Marvin = Capable of more

[exodus]

That was only in response to your childress subject change... I just qualified exactly who Marvin is... .

It's interesting that you're so one tracked that you can't even remember the previous conversation. Is this more dodging or is this waffling?

And my responses have been directed at your double standards. You have one standard for Marvin but a totally different standard for everyone else. That has always been the case. In a thread not long ago you were dogging Marvin having an assisted percentage of 70% (although it was in fact 68%). When it was pointed out that Smiths was high as well you said that didn't matter because he was already under contract. WTF that is just nonsensical double standards.

Your first post had no relevance to the initial post of the thread. In fact i dont think any of your posts have responded to the initial post.

You bring up the 2005 draft and Chris Paul and you accuse me of changing the subject. Typical.

The initial post pointed out that Marvin's scoring average was significantly higher when one of Bibby, Smith or JJ were out or ineffective scoring 5 pts or less. Do you plan on actually addressing this or are you going to continue to dodge the issue by talking about Chris Paul, the 2005 draft or fictional excuses machines?

[Buzzard]

Diesel, on 25 July 2009 - 03:25 PM, said:

I can have a car that is very efficient and get 800 miles per tank of gas. However, if the furtherest I ever take it is to the corner store, does any of that efficiency even matter?

Marvin has increased stats that we could probably make an argument that they increased because of the increase of talent around him. When you're not the focus of the defenses schemes then you better be efficient. Your 3 pt% better go up. Your fininshing rate better increase. However, how far are you taking the car? Marvin is not driving us to wins. Based on last years stats, he's not even making us better than if we had a Journeyman replacing him. THAT IS THE FACT.

BY the way, I admit that Marvin stepped up in the Denver game... So did horf and JJ didn't do bad. However, that's one game Ex. Like I said, you maybe have 12 of those you can point to over the past 4 years. Maybe less than 12. Again... What difference does that make?

What difference did it make when Smith scored 30 or more 5 times in the 07-08 season? Using your logic It didn't make any difference because the Hawks lost each one.

But if you are looking at overall play Marvin set career highs in rebounding, finishing inside and 3 pt shooting. Last summer you were going on and on about Marvin's lack of 3 pt shooting but now that he has shown the ability to hit 3s i sure dont see you giving him any credit for it. it isn't the talent around him that made him go from 1-10 from 3 to 55-155 from 3.

I have the Diesel dude on ignore ...so understand Ex this is to support your aurgument....where does the one game last year and 12 over 4 years come from when the 1st post in this thread showed this:

To me, the most valid point anywhere in the other thread is that Marvin exists as a 3rd or 4th option in the offense, whereas a guy like Deng is at least one spot up in the pecking order on his team. I submit that Marvin plays his role well, and has shown he can step up when others are down.

To wit, I gathered Marvin's stats for each game in which at least one of JJ, MB, or JS were out or were held to 5 points or less. That gave me 24 games to work with, a pretty decent sample. Marvin's scoring average in those 24 games = 16.5ppg! Or, basically the same as Deng.

Did the Diesel not read the very 1st post and see a sample size of 24 games in which he averaged the same PPG as a very good young small forward; while we had one of our 1st three scoring options either out or playing like crap? I think its hilarious that he talks about changing the subject and at the same time cannot remember the gist of the subject in the very first post....The gist of the thread is: Ol Marvin did ok picking up the load in 24 games last season while one of our top three scoring options was either out or playing like crap...Not just the Utah game lmao

Edited July 26, 2009 by Buzzard

[DrReality]

He is capable of more and that is a good thing. But it is time to put up or shut up. Gotta stay healthy

[NineOhTheRino]

He is capable of more and that is a good thing. But it is time to put up or shut up. Gotta stay healthy

And he has to start playing more than 2 quarters of basketball. His name should be Marvin "I earned my check" Williams because he pretty much calls it a night after his 13th point.

Edited July 26, 2009 by NineOhTheRino

[exodus]

And he has to start playing more than 2 quarters of basketball. His name should be Marvin "I earned my check" Williams because he pretty much calls it a night after his 13th point.

Marvin averaged 3.3 ppg in the 4th (roughly 1/4th of his points) and hit key threes late in several games. He averaged 1.5 foul shots in the 4th (1/3rd of his average).

http://www.82games.com/0809/QTR4S11.HTM

Might as well say JJ calls it a night after his 20th point.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If we're using this data set that the thread starter presented, these are Marvin's numbers:

16.3 ppg ( is what I came up with )

6.2 rebs

1.5 asst

0.8 blks

0.6 stls

46.3% FG

37.9% 3FG

85.1% FT

Very interesting numbers. I wonder what his PER and TENDEX numbers would be, with these stats?

Marvin is just consistent as hell. Nothing real spectacular . . just consistent. He had 2 games in that stretch in which he scored less than 10 points and 6 games in which he scores 20 points or more.

If I do have one major criticism of Woody, it's how the emphasis has seemed to be put to make Josh Smith a key offensive player, instead of Marvin. Josh has more of the desire to be great more than Marvin, there's no question about that. But as an offensive player, Marvin is the one with possibly more talent and skill to blossom into a good offensive option.

I keep going back to Andrei Kirilenko when describing Smith, but I think that comparison is correct. If Josh doesn't develop an inside game, or completely abandon his jumper, he's never going to get much better than he is right now. As much as people want to believe it, Smith will NEVER be a good jumpshooter ( i.e. - hit 40% of his jumpshots )

So in my mind, the guy to try to develop has always been Marvin, because he can play a perimeter wing position, and the post position ( high or low post ), although his post came is definitely as shaky as Smith's and Horford's at times.

LOL . . with Marvin being compared to Deng, it's mighty interesting to see what happened to Deng, once the Bulls added Rose. His numbers dropped across the board, even before the season-ending injury. Instead of the #2 option that he's been for the past 3 years ( and he was the #2 option folks ), he pretty much became the #3 option.

With Gordon now gone, he should go back being the #2 option, with Rose being "the man". Deng's numbers should rise because of Gordon's absence.

[NineOhTheRino]

Marvin averaged 3.3 ppg in the 4th (roughly 1/4th of his points) and hit key threes late in several games. He averaged 1.5 foul shots in the 4th (1/3rd of his average).

http://www.82games.com/0809/QTR4S11.HTM

Might as well say JJ calls it a night after his 20th point.

The fact that he averaged 3.3 ppg in the 4th doesn't tell the whole story. Yeah that's about 1/4 of his scoring average (which is mediocre) but the numbers lie in this case. What I see from Marvin is a guy that follows up a good 2nd half performance with 4 or 5 sub-par 2nd half performances. I think you would have to throw out a percentage (25% = 20 gms) of his best 4th quarters and an equal percentage of his worst 4th quarters then get the point average of the remaining numbers.

[Diesel]

Marvin averaged 3.3 ppg in the 4th (roughly 1/4th of his points) and hit key threes late in several games. He averaged 1.5 foul shots in the 4th (1/3rd of his average).

http://www.82games.com/0809/QTR4S11.HTM

Might as well say JJ calls it a night after his 20th point.

Uhm... 3.3 ppg is less than 2 baskets.

You're bragging about less than 2 baskets?

If it were a late game 3 pter (because Marvin has only had 1 game winning threes) then you're talking about the only bucket he has made in the quarter.

Thanks for trying to build that ant hill into a mountain!

[Admin]

Uhm... 3.3 ppg is less than 2 baskets.

You're bragging about less than 2 baskets?

If it were a late game 3 pter (because Marvin has only had 1 game winning threes) then you're talking about the only bucket he has made in the quarter.

Thanks for trying to build that ant hill into a mountain!

WOW talk about being a major hypocrite Diesel. In your Marvin failed thread you made a mountain out of a molehill out of Marvin being 2ppg (or 1 basket) lower than your standards for him and now you come back and argue that 2 baskets is not enough to make a mountain out of a molehill? Too funny.

[exodus]

Uhm... 3.3 ppg is less than 2 baskets.

You're bragging about less than 2 baskets?

If it were a late game 3 pter (because Marvin has only had 1 game winning threes) then you're talking about the only bucket he has made in the quarter.

Thanks for trying to build that ant hill into a mountain!

You should never post anything related to math because you don't understand it. What do you expect from a guy who averaged 14 ppg? Did you think he should be scoring 10 in the 4th quarter?

He scored almost exactly 1/4th of his points in the 4th QUARTER (ie 1/4th of the game). Trying to act like his scoring fell off in the 4th is ridiculous which is what 9 was trying to do.

And Marvin hit 3s at the end of several close games. Just because the hawks didn't win all of them or he didn't hit the winning basket doesn't mean he took the 4th quarter off.

[exodus]

The fact that he averaged 3.3 ppg in the 4th doesn't tell the whole story. Yeah that's about 1/4 of his scoring average (which is mediocre) but the numbers lie in this case. What I see from Marvin is a guy that follows up a good 2nd half performance with 4 or 5 sub-par 2nd half performances. I think you would have to throw out a percentage (25% = 20 gms) of his best 4th quarters and an equal percentage of his worst 4th quarters then get the point average of the remaining numbers.

I love how you just make stuff up and pretend it is true. Sorry but made up stats carry no weight.

[txsting]

If we're using this data set that the thread starter presented, these are Marvin's numbers:

16.3 ppg ( is what I came up with )

6.2 rebs

1.5 asst

0.8 blks

0.6 stls

46.3% FG

37.9% 3FG

85.1% FT

Very interesting numbers. I wonder what his PER and TENDEX numbers would be, with these stats?

Marvin is just consistent as hell. Nothing real spectacular . . just consistent. He had 2 games in that stretch in which he scored less than 10 points and 6 games in which he scores 20 points or more.

If I do have one major criticism of Woody, it's how the emphasis has seemed to be put to make Josh Smith a key offensive player, instead of Marvin. Josh has more of the desire to be great more than Marvin, there's no question about that. But as an offensive player, Marvin is the one with possibly more talent and skill to blossom into a good offensive option.

I keep going back to Andrei Kirilenko when describing Smith, but I think that comparison is correct. If Josh doesn't develop an inside game, or completely abandon his jumper, he's never going to get much better than he is right now. As much as people want to believe it, Smith will NEVER be a good jumpshooter ( i.e. - hit 40% of his jumpshots )

So in my mind, the guy to try to develop has always been Marvin, because he can play a perimeter wing position, and the post position ( high or low post ), although his post came is definitely as shaky as Smith's and Horford's at times.

LOL . . with Marvin being compared to Deng, it's mighty interesting to see what happened to Deng, once the Bulls added Rose. His numbers dropped across the board, even before the season-ending injury. Instead of the #2 option that he's been for the past 3 years ( and he was the #2 option folks ), he pretty much became the #3 option.

With Gordon now gone, he should go back being the #2 option, with Rose being "the man". Deng's numbers should rise because of Gordon's absence.

Thanks for running those #'s northcyde. Basically, it's just his scoring that increases, and maybe a few more assists.

This makes complete sense to me. With other scoring options out, Marvin picks up a few more shots in the offense. He CONVERTS those with the same (or slightly better) efficiency as he usually does, therefore his scoring average goes up. It's all about OPPORTUNITY. And he's got the ball in his hands a little more, so I'm not surprised to see a few more assists. It makes me think Marvin could take an even larger role if it were there for him. At some point in getting more shots you'd expect his efficiency to drop - but it has yet to happen. It means his game has room to grow.

One other point I didn't make: the flip side to Marvin's 16.5 (or 16.3) average when he has a bigger role, is that his scoring average was actually only 12.8 in the other 58 games. It's actually a larger effect than I stated before.

[Diesel]

WOW talk about being a major hypocrite Diesel. In your Marvin failed thread you made a mountain out of a molehill out of Marvin being 2ppg (or 1 basket) lower than your standards for him and now you come back and argue that 2 baskets is not enough to make a mountain out of a molehill? Too funny.

A standard.

A goal.

A place where he was expected to be.

In that case, there is no room for failure because this is where most agreed that he should be at the end of the season and he was not there.

However, Ex is talking about 3.3 points as if Marvin is taking over games and winning them down the stretch. 3.3 points in the 4th doesn't mean too much.

In fact... Of our players.

1. Johnson. 43% FG%. 6.2 points

2. Murray. 47% FG%. 4.4 points

3. Smith. 51% FG% 4.2 points

4. Bibby. 39% FG%. 3.4 points

5. Marvin = 42% FG%. 3.3 points

And now we have

Crawford: 46% FG%, 6.4 points...

And most of the board wants to bench Crawford in order to play Marvin??

[Admin]

A standard.

A goal.

A place where he was expected to be.

In that case, there is no room for failure because this is where most agreed that he should be at the end of the season and he was not there.

However, Ex is talking about 3.3 points as if Marvin is taking over games and winning them down the stretch. 3.3 points in the 4th doesn't mean too much.

In fact... Of our players.

1. Johnson. 43% FG%. 6.2 points

2. Murray. 47% FG%. 4.4 points

3. Smith. 51% FG% 4.2 points

4. Bibby. 39% FG%. 3.4 points

5. Marvin = 42% FG%. 3.3 points

And now we have

Crawford: 46% FG%, 6.4 points...

And most of the board wants to bench Crawford in order to play Marvin??

[exodus]

A standard.

A goal.

A place where he was expected to be.

In that case, there is no room for failure because this is where most agreed that he should be at the end of the season and he was not there.

However, Ex is talking about 3.3 points as if Marvin is taking over games and winning them down the stretch. 5.

Your reading comprehension is almost as bad as your math. All i said was that he scored 1/4th of his points in the 4th in response to 9s post. You are just making up stuff as usual. I never said anything about Marvin taking over games in the 4th.

Marvin doesn't disappear in the 4th (like 9 was claiming) and he doesn't take over in the 4th. He just plays like he nornally plays.

Crawford: 46% FG%, 6.4 points...

And most of the board wants to bench Crawford in order to play Marvin??

Crawford was collecting DNPs at the end of the season with GS and he played off the bench for NY. Both teams were crap. I am glad he scored well in the 4th this past season but that doesn't mean he should be starting.

[Diesel]

Your reading comprehension is almost as bad as your math. All i said was that he scored 1/4th of his points in the 4th in response to 9s post. You are just making up stuff as usual. I never said anything about Marvin taking over games in the 4th.

And your logic skills suck.

If you are responding to somebody making a claim about Marivn's 2nd half disappearance and you offer up that Marvin scored 3.3 in the 4th.. Didn't you mean that to be a retort? Or are you just like the people on the Bing.com commercials and you're spouting off useless stats?

How does that work?

9otherhino: Marvin disappears late in games.

Ex: Marvin shoots the best free throw percentage in the third quarter for the Hawks.

Poster: The Hawks were better defensively without Marvin.

Ex: Marvin is the best Sf of all those drafted in the top 5 of his draft.

So this is your new thing. Just respond? Wow.. that helps... Thanks Ex.

:cheers:

[exodus]

And your logic skills suck.

If you are responding to somebody making a claim about Marivn's 2nd half disappearance and you offer up that Marvin scored 3.3 in the 4th.. Didn't you mean that to be a retort? Or are you just like the people on the Bing.com commercials and you're spouting off useless stats?

How does that work?

[

Man i didn't think you could be this dumb. 9 said

And he has to start playing more than 2 quarters of basketball.

So i point out that Marvin scored in the 4th like someone (unlike you) who understood math would expect him to score. He scored roughly 1/4th of his points. Is this really that hard for you to understand?

Maybe i have to simplify things for you and 9. On the season Marvin scored 7 of his points in the second half (3.7 in the 3rd and 3.3 in the fourth).

How is he disappearing in the second half if he scores half his points in the 2nd half?

Edited July 28, 2009 by exodus

[Admin]

Man i didn't think you could be this dumb. 9 said

So i point out that Marvin scored in the 4th like someone (unlike you) who understood math would expect him to score. He scored roughly 1/4th of his points. Is this really that hard for you to understand?

Maybe i have to simplify things for you and 9. On the season Marvin scored 7 of his points in the second half (3.7 in the 3rd and 3.3 in the fourth).

How is he disappearing in the second half if he scores half his points in the 2nd half?

It's very easy to understand that he scores consistently in each quarter of the game, including the 4th. While it's impressive that he's so consistent with it I am disappointed that he doesn't show improvement in the 4th quarter or the 2nd half in general. I think that has more to do with him being content to fill his role and that's very admirable, but I'd certainly like to see him be a bigger part of the offense this year.

[Peoriabird]

It's very easy to understand that he scores consistently in each quarter of the game, including the 4th. While it's impressive that he's so consistent with it I am disappointed that he doesn't show improvement in the 4th quarter or the 2nd half in general. I think that has more to do with him being content to fill his role and that's very admirable, but I'd certainly like to see him be a bigger part of the offense this year.

This is Joe's team! We don't expect Andrew Bynum to score more than Kobe in the 4th quarter do we? Haven't said that, I do expect some improvement now that Flip is gone

Edited July 28, 2009 by Peoriabird

[Admin]

This is Joe's team! We don't expect Andrew Bynum to score more than Kobe in the 4th quarter do we? Haven't said that, I do expect some improvement now that Flip is gone

I'm sure the Lakers fans and the team would like Bynum to score more in the 4th quarter. Do you really think any coach, even Phil Jackson, would only want his star player scoring in the 4th? There are 12 minutes in the 4th quarter and that's more than enough time for Marvin to get 2-3 more FGA without taking anything away from Joe.