. That's the way I feel. We play the opposite, to telling results.

Also, he just gets pushed around inside and his athleticism is diminished signifigantly. He needs to stretch his legs to be productive.

[Jdawgflow]

I am not trying to play a "game" with you as you call it, but you did use his three pointer to help make your argument. I just feel that regardless of a couple of shots, Josh, as a whole, is just not that good of a shooter. His skills are around the basket where he is getting much better at finishing. You are correct that he is not great on the block yet, but he is getting better. I would definately rather watch him play down there than shooting jumpers. It wastes his skills. If he misses down low, the chance for a rebound is much greater. He also gets a lot of foul calls (due to his jumping ability) that get the opposing teams post players in foul trouble.

On your point that Josh is not a low post scorer, you said

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He has virtually no post moves. No post game. This may be where we fundamentally disagree. I feel you have to be able to throw it in to someone every possession. Inside - out basketball. That's the way I feel. We play the opposite, to telling results.

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I disagree in that I feel Josh is learning some post moves (even if a good portion of that right now is just jumping higher than the defender and shooting a baby hook) because he is scoring more often down low. This is definately still developing, but the point is, it IS developing.

I do agree that we need a consistent low post threat to increase our chances of becoming true contenders. This does not have to be Josh, however. I feel that he is best suited to do a little of everything like you stated. He has done a very good job thus far as a 4. I feel that he can continue to do this as a 4. My point is that I don't want to see him settle for jumpers because that is not what he is best at. Shoot a couple to keep the D honest, just not a lot. Let Marvin and Joe do that, they are much better at it.

About the low post threat. I don't think we have one right now. There is an outside chance Zaza could become that. More than likely, though, we will have to draft someone or make a trade.

PS -- please don't think that I was trying to demean you in my previous post, I am just stating a difference of opinion and felt that your comment about the three pointer was used to help justify your point about Josh being able to shoot well; I feel that stronger evidence is needed to prove that point, and based on his overall shooting, there is not enough evidence to prove it at this time

PPS -- I would very much like him to prove me wrong, but even if he does develop a great shot, I still don't think he should rely on it; IMO he can be an All-Star 4

[Johnnybravo4]

I don't care how bad his jumper is. If your man sags in the lane and leaves you wide open, then you take the shot. D Wade shoots about 20% from three, but do you think that prevents him from taking wide open ones? Driving into crowded lanes leads to only one thing... turnovers.

[Jdawgflow]

I'm not saying don't ever shoot a jumper. Shoot a few to keep the D honest, but don't rely on them. Smoove is not a jump shooter. He has had more success IMO driving into crowded lanes than bricking J's. Take it for what it is worth (about the same as most everybody else's opinion on this board).

[AtLaS]

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On defense, Smoove got worked repeatedly by Haslem. I'm sorry but 8 boards a game and not being able to handle Udonis Haslem, is not what you're big man needs to be.

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Haslem had 10 points and 7 rebounds. Have you ever seen Smith guard a quick SF?? Obviously not or you wouldn't have made that statement.

Smoove was being put in trade scenarios, and getting bashed DAILY when he was playing SF earlier this year. He is not quick enough to beat SF's off the dribble. It's the same on defense, he can't keep up with SF's. Also, when playing PF, it allows him to come helpside with blocks a lot easier without leaving his man as far behind. Coincidence he's averaging more blocks now than he ever has in his career? I think not.

Smith is averaging about 9 rebounds/game since moving to PF. Why is he putting up the best numbers of his life at PF? What's the difference between Josh and Kenyon Martin in Jersey playing PF? Josh is the better shot-blocker, shooter, passer, on top of everything that Martin was in Jersey.

The FACTS are that Smith has never played as well playing SF as he has playing PF, and the stats prove that. Smith played SF for 2 1/2 years, as soon as he transitioned to PF he blew up. Coincidence?? I think not.

[SmooveTheFuture]

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On defense, Smoove got worked repeatedly by Haslem. I'm sorry but 8 boards a game and not being able to handle Udonis Haslem, is not what you're big man needs to be.

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Haslem had 10 points and 7 rebounds. Have you ever seen Smith guard a quick SF?? Obviously not or you wouldn't have made that statement.

Smoove was being put in trade scenarios, and getting bashed DAILY when he was playing SF earlier this year. He is not quick enough to beat SF's off the dribble. It's the same on defense, he can't keep up with SF's. Also, when playing PF, it allows him to come helpside with blocks a lot easier without leaving his man as far behind. Coincidence he's averaging more blocks now than he ever has in his career? I think not.

Smith is averaging about 9 rebounds/game since moving to PF. Why is he putting up the best numbers of his life at PF? What's the difference between Josh and Kenyon Martin in Jersey playing PF? Josh is the better shot-blocker, shooter, passer, on top of everything that Martin was in Jersey.

The FACTS are that Smith has never played as well playing SF as he has playing PF, and the stats prove that. Smith played SF for 2 1/2 years, as soon as he transitioned to PF he blew up. Coincidence?? I think not.

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I agree with all this but the thing is if you ask the man himself Josh Smith he will tell you he wants to be a SF. I heard interview after the Kings game when someone asked him what are some things he needs to work on. He mentioned ball handling to beat his man off the dribble and cutting on his turnovers. THat doesnt seem like a PF to me. I hope he can turn into a Chris Bosh PF. Who can beat you from the ouside and the inside. If Josh could become Bosh with better defense and blocks hell be a star in this league. Because he is def. more exciting then Bosh but Bosh has the more polished skills and tools right now. Bosh gets to the line it seems like 8-10 x a night that makes him great because he can also hit the lefty jumper. Josh needs to learn how to get to the line , play hard inside and make people pay for fouling him.

[AtLaS]

I see what you're saying, but where does that leave Marvin? And trust me, I'm no Marvin fan, but I at least want to give him a chance to develop into a good player. And since Smith has played better at PF anyway, and right now his skills seem to fit that bill, I think he should play there.

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I agree with all this but the thing is if you ask the man himself Josh Smith he will tell you he wants to be a SF. I heard interview after the Kings game when someone asked him what are some things he needs to work on. He mentioned ball handling to beat his man off the dribble and cutting on his turnovers. THat doesnt seem like a PF to me.

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I don't think that meant he wants to play SF.

He needs to work on ball handling regardless of whether he's going to be an SF or PF, that's just something he needs to work on. And he was turning it over just as much playing SF as he is playing PF. JJ turns the ball over a ton too, and it's mainly because of us having no PG to take care of the ball. When you have no PG, players have to create things for themselves, and when forced to create your own shots, it results in a lot of turnovers. Plus he's only 21 and young players usually have turnover problems.

[Atlantaholic]

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JJ turns the ball over a ton too

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This is a pretty big misconception that a lot of people have. What you have to take into account when looking at JJ's TOs is that virtually no one in the league plays more minutes than he does. As it stands JJ is around 10th in TOs, which seems pretty high; however if you look at TOP48M JJ goes all the way down to around 35th on the list, which is really terrific for a guy who is one of our main ball handlers.

However Josh Smith ranks about 10th in TO's and 10th in TOP48M . Which is genuinely high for any type of player, especially a PF. (Though both Dwight Howard, and Eddy Curry average more. Studamire is not far behind either)