Marvin = Capable of more

[Diesel]

So losing by a point in one of the toughest places to play in the league to a team that made the WCF means that Marvin dropping 31 shooting 59% from the field, 10-10 from the line wasn't really stepping up when others were out? OK

It's great that you can only point to 3 maybe 4 games out of 82 where Marvin asserted himself and made a difference. Or did he make a difference? Still 4 out of 82... or maybe in 12 in 4 years.

The point is that he hasn't shown much of anything...even in his contract year.

[Buzzard]

Let me start a wild Marvin thread for once.

To me, the most valid point anywhere in the other thread is that Marvin exists as a 3rd or 4th option in the offense, whereas a guy like Deng is at least one spot up in the pecking order on his team. I submit that Marvin plays his role well, and has shown he can step up when others are down.

To wit, I gathered Marvin's stats for each game in which at least one of JJ, MB, or JS were out or were held to 5 points or less. That gave me 24 games to work with, a pretty decent sample. Marvin's scoring average in those 24 games = 16.5ppg! Or, basically the same as Deng.

I bet some of his other numbers are better as well, but I'll let anyone else who has time take a shot at that.

[set of games I used: November 9,11,12,14,15,18,19,22,26,28,29; December 10; January 25,26,28; February 4,6,7,11,23,25,27; March 4; April 14]

That is a really good post and thanks for the work. The only people doubting Marvin as a team player is a few haters. I really think we have a close knit group; and Marvin not being a blow hard even after he was drafted 2nd is a pretty good character trait that his teammates appreciate.

[exodus]

It's great that you can only point to 3 maybe 4 games out of 82 where Marvin asserted himself and made a difference. Or did he make a difference? Still 4 out of 82... or maybe in 12 in 4 years.

The point is that he hasn't shown much of anything...even in his contract year.

So improving his finishing rate by 10% inside in two years isn't showing anything? Going from 1/10 from 3 to 55/155 from 3 in one year isn't showing anything? Stepping up his scoring when other key guys were out wasn't showing anything?

No matter what Marvin does you will continue to dog him. That much is clear. You can't even admit he stepped up in the Denver game. That is proof enough.

[Diesel]

That is a really good post and thanks for the work. The only people doubting Marvin as a team player is a few haters. I really think we have a close knit group; and Marvin not being a blow hard even after he was drafted 2nd is a pretty good character trait that his teammates appreciate.

I don't think that anybody ever doubt that Marvin was a team player. I would even call him selfless. However, I am not going to sit here and make excuses for his lack of aggression. Our team needs scoring and rebounding. It's the two stats that are the most obvious when we lose... Where's his team play then?

[Diesel]

So improving his finishing rate by 10% inside in two years isn't showing anything? Going from 1/10 from 3 to 55/155 from 3 in one year isn't showing anything? Stepping up his scoring when other key guys were out wasn't showing anything?

No matter what Marvin does you will continue to dog him. That much is clear. You can't even admit he stepped up in the Denver game. That is proof enough.

I can have a car that is very efficient and get 800 miles per tank of gas. However, if the furtherest I ever take it is to the corner store, does any of that efficiency even matter?

Marvin has increased stats that we could probably make an argument that they increased because of the increase of talent around him. When you're not the focus of the defenses schemes then you better be efficient. Your 3 pt% better go up. Your fininshing rate better increase. However, how far are you taking the car? Marvin is not driving us to wins. Based on last years stats, he's not even making us better than if we had a Journeyman replacing him. THAT IS THE FACT.

BY the way, I admit that Marvin stepped up in the Denver game... So did horf and JJ didn't do bad. However, that's one game Ex. Like I said, you maybe have 12 of those you can point to over the past 4 years. Maybe less than 12. Again... What difference does that make?

Edited July 25, 2009 by Diesel

[exodus]

I can have a car that is very efficient and get 800 miles per tank of gas. However, if the furtherest I ever take it is to the corner store, does any of that efficiency even matter?

Marvin has increased stats that we could probably make an argument that they increased because of the increase of talent around him. When you're not the focus of the defenses schemes then you better be efficient. Your 3 pt% better go up. Your fininshing rate better increase. However, how far are you taking the car? Marvin is not driving us to wins. Based on last years stats, he's not even making us better than if we had a Journeyman replacing him. THAT IS THE FACT.

BY the way, I admit that Marvin stepped up in the Denver game... So did horf and JJ didn't do bad. However, that's one game Ex. Like I said, you maybe have 12 of those you can point to over the past 4 years. Maybe less than 12. Again... What difference does that make?

What difference did it make when Smith scored 30 or more 5 times in the 07-08 season? Using your logic It didn't make any difference because the Hawks lost each one.

But if you are looking at overall play Marvin set career highs in rebounding, finishing inside and 3 pt shooting. Last summer you were going on and on about Marvin's lack of 3 pt shooting but now that he has shown the ability to hit 3s i sure dont see you giving him any credit for it. it isn't the talent around him that made him go from 1-10 from 3 to 55-155 from 3.

[Diesel]

What difference did it make when Smith scored 30 or more 5 times in the 07-08 season? Using your logic It didn't make any difference because the Hawks lost each one.

But if you are looking at overall play Marvin set career highs in rebounding, finishing inside and 3 pt shooting. Last summer you were going on and on about Marvin's lack of 3 pt shooting but now that he has shown the ability to hit 3s i sure dont see you giving him any credit for it. it isn't the talent around him that made him go from 1-10 from 3 to 55-155 from 3.

No. You misunderstand.

I'm not saying what difference to that game does it make or even that season. I'm saying what difference does it make for Marvin. JSmoove has shown that he can score and he's willing to take a game over to the best of his ability. So have many other guys who have played hard in losing efforts. However, Marvin has showed very little interest in taking over games. He's like a homeowner who has a gun locked in a closet, locked in a cabinet, locked in a lock box, with a trigger lock on it. When the thieves break in, that owner is not going to do anything. The same is true with Marvin. He has all this potential, however, he's missing the aggression to do anything with it. That has always been.

[exodus]

No. You misunderstand.

I'm not saying what difference to that game does it make or even that season. I'm saying what difference does it make for Marvin. JSmoove has shown that he can score and he's willing to take a game over to the best of his ability. So have many other guys who have played hard in losing efforts. However, Marvin has showed very little interest in taking over games. He's like a homeowner who has a gun locked in a closet, locked in a cabinet, locked in a lock box, with a trigger lock on it. When the thieves break in, that owner is not going to do anything. The same is true with Marvin. He has all this potential, however, he's missing the aggression to do anything with it. That has always been.

Marvin has been far more assertive than Childress ever was but i don't remember you EVER criticizing Childress for never taking over a game. In fact Childress was notorious for his late game blunders and choking at the line but never a critical word from you. Just another example of your hypocrisy, as if we needed any more.

And i don't see how Marvin has such great potential either. It isn't like he has the talent of Vince or Tmac who can take over games easily.

[Diesel]

Marvin has been far more assertive than Childress ever was but i don't remember you EVER criticizing Childress for never taking over a game. In fact Childress was notorious for his late game blunders and choking at the line but never a critical word from you. Just another example of your hypocrisy, as if we needed any more.

And i don't see how Marvin has such great potential either. It isn't like he has the talent of Vince or Tmac who can take over games easily.

:laughing5:

You defend Marvin by talking about Childress?

Dude. That's funny.

:lol6:

[exodus]

:laughing5:

You defend Marvin by talking about Childress?

Dude. That's funny.

:lol6:

What's funny are your double standards. When Childress scores effeciently it is a good thing but when Marvin does it then it is a bad thing. You can't have it both ways.

[Diesel]

What's funny are your double standards. When Childress scores effeciently it is a good thing but when Marvin does it then it is a bad thing. You can't have it both ways.

I guess we call this portion of the thread... The SUBJECT CHANGE... Just for a good Laugh at Ex, I'll play....

OK please tell me how Marvin is supposed to be compared to a role playing reserve?

I mean we picked him above Chris Paul. Allowed him to be a started for 3 years. Traded all sorts of players to "make room for him" And are on the brink of paying him more than any 4th option in the History of basketball has ever made... so that we can make a strong comparison to a guy who was a role playing reserve and would have made about 2 Million less than Marvin is about to make had we made him an offer.

This is the comparison that you use to Justify Marvin?

:question:

[exodus]

I guess we call this portion of the thread... The SUBJECT CHANGE... Just for a good Laugh at Ex, I'll play....

OK please tell me how Marvin is supposed to be compared to a role playing reserve?

I mean we picked him above Chris Paul. Allowed him to be a started for 3 years. Traded all sorts of players to "make room for him"

Speaking of subject changes what to the draft and Chris Paul have to do with this thread?

And are on the brink of paying him more than any 4th option in the History of basketball has ever made.

I love how you just make stuff up and pretend it is true. Ben Wallet was probably the 12th option in Chicago .

This is the comparison that you use to Justify Marvin?

I am not bringing up Childress to justify Marvin. I am doing it to point out your double standards.

[thefloydian]

[txsting]

I guess it's how you look at it, but to me it's not much of a compliment to Marvin. Basically if we had worse players he would score on average 2 points more a game. Is that really a compliment? It's not like we have one of the best teams in the league, but if we were had fewer good players Marvin would score a little bit more on average. I'm glad our purpose as a franchise isn't to see how high we could get Marvin's scoring average to go. Perhaps we should just trade away all of our good players except Marvin to see if he could score even more.

I see it as a compliment because Marvin just doesn't get many shots in the offense. Joe is touching the ball on almost every possession and does a fair amount of dribbling. Mike shoots any open look he gets (not that he shouldn't), or is otherwise waiting for an opportunity to get the ball over the Joe. 20% more scoring, to me, is a significant bump. Marvin could choose to continue to defer to guys like Flip and Horford in those situations, but he clearly doesn't.

Whatever opportunities Marvin does get, he converts with good efficiency. He only had a few games where multiple scorers were out, but in those he really put up some big numbers. I didn't want to mention that because of the low sample size - it's not a point I can readily defend but I'll toss it out there.

Anyway, I do agree if Marvin was more assertive, he could capture more of the offensive load for himself. This is his weakness, to be sure. But I was encouraged by his progress last year, and expect more in the future. I hope we can resign him long term for 6-7M average per year.

[Diesel]

I am not bringing up Childress to justify Marvin. I am doing it to point out your double standards.

So when faced with the inadequacies of Marvin.. in a thread about Marvin... you want to make the subject Diesel....

I'll just take that to mean that you have no real answer.

You're the guy who probably flunked the SAT and blamed the test and the testing method right?

Cheated on your wife and blamed the institute of marriage. Said that man is not supposed to be married... blah blah blah?

Failed to pay your taxes and gave a speech about how the Constitution was written by corrupt, immoral men??

Here's the problem Ex...

Everybody knows bullsh*t when they see it.

[exodus]

So when faced with the inadequacies of Marvin.. in a thread about Marvin... you want to make the subject Diesel....

I'll just take that to mean that you have no real answer.

You're the guy who probably flunked the SAT and blamed the test and the testing method right?

Cheated on your wife and blamed the institute of marriage. Said that man is not supposed to be married... blah blah blah?

Failed to pay your taxes and gave a speech about how the Constitution was written by corrupt, immoral men??

Here's the problem Ex...

Everybody knows bullsh*t when they see it.

Which is why there were so many people cosigning my petition to ban you from starting Marvin threads. You have no credibility on the subject at all.

Mavin simply isn't as talented or as athletic as people thought before he was drafted. He doesn't have the ability to be a star. I am not blaming anyone for that.

I am blaming you for judging him based on the 2005 draft which is over. You are still holding him to the standard of being picked ahead of Paul and Deron even though there is not a GM in the league who would pick Marvin over those two if the draft was done over. Marvin doesn't have the talent to justify it. The guy who drafted Marvin is gone. Get over it.

[Diesel]

Which is why there were so many people cosigning my petition to ban you from starting Marvin threads. You have no credibility on the subject at all.

Mavin simply isn't as talented or as athletic as people thought before he was drafted. He doesn't have the ability to be a star. I am not blaming anyone for that.

I am blaming you for judging him based on the 2005 draft which is over. You are still holding him to the standard of being picked ahead of Paul and Deron even though there is not a GM in the league who would pick Marvin over those two if the draft was done over. Marvin doesn't have the talent to justify it. The guy who drafted Marvin is gone. Get over it.

I guess this is the SECOND SUBJECT CHANGE....

Now you're trying to make this only about Marvin picked behind Paul and DW...

:bedtime2:

I'm sleep.

Maybe you can try to get back to the point that there has only been AT most 12 games where Marvin has stepped up and been our goto guy in his career.

remember, the title is Marvin = capable of More?

Not Marvin vs. Chillz.

Not Diesel's view of Marvin vs. Chillz.

Not Anybody's talk about Marvin being picked before paul.

Right now, you're attempt to evade the subject is embarrassing.

[thefloydian]

Right now, you're attempt to evade the subject is embarrassing.

This whole thread is embarrassing.

[exodus]

I guess this is the SECOND SUBJECT CHANGE....

Now you're trying to make this only about Marvin picked behind Paul and DW...

:bedtime2:

I'm sleep.

Maybe you can try to get back to the point that there has only been AT most 12 games where Marvin has stepped up and been our goto guy in his career.

remember, the title is Marvin = capable of More?

Not Marvin vs. Chillz.

Not Diesel's view of Marvin vs. Chillz.

Not Anybody's talk about Marvin being picked before paul.

Right now, you're attempt to evade the subject is embarrassing.

Who was it that brought up Chris Paul and the draft?

Interesting that you talk about changing the subject. Here was your first post in the thread.

It's good to know that the excuse machine still works. I thought Lebron had broken it.

I fail to see how that relates to the initial post of the thread.

Edited July 25, 2009 by exodus

[Diesel]

Who was it that brought up Chris Paul and the draft?

That was only in response to your childress subject change... I just qualified exactly who Marvin is... .

It's interesting that you're so one tracked that you can't even remember the previous conversation. Is this more dodging or is this waffling?