Marvin = Capable of more

[Diesel]

Hmmm so all those guys are jumpshooters like I said but now you want to make the argument 3 point jumpshooters. lacing up those tap shoes nicely I see.

Let's take a moment and read an excerpt from Hollinger's report on Marvin before the season started:

You mock what you don't understand my friend.

The comedy that you bring. All of those guys are jumpshooters? Maybe. However, Marvin still doesn't fit with those guys and never has. The thing you miss is that the jumpershooter is really defined by how well he can hit the outside shot. Am I wrong? Did you really consider Glenn Robinson a JUMPSHOOTER? Glenn Robinson had an picture perfect midrange game, but was never considered a JUMPSHOOTER because he was not a three point shooter. Marvin falls into the category that Glenn Robinson and Antwain Jamison falls. He plays in the midrange. Or at least he has all his career until last year. Still, do you expect Hawksquawk to believe that Woody looked at Marvin's 1 for 10 three point shooting from last year and said... you're going to be my three point shooter? You're great from outside? My offense doesn't work with your outside shooting?

Moreover, do you think that Marvin now fits in the category with those guys you have mentioned being that they all are accomplished 3 pter shooters or what you call JUMPSHOOTERS?

Now you've been the one trying to change the conversation, but back to the point. Do you think Marvin can create for himself? or better yet who cares what you think... Can Marvin create for himself? The numbers says No!

Based on what you have watched, Was I wrong in saying that last year all Marvin did was wait for somebody to pass him the ball?

You see Crawful, you build these molehills but the mountain is right there. Can you answer these direct questions honestly?

[MaceCase]

You mock what you don't understand my friend.

The comedy that you bring. All of those guys are jumpshooters? Maybe. However, Marvin still doesn't fit with those guys and never has. The thing you miss is that the jumpershooter is really defined by how well he can hit the outside shot. Am I wrong? Did you really consider Glenn Robinson a JUMPSHOOTER? Glenn Robinson had an picture perfect midrange game, but was never considered a JUMPSHOOTER because he was not a three point shooter. Marvin falls into the category that Glenn Robinson and Antwain Jamison falls. He plays in the midrange. Or at least he has all his career until last year. Still, do you expect Hawksquawk to believe that Woody looked at Marvin's 1 for 10 three point shooting from last year and said... you're going to be my three point shooter? You're great from outside? My offense doesn't work with your outside shooting?

Moreover, do you think that Marvin now fits in the category with those guys you have mentioned being that they all are accomplished 3 pter shooters or what you call JUMPSHOOTERS?

Now you've been the one trying to change the conversation, but back to the point. Do you think Marvin can create for himself? or better yet who cares what you think... Can Marvin create for himself? The numbers says No!

Based on what you have watched, Was I wrong in saying that last year all Marvin did was wait for somebody to pass him the ball?

You see Crawful, you build these molehills but the mountain is right there. Can you answer these direct questions honestly?

I liketa singa, I liketa dancea, I liketa singa when I dancea when I singa! Seems you are the mole abandoning the hill, or is rat jumping the sinking ship more approppriate?

So Hollinger goes out and says that nobody hit long twos at a better percentage than Marvin in the 07-08 season. Keep that in mind

long

two point

jumpshot.

So obviously he's hitting these shots at tremendous clip from good distance so the coach, whom also has to act as the talent evaluater, says "Marvin, boy you are smoothe from that distance but I challenge you to take a couple steps back and get that extra point boy. You'll only help spread thefloor even better for Joe and give yourself more versatility."

Again what does Marvin do? He comes back with a 3point shot and you keep claiming he can't create for himself but apparently as Hollinger is shocked as well is a jumpshooter with a lower assisted shot percentage than almost any other pure jumpshooter etting to the line more times per shot attempt than most of our teams.

:line dance: :line dance: :line dance:

[gsuteke]

this thread hasn't died yet?

[Diesel]

I liketa singa, I liketa dancea, I liketa singa when I dancea when I singa! Seems you are the mole abandoning the hill, or is rat jumping the sinking ship more approppriate?

I asked two direct questions. What do I get? Avoidance and some cheap song and dance... Smells like Cowardice to me?

[exodus]

You mock what you don't understand my friend.

The comedy that you bring. All of those guys are jumpshooters? Maybe. However, Marvin still doesn't fit with those guys and never has. The thing you miss is that the jumpershooter is really defined by how well he can hit the outside shot. Am I wrong? Did you really consider Glenn Robinson a JUMPSHOOTER? Glenn Robinson had an picture perfect midrange game, but was never considered a JUMPSHOOTER because he was not a three point shooter. Marvin falls into the category that Glenn Robinson and Antwain Jamison falls. He plays in the midrange. Or at least he has all his career until last year. Still, do you expect Hawksquawk to believe that Woody looked at Marvin's 1 for 10 three point shooting from last year and said... you're going to be my three point shooter? You're great from outside? My offense doesn't work with your outside shooting?

Moreover, do you think that Marvin now fits in the category with those guys you have mentioned being that they all are accomplished 3 pter shooters or what you call JUMPSHOOTERS?

Here is your list

Ray Allen = 41% from 3 pt

Szerbiac = 41% from 3 pt

Luol Deng = 40% from 3 pt.

Peja = 38% from 3 pt.

Battier = 38% from 3 pt.

Jamison = 35% from 3pt (112 made)

Marvin = 35% from 3 pt (55 made).

Which player on this list made by far the fewest 3s this past season AND had a higher assisted percentage than Marvin?

[mrhonline]

Marvin certainly is assisted frequently on his shots, but that's because he's a solid jumpshooter. That's not a negative. What's more, his solid FT/FGA rate is evidence he can create his own shot when needed.

Is he an elite shot-creator? No way. Is that a prerequisite for paying him slightly over the MLE? Not in the slightest.

The two offensive skills I would like to see Marvin improve sooner than later are:

1. Aggressiveness (we all know this)

2. Creating for others (I'd like to see that AST% climb back up to 2006-7 levels).

Edited July 29, 2009 by mrhonline

[MaceCase]

I asked two direct questions. What do I get? Avoidance and some cheap song and dance... Smells like Cowardice to me?

HAHA let me correct you

I asked two direct questions. What did I choose to intrepret? The non answer to the non-existant point that I'm making...... Sounds like my song is coming on?

So I give you a bunch of jumpshooters like Marvin all with higher assisted shot percentages than Marvin and you tried to change the argument to its some smack in the face that a jumpshooter would be compared to a jumpshooter

So I compare Marvin to other SFs all with higher assisted shot percentages than Marvin including the player that he is supposed to be, Luol Deng, and I've yet to hear back on that one.

So we've proven that apparently even though he is a jumpshooter like others he is capable of creating his own offense more than the others considering he has a lower assisted shot percentage than them so what's your fabricated argument now? Can he become a ballhandling one on one playing G/F like the 6'6" Pierce and Caron rather than the 6'9" F that he is.

Edited July 29, 2009 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[AHF]

There's a whole lot of assumption in your statements AHF. For one, Marvin's aggressiveness REGRESSED from last year to this year. Think about that. Marvin was our highest draft pick ever. We were awaiting a break out year. He has shown "Flashes" of being able to break out. Then all of the sudden, you think Woody commands Marvin to do LESS than what he has done before? You think that Woody has it out for Marvin because in the midst of Marvin's development, Woody tells Marvin to be less agressive and less of a scorer?

Come on man.

Even you don't believe that crap. IF Marvin were capable of more, Woody wouldn't dare hold him back. How many times did we see the offense give Marvin opportunity after opportunity to get it going only to see him defer. That's not by design, that's by choice. As much pressure as Woody has been under to make Marvin look good, he'd be a fool to limit Marvin when Marvin is showing signs of turning the corner. Especially under a new GM.

By that rationale, Woodson must have asked the following players to do less or their aggressiveness must have regressed since their 2008-09 scoring went down by the following percentage (2008-09 scoring/2007-08 scoring):

Mo Evans 77%

Josh Smith 91%

Marvin Williams 94%

Joe Johnson 98%

The fact that we saw more scoring from Bibby, Horford, and Zaza relative to 2007-08 and added a chucker in Flip was irrelevant. These guys all saw their aggressiveness decline or were told to become less aggressive.

Or maybe their scoring dipped as we saw more involvement from other players and thus their role change very slightly (other than Mo whose role changed more coming into Atlanta in a reserve role).

[Diesel]

Marvin certainly is assisted frequently on his shots, but that's because he's a solid jumpshooter. That's not a negative. What's more, his solid FT/FGA rate is evidence he can create his own shot when needed.

Is he an elite shot-creator? No way. Is that a prerequisite for paying him slightly over the MLE? Not in the slightest.

The two offensive skills I would like to see Marvin improve sooner than later are:

1. Aggressiveness (we all know this)

2. Creating for others (I'd like to see that AST% climb back up to 2006-7 levels).

I respect your honest and non-avoidance of the subject.

Now let's Jump in.

First off...

The fact that Marvin's offense is a by-product of Joe/Bibby/Smoove's is concerning to me. What has not been stated but is true based on the facts that you have mentioned is the fact that defenses do not gameplan to stop Marvin. Defenses gameplan to stop Joe and Bibby and once in a while Smoove. However, Marvin is not significant in a defensive gameplan. Hence, Marvin's efficiency is also a by-product of the fact that he plays with good offensive players. The question is what happens when there aren't good offensive players around to protect him? That's not 8 million dollars.

We all hope (even Woodson) that Marvin would become more aggressive. I think that more than anything is why Marvin is our fourth option. Sure he has better natural ability that Josh Smith (as for as shooting)... however, he doesn't have the aggressiveness to be more than he is. He's content. It's not due to coaching or gameplan that Marvin is what he is. It's due to the fact that Marvin is content being 4th option. You guys call that being a team player... however, what that really is is underachieving. And there are just enough excuses on this board and other place to keep him underachieving for the rest of his career.

[txsting]

this thread hasn't died yet?

I've abandoned it but still have to check in to see the carnage. Diesel laid out a bunch of trash regarding assisted % and 3pt shooting, but he did make one decent point in the whole thread. That being, if you plug in Butler or Pierce at SF, are they still a 3rd/4th option based on the system?

And he's right on that for what it's worth, but it's kind of an obvious point. If you plug in an All-star at SF, then obviously you rework the system to get him shots. Marv is the 3rd or 4th best scorer on this team, therefore he gets in where he fits in. I'm not saying Marv's an All-star in the making or anything, just that he plays his role extremely well and shows considerable upside to his game (i.e. "capable of more"). Those points, IMO, are completely intact after the first 6 pages of discussion.

Edited July 29, 2009 by txsting

[AHF]

The reason Marvin is what he is a product of two things:

(a) Marvin isn't aggressive enough to go "get his" on offense;

and

(b) Woodson tells him to hit jumpers and drive the ball and that is exactly what he does. Woodson does not run plays for him and Marvin doesn't look to create for himself.

It is not an either/or situation. Marvin is a guy who will be content to play his role and do what he is told in the offense. If he is told to do more (see when JJ is out), he will do more. If he is told to do less, he will do less. He does not force the action and takes what comes in the flow of the game.

[Diesel]

HAHA let me correct you

So I give you a bunch of jumpshooters like Marvin all with higher assisted shot percentages than Marvin and you tried to change the argument to its some smack in the face that a jumpshooter would be compared to a jumpshooter

I didn't change the argument. I showed you how those Jumpshooters were WORLDS better than Marvin. Period. I used a common standard (three point shooting) to prove my point.

If I show you that it's an insult for Marvin to be categorized with Ray Allen, Wally Z, Peja, and some of the best 3 pt shooters in the game... how is that changing the subject. These guys are assisted because as talented standstill three point shooters it's their JOB to hit the wide open shot. However, Marvin is not a talented 3 pt shooter. Until this season, Marvin was a laughingstock at the 3 pt line. So don't tell me that this is some Woody made Masterplan to have Marvin out on the 3 point line shooting threes. Woody would be a FOOL to gameplan a 10% 3 pt shooter to be his 3 pt specialist.

[Diesel]

The reason Marvin is what he is a product of two things:

(a) Marvin isn't aggressive enough to go "get his" on offense;

and

(b) Woodson tells him to hit jumpers and drive the ball and that is exactly what he does. Woodson does not run plays for him and Marvin doesn't look to create for himself.

It is not an either/or situation. Marvin is a guy who will be content to play his role and do what he is told in the offense. If he is told to do more (see when JJ is out), he will do more. If he is told to do less, he will do less. He does not force the action and takes what comes in the flow of the game.

This is true..

But just to add.

In our offense, My opinion is that Woody doesn't run plays for anybody. So to say that there's a system whereby Woody has placed Marvin on the three point line and said hit the open three is laughable. I think the truth is that it's more like Marvin has spots on the floor and he goes to his spot and he waits for somebody to throw the ball to him in his spot. That's why you see him heavily assisted on Jumpshots. Some have tried to make the case that we run an offense that has plays in it and has defined roles... That's laughable too. I think if people talked about what they see on the court instead of what they think should happen on the court, there would be a great agreement here. But it's laugh city to hear guys talk about their Utopian dreams for Marvin and the Hawks and totally miss the reality of the situation.

[Admin]

I didn't change the argument. I showed you how those Jumpshooters were WORLDS better than Marvin. Period. I used a common standard (three point shooting) to prove my point.

If I show you that it's an insult for Marvin to be categorized with Ray Allen, Wally Z, Peja, and some of the best 3 pt shooters in the game... how is that changing the subject. These guys are assisted because as talented standstill three point shooters it's their JOB to hit the wide open shot. However, Marvin is not a talented 3 pt shooter. Until this season, Marvin was a laughingstock at the 3 pt line. So don't tell me that this is some Woody made Masterplan to have Marvin out on the 3 point line shooting threes. Woody would be a FOOL to gameplan a 10% 3 pt shooter to be his 3 pt specialist.

So let me get this straight, you are of the opinion that Woody planned his offense for this season based solely on last year and not on any off-season improvements that the individual players made?

And WORLDS better than Marvin? Yeah Deng and his 7 3pt makes last year were certainly WORLDS better weren't they.

[exodus]

I respect your honest and non-avoidance of the subject.

Now let's Jump in.

First off...

The fact that Marvin's offense is a by-product of Joe/Bibby/Smoove's is concerning to me. .

you wouldn't be so concerned if you actually paid attention to the thread. The fact is that Marvin's scoring goes up significantly when at least one of Bibby/JJ/Smith is out or playing poorly.

One other point I didn't make: the flip side to Marvin's 16.5 (or 16.3) average when he has a bigger role, is that his scoring average was actually only 12.8 in the other 58 games. It's actually a larger effect than I stated before.

Now in response to your latest of several subject changes

I didn't change the argument. I showed you how those Jumpshooters were WORLDS better than Marvin. Period. I used a common standard (three point shooting) to prove my point.

But i thought it was assisted percentage that you were so concerned about. Another classic subject change by Diesel. Since now you are so concerned about 3 pt shooting how does Deng's name make your list since he made only 8 three pointers all last season?

Edited July 29, 2009 by exodus

[Admin]

This is true..

But just to add.

In our offense, My opinion is that Woody doesn't run plays for anybody. So to say that there's a system whereby Woody has placed Marvin on the three point line and said hit the open three is laughable. I think the truth is that it's more like Marvin has spots on the floor and he goes to his spot and he waits for somebody to throw the ball to him in his spot. That's why you see him heavily assisted on Jumpshots. Some have tried to make the case that we run an offense that has plays in it and has defined roles... That's laughable too. I think if people talked about what they see on the court instead of what they think should happen on the court, there would be a great agreement here. But it's laugh city to hear guys talk about their Utopian dreams for Marvin and the Hawks and totally miss the reality of the situation.

Do you understand the difference between putting players in certain positions on the floor and running plays for them? They are 2 different things ya know. It's quite believable to say that Woody knows where he wants his players to be even while believing that he doesn't have a grasp of what they should do after that.

[Diesel]

So let me get this straight, you are of the opinion that Woody planned his offense for this season based solely on last year and not on any off-season improvements that the individual players made?

And WORLDS better than Marvin? Yeah Deng and his 7 3pt makes last year were certainly WORLDS better weren't they.

No. I don't think Woody has a real offense.

Let me get this straight, you think that Woody has an offense with defined roles and plays?

How soon have we forgotten ISO JOE?

[Diesel]

Do you understand the difference between putting players in certain positions on the floor and running plays for them? They are 2 different things ya know. It's quite believable to say that Woody knows where he wants his players to be even while believing that he doesn't have a grasp of what they should do after that.

So let me get this straight.

You think that Woody game plans for Smoove to be open for the three point shot?

Don't forget, JSmoove is a 26% 3 pt shooter.

[Admin]

No. I don't think Woody has a real offense.

Let me get this straight, you think that Woody has an offense with defined roles and plays?

How soon have we forgotten ISO JOE?

Again you need to understand that "defined roles" and "plays" are 2 separate things. Plays cannot exist without defined roles but defined roles can certainly exist without plays. Do you think that it's just coincidence that the players start out in pretty much the same spot each and every time down the court?

[Admin]

So let me get this straight.

You think that Woody game plans for Smoove to be open for the three point shot?

Don't forget, JSmoove is a 26% 3 pt shooter.

I think that Woody allows Smoove the freedom to move out to the 3pt line. I think it's the defense that game plans for Smoove to be wide open for it.

Don't forget, the defense knows that JSmoove is a 26% 3 pt shooter.