Merged: Amare would like to be on the Hawks by his words

[hawkman]

So what??? :thumbsdownsmileyanim:

What about other factors of his game? Smoove leads us in Blocks, Steals.... 2nd in Reb and 3 in Assists.

Some of you guys are so blind by points you forget about the other facts of the game.

I would not trade Smoove for Amare. Smoove, Big AL and JJ should be untouchable if we ever plan to keep claiming.

There are simply too many agendas around here. Josh had a darn good Playoff run for us and all I've seen around here lately are threads/posts about trading him. Yeah, he has his issues but his positives far outweigh his negatives. The guy with "no BBall IQ" also happens to be a stat sheet stuffer who only want to improve and diversify his game. You can also add the fact that he is signed to a very reasonable contract too. I just don't see how giving him up for Amare REALLY helps this team other than adding a big name(and big contract). Heck, Josh will probably average 19 and 8 easily in a few years, and he'll actually play some defense and dish off some sweet passes along the way too. Just give the young man some time.

[tomac]

Trading Josh for Amare would be a big mistake for a number of reasons. The defensive liabilities have already been mentioned, and you gain a player who is arguably only a marginally better offensive player (6-8 ppg). Josh is the only true game changer we have. He outclassed every player on our team during the playoffs. It wasn't Josh showing the poor BB IQ. Bibby and Joe lead the team in turnovers, and the back court play was poor for the better part of 2 series. Josh acutally was the one who held it together; particularly from the defensive end of the floor.

Sund made a very relevant point about Josh in his interview with Mark Bradley. The point is that Josh continues to get better each and every year. The reality is that (over time) his jumper will improve. This is simply becaseu we know that he works on it. Once that happens, the moments which cause lots of us to question his basketball knowledge will disappear. To me, he's already an above average passer and his low post game is coming around. He's got way too much upside.

If anything, you want Amare WITH Josh. That would be by far the most explosive front line in the league. Right now, I think Amare is in entering the 4th year of a 5-year 73 million dollar contract. He's making about the same money as Joe. We can free that kind of doe up with the right moves.

[AHF]

Trading Josh for Amare would be a big mistake for a number of reasons. The defensive liabilities have already been mentioned, and you gain a player who is arguably only a marginally better offensive player (6-8 ppg). Josh is the only true game changer we have. He outclassed every player on our team during the playoffs. It wasn't Josh showing the poor BB IQ. Bibby and Joe lead the team in turnovers, and the back court play was poor for the better part of 2 series. Josh acutally was the one who held it together; particularly from the defensive end of the floor.

Sund made a very relevant point about Josh in his interview with Mark Bradley. The point is that Josh continues to get better each and every year. The reality is that (over time) his jumper will improve. This is simply becaseu we know that he works on it. Once that happens, the moments which cause lots of us to question his basketball knowledge will disappear. To me, he's already an above average passer and his low post game is coming around. He's got way too much upside.

If anything, you want Amare WITH Josh. That would be by far the most explosive front line in the league. Right now, I think Amare is in entering the 4th year of a 5-year 73 million dollar contract. He's making about the same money as Joe. We can free that kind of doe up with the right moves.

I have no problem with people not wanting to deal Smith for Amare. However, saying that Amare is only a marginally better offensive player is crazy.

The last three years the gap is:

Amare 2006 ORtg 116, TS% .637, 22.4 pp36

Smith 2006 ORTg 99, TS% .506, 16 pp36

Amare 2007 ORtg 124, TS% .656, 26.7 pp36

Smith 2007 ORTg 102, TS% .520, 17.5 pp36

Amare ORtg 117, TS% .617, 21 pp36

Smith 2008 ORTg 103, TS% .533, 16 pp36

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stoudam01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjo03.html

That is miles apart. Putting Amare in Josh's place on offense would be a HUGE upgrade. Defensively, not so much. Health-wise, not so much. Salary-wise, not so much. But offensively, it is a very, very lopsided comparison.

[Kimsey]

I have no problem with people not wanting to deal Smith for Amare. However, saying that Amare is only a marginally better offensive player is crazy.

The last three years the gap is:

Amare 2006 ORtg 116, TS% .637, 22.4 pp36

Smith 2006 ORTg 99, TS% .506, 16 pp36

Amare 2007 ORtg 124, TS% .656, 26.7 pp36

Smith 2007 ORTg 102, TS% .520, 17.5 pp36

Amare ORtg 117, TS% .617, 21 pp36

Smith 2008 ORTg 103, TS% .533, 16 pp36

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stoudam01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithjo03.html

That is miles apart. Putting Amare in Josh's place on offense would be a HUGE upgrade. Defensively, not so much. Health-wise, not so much. Salary-wise, not so much. But offensively, it is a very, very lopsided comparison.

I thinks it's hands down AS is better offensively than JS. But I would have to imagine the spoon feeding Nash:Amare is nearly identical to that of Stockton:Malone. I wonder how many assists per game Bibby to Smith amounts to. Is there any site to compare to these stats?

[AtLaS]

I thinks it's hands down AS is better offensively than JS. But I would have to imagine the spoon feeding Nash:Amare is nearly identical to that of Stockton:Malone. I wonder how many assists per game Bibby to Smith amounts to. Is there any site to compare to these stats?

Amare does not rely on the pick and roll to score. Sure, he scores plenty off of it, but he still dominates when Nash doesn't play. His jumper is GREAT and he dominates driving to the basket where he scores or draws fouls, and he's a good FT shooter.

[Brotha2ThaNite]

A lot of Smith's steals come from jumping the passing lanes. Most of the time when he tries to get the steal he fails and leaves the defense exposed behind him.

His shotblocking was way down this year. His rebounding sucks and he is a turnover machine.

If you want to want to look at all facets of the game you have to bring up Smith's problems as well. After 5 years in the league he is still trying to lead the break and jack 3s.

Amare is a legit All-Star and one of the most efficient scorers in the league. Saying "big Al" is untradeable really makes me wonder about your judgement. The only way Horford will ever get to the All-Star game is if he buys a ticket.

LOL

You guys have never learned from the Nique trade.

It's funny how fans always trash their players and give props to other team's players. I wonder if it's because they don't watch the other teams' players like they watch their team. So, it's hard for them to see their negatives. :whistling:

We always see the bad as triple time worst then the good :idea:

I bet you a lot of Suns fans would trade for Smoove in a heart beat too.

I can't believe you turn Smooves GOOD stats into bad news. LOL you are a sad dude. Yes, his steals are gambles.....BUT WHAT STEALS ARE NOT???? They can get you beat or the refs will called a foul.

Smooves rebs this year was 7.2.

Amare was 8.1 VERY BIG SPREAD FOR A GUY WHO MAYBE HAVE 3 TO 4 more inches in reach :jeer:

Smoove's TURNOVERS WERE 2.3

Amare's TURNOVERS WERE 2.8

:thumbsupsmileyanim:

Keep it coming with the stats. LOL

Edited May 22, 2009 by Brotha2ThaNite

[Brotha2ThaNite]

There are simply too many agendas around here. Josh had a darn good Playoff run for us and all I've seen around here lately are threads/posts about trading him. Yeah, he has his issues but his positives far outweigh his negatives. The guy with "no BBall IQ" also happens to be a stat sheet stuffer who only want to improve and diversify his game. You can also add the fact that he is signed to a very reasonable contract too. I just don't see how giving him up for Amare REALLY helps this team other than adding a big name(and big contract). Heck, Josh will probably average 19 and 8 easily in a few years, and he'll actually play some defense and dish off some sweet passes along the way too. Just give the young man some time.

Dang, I just notice my typo... lol

:write a letter:

*Climbing

[MaceCase]

Is there a hustle statistic? Because Smoove beats STAT in all imaginable categories of that. I wonder would any of you be making these same arguments for Zach Randolph? Well you are for pratically the same type of player. Atleast Randolph is a LEGITIMATE 20 and 10 guy, when has Amar'e ever achieved that? You also have the benefit knowing that Randolph is atleast signed after 2010 and doesn't need an elite PG feeding him. So please let's all start the trade Smoove for Randolph trade talks.

Edited May 22, 2009 by MaCeCase

[MaceCase]

LOL

You guys have never learned from the Nique trade.

It's funny how fans always trash their players and give props to other team's players. I wonder if it's because they don't watch the other teams' players like they watch their team. So, it's hard for them to see their negatives. :whistling:

We always see the bad as triple time worst then the good :idea:

I bet you a lot of Suns fans would trade for Smoove in a heart beat too.

I can't believe you turn Smooves GOOD stats into bad news. LOL you are a sad dude. Yes, his steals are gambles.....BUT WHAT STEALS ARE NOT???? They can get you beat or the refs will called a foul.

Yea Brotha it's also interesting to have Chris Paul be in the all defensive first team when all he does is gamble for steals. I guess it's a strength for one guy but considered a weakness for our guys, heck Mami had a high stealing back court I guess they picked up those stats by just sitting in the lane rather than playing that turnover forcing defense of theirs. :blow out candles:

[exodus]

LOL

You guys have never learned from the Nique trade.

It's funny how fans always trash their players and give props to other team's players. I wonder if it's because they don't watch the other teams' players like they watch their team. So, it's hard for them to see their negatives. :whistling:

We always see the bad as triple time worst then the good :idea:

I bet you a lot of Suns fans would trade for Smoove in a heart beat too.

I can't believe you turn Smooves GOOD stats into bad news. LOL you are a sad dude. Yes, his steals are gambles.....BUT WHAT STEALS ARE NOT???? They can get you beat or the refs will called a foul.

Smooves rebs this year was 7.2.

Amare was 8.1 VERY BIG SPREAD FOR A GUY WHO MAYBE HAVE 3 TO 4 more inches in reach :jeer:

Smoove's TURNOVERS WERE 2.3

Amare's TURNOVERS WERE 2.8

:thumbsupsmileyanim:

Keep it coming with the stats. LOL

Do you really think all steals are from gambling? you don't think any of them are actually on the ball?

The Suns 11th in the NBA in rebounding. The Hawks were 25th. It is a lot easier to get rebounds on a team that sucks at rebounding. Amare's rebounding rate this season was the worst of his career but it was still better than Smiths.

You want more stats? Amare's PER of 20.39 was 6th in the NBA among 4s even though it was his worst number since his rookie year. Smith was 19th. amare's efficiency rating of 22.92 was 13th in the NBA. Smith's rating of 17.9 was 54th.The Suns also gave up 4.5 ppg less when Amare was playing.

Amare has the sense to not take 3s even though he is a far better shooter than Smith. you also won't see him trying to lead the fast break.

Amare is a 4 time All-Star. Smith has a long way to go to make one All-Star team.

Edited May 22, 2009 by exodus

[gsuteke]

I don't see Sund making any major moves , especially involving Smith.

[Joker]

Do you really think all steals are from gambling? you don't think any of them are actually on the ball?

The Suns 11th in the NBA in rebounding. The Hawks were 25th. It is a lot easier to get rebounds on a team that sucks at rebounding. Amare's rebounding rate this season was the worst of his career but it was still better than Smiths.

You want more stats? Amare's PER of 20.39 was 6th in the NBA among 4s even though it was his worst number since his rookie year. Smith was 19th. amare's efficiency rating of 22.92 was 13th in the NBA. Smith's rating of 17.9 was 54th.The Suns also gave up 4.5 ppg less when Amare was playing.

Amare has the sense to not take 3s even though he is a far better shooter than Smith. you also won't see him trying to lead the fast break.

Amare is a 4 time All-Star. Smith has a long way to go to make one All-Star team.

He doesn't have along way to go to be honest. I will say this, Josh is not far from Amare, but Amare is such an offensive gem and we need a #1 scorer. We need someone who can play Center too, that is why Amare is a better choice for us.

[gsuteke]

I think we've all seen that if the Hawks are going to be championship caliber they need two star players on offense, and Joe is really a #2 on a championship squad.

I dunno. I say the Hawks should stand pat and try to talk some sense into Smoove's skull.

[Joker]

I believe this trade: Amare for Smith, and Bosh for Hinrich/Thomas are going to happen. The Bosh trade on draft night and the Amare/Smith trade during FA. I think what the Hawks and Suns would like to do a S&T Marvin for Hill and a future 1st (2010 or later) with the Amare deal. We can't trade Josh till July 1 and can only trade Marvin if it's a S&T. This is shaping up to be interesting offseason for big time players.

I believe the Hawks should draft a PF like Hansbrough with their pick. We need more depth off the bench, especially at PF. I believe Acie will stay pat.

I also believe we will do a S&T for Felton. We will trade David Andersen rights with Speedy. I believe we will sign Childress back as well as Zaza.

This will give us experience, depth, and young quality talent, which the players can all play their roles. We will resign M. West and O. Hunter back to min contracts.

Felton/Acie

JJ/Childress/West

Grant Hill/Mo

Horford/Hansbrough/Hunter

Amare/Zaza/Morris

Edited May 22, 2009 by nbasuperstar40

[TheFormerJJBacker]

Howdy -

As the guy FROM PHOENIX - I consider myself the best person to comment on Amare...

(for those of you that don't know the story - I live in Phoenix... had season tix for Suns with my dad since I started college... loved Colangelo... hate Robert Sarver... Joe was my fav Sun... 04-05 year was magic... Sarver screwed the team up.... I began cheering for the Hawks and Joe as an FU to Sarver... I'm guessing he doesn't care)...

I'll be honest - I didn't read through this entire thread because the four pages was a little daunting. A few things I noticed -

Hotlanta's comment about "didn't he just destroy Tim Duncan a few years ago" (or something to that affect... My Answer:

Yes - that was before micro fracture and before the detached retina situation he's got going on...

Another person talked about how the Suns gave up 5 more points after he was hurt - um that coincides with the Alvin Gentry regime (the one in which the Suns said - oh well.. I guess we're not good defensively... sorry Terry Porter... I guess we'll just go back to the run-n-gun Suns that D'Antoni had us being)... the 5 extra points per game after his injury had nothing to do with Amare... it had everything to do with the Suns trying to focus on defense under Porter (which didn't really work well anyway); and then not caring about defense at all once Gentry took over. So let's not try to attach bump in opponents ppg to the lack of Amare playing d.

Then the thread seemed to turn into a "who would you rather have - JSmoove or STAT" type deal... here's my comparison - because I've had the luxury of watching both for years now...

Amare:

1) Let's remember the microfracture. He was an absolute beast before the surgery. He was easily a top PF in the NBA (only KG and Duncan were even on the same planet). He had the surgery and essentially missed the entire next season. He used his down time to work on his jumper - which has improved by leaps and bounds since he was a rook. But his knee is a problem. He's never been the same since he came back. Don't get me wrong - he's still a top PF in the NBA.. but he's not the "strike fear into any opponent" player he used to be.

2) He does not want to play Center. People keep talking about how he could play PF or C... he doesn't want to play C. He complained about it constantly when D'Antoni was the coach... even though it gave him a huge advantage offensively. Again - he does not want to play center. In fact after he changed his jersey number to 1 he talked about becoming more of a small forward. Um yes - he wanted to turn into a perimeter force and the number one dealt with his "Teach One, Know One" mantra.

3) His eye. I work with a woman that has a detached retina and her doctor is partners with Amare's doctor. I know for a fact that dude has had a second surgery on his eye already (the Suns aren't talking about it, though) because the first attempt didn't allow everything to re-connect properly. Detached retinas often take up to 2 years to fully heal and have a doctor say "ok - you're back to normal... feel free to resume normal activity." All the running, jumping, bumping, etc. in the NBA - this guy will have issues with this injury again. At this point - he's not actually able to run or ride a bike because everything is still healing. I'll reiterate - detached retinas ain't nothing to eff with.

4) He's obviously a tremendous force offensively - if you keep him happy. He needs his touches. If he doesn't get his touches (even if the team is doing well) he begins to pout and mentally checks out of games - he begins committing silly fouls, getting T's for bitching, etc... EVEN WHEN HIS TEAM IS DOING WELL. His knee injury has forced him to become a better outside player (the anti-Kenyon Martin, if you will). His stroke is pure. He draws a lot of contact. He gets the opposition into foul trouble, etc. He's probably still (after injury) one the top finishers in the game. He gets tons of And Ones... He's a stud. You will not hear me ever say that offensively he's no good. He's great offensively. He's not particularly good with his back to the basket - that would probably be his only weakness offensively. He's fast, he can shoot (and his range continues to improve to a point that I would not be surprised if he becomes a legit 3 pt threat over a course of time). Despite the fact detractors want to say "he needs a great PG" - he actually doesn't. Yes - he got tons of points out of pick and rolls with Nash... but he's so good - he can get the points no matter who the PG is. Another "weakness" for him is he pretty much has to be the only guy on the block. He couldn't co-exist with Boris after STAT came back from microfracture... and he seemed to struggle this year with Shaq around (despite going insane at the end of the 08 season after the acquisition of Shaq and put up reeeeeeee-diculous numbers over the last 2 months of the season).

5) Attitude and Defense are his two biggest weaknesses. You think Smith is a knucklehead? You ain't seen nothing yet. You think Smith whines? Again - you ain't seen whining yet. Amare is a grade-A douche. He's good. But he's a punk. He has no interest in rebounding on a consistent basis (he'll have some games or stretches where he puts up good rebounding numbers after enough people b*tch at him or he's cranky about something)... but ask anyone what watches entire Suns games on a consistent basis. Honestly - I saw on this thread where someone said - "you always hate your own players but you think someone elses players are so tight" or something like that and it's completely true.

As Hawks fans - you're watching every minute of every Hawks game. You're seeing everything. Every bad pass, every time a guy mails it in, every half where someone seems completely disinterested... but for opposing players you see them play a whole game a few times a year... and the rest is nothing but highlights. If you had the time... you could create a mix of most of players in the NBA making them look great... and a mix where you take out all of the good plays and only show misses, or disinterest, or pouting, etc...

My dad never watches the Hawks - but if you say Josh Smith - he instantly wants to talk about dunks or blocked shots, etc... (although the last few years he's begun asking me "why do they let him dribble or shoot?"... so he's beginning to learn). Likewise - take it from a guy that watches Amare all the time - dude does not want to get dirty. AT ALL.

He's not going to box out. He's not going to scrap. He's not going to battle for position. All he'll do is yell around at other players when his man gets a rebound and a put back. He will get a few weak side blocks a game - but never on his own man... He doesn't defend the pick and roll at all. He doesn't guard well on the perimeter. He used to be such a freak athletically that he could recover - but not really anymore. He'll flop around... or argue about calls... get T'd up, etc... but he's definitely not a lunch pail to work every day kinda ball player.

6) You have to feed the beast. He needs to be the best player on the team. He's not that interested in winning - he just wants the team to be "his team." He got annoyed this season because the media was focusing on LeBron, DWade and Bosh in terms of the big 2010 free agents - and didn't mention him. He blamed this on the Suns for not making the Suns "his team." He talked about how he wants to have a team the same way LeBron and DWade do, etc... but lamented that the Suns were "Shaq's team." If he's not getting shots he complains of being underutilized (which I actually don't mind because superstars should want the ball)... but he actually pouts about it on the court. He and Nash bicker almost nightly about spacing, etc. If he's not the star - he checks out of the game... even in some situations to draw fouls so he can go sit on the bench.

I'm totally serious. Dude will get so mad - he will purposely commit fouls so that he can go sit down.

Simply put - he's really good offensively - but he's very tough to root for. He's just an a**hole. Add that to the health concerns (knee and retina - the eye injury btw - is going to force him to wear goggles for the rest of his career)... I'm not sure why some are so hyped about him... I mean this is a guy that just this week came out talking about how the Suns better show they're trying to win a championship or he wants out... yet he was injured for almost the last 2 months of the season...

7) Salary update:

In 09/10 he'll be making $16,378,325

He has a player option for 10/11 (that most assume he'll opt out of and become a FA after the 2010 season) in which he'd get paid $17,686,100

Next year - JSmoove will make $10.8 million.

I guess the way I look at it -

Josh is 3 years younger than Amare

Josh pouts - but not as much as Amare

Amare is waaaaaaaaay further advanced offensively than Smoove

Smoove does waaaaaaaay more defensively (although I'm still waiting for Smoove to make the leap and become more consistent with his defense and rebounding)

I'd keep Smith over getting Amare... and I'd rather have Bosh over Amare. And I'd rather have Joe over Amare.

Amare (until some day when he grows up) has a cancerous attitude. He's never happy. And he doesn't care about winning - despite his quotes. He wants to get buckets. That's it.

He may look good from your seats in the east coast... but I guarantee you people would turn on him within a year. There might be a honeymoon period for a while... but after that wore off.... hawksquawk would be killing that dude. Joe gets killed on this board and all he does is show up, play, practice, and get his quiet on.

I'd love to see how much hate Amare gets lol.

Mark

[TheFormerJJBacker]

And he's supposed to be a leader of a team, but he's talking about "hey atlanta hawks - you need amare" or something to that effect? If he really wants the Suns to be "his team" shouldn't he act like it and say something like "watch out for them Suns next year" or something?

I'd love to see what happens on this board if he is a Hawk and is on the radio in LA when he still has 2 years left in Atlanta and says - "hey Lakers you need Amare"

Again - I can't emphasize this enough - he's a punk.

[Joker]

JJBacker, you really didn't say anything I didn't know. That's why I'm slightly at odds. Nonetheless, Josh Smith is the same way but not to Amare degree. In Atlanta, he will be the star and the number 1 option. He really is not playing the true Center role, he will split assignments off switches with Horford. Both Amare and Smith are primadonnas. Amare is a much bigger one, but if he has his way to a degree then he should get it. Atlanta locker room vibe is much to Amare personality than Phoenix's one. We need a #1, we need a guy who can play Center, even if he doesn't like it, he is interchangable at PF or C on this team. The contract is what scares me, the mircofracture took away his rare elite athleticism but he still has a high skill level and the offensive side of the game comes naturally for him. He is like Carmelo in that sense, except at PF/C. Of course, if we bring in Amare then we need to bring in leader to further gel our squad.

[Flight]

I like Amare and since Phoenix is going into a rebuilding stage maybe they would deal him for Acie,19th pick,Speedy and rights to J-Chillz?

[MaceCase]

JJBACKER is fully on the money. We are stuck in a "grass is greener" situation that has people jumping to irational conclusions. I remember watching Gametime during the season when C-Webb was discussing Amar'e's DEMANDS to be the man in Pheonix. Webber said it best that you can't demand to be treated like the best player on the team as a big man without averaging ten rebounds. You may not get your touches on offense but that shouldn't prevent you from crashing the boards. You look at a guy like Dwight Howard come out and complain in these playoffs about not being the focus late in games but that hasn't prevented him hitting the boards each and every time down even if it means he won't get it back. Amar'e wants to be pampered and when he's not he tunes himself out of the game completely, he's just so scary good that he could put up stats regardless of his effort. That simply is not the type of player I'm trying to trade Josh for, it's the equivalent of trading a headache for a migraine. That is why I ask why people are not making the same arguments to get Zach Randolph on our team. He's just as good a scorer, ACTUALLY GETS 10 REBOUNDS A GAME, and plays with his back to the basket which is what we need instead of a taller Josh Smith with a jumpshot.

[Diesel]

I can't belive this is still going on??

Amare is good. Amare has some concering Injuries. I say this as a guy who wanted Amare right out of High School: I like him a lot, but it would be a mistake to trade Josh Smith for him.

Point #1.

Amare is making 16 then 17 Million over the next 2, then he's a FA. And the 17 million is a players option... So he can opt out just in time for the 2010 makeover.

Smoove is signed for the next 4 years at no more than 13 Million.

We have a very good contract on Smoove.

Point #2.

We have only seen Smoove under One coach. In Woody's offensiveless system, who knows what Amare would be. In a structured system, who knows what Smoove could be.

Point #3.

Amare has major injuries Smoove has none.

Point #4.

Smoove may be the better defensive player.

Point #5.

You ought to think long and hard before giving up Homegrown talent.