Joe Johnson 6-17 13 points..I have an idea...LETS GIVE HIM 20 MILLIONS DOLLARS!

[exodus]

We are all sick of this trash (your dumb threads). JJ had a cold night from 3 but that didn't cause the Hawks to get outrebounded by 19. Hickson got more rebounds than Horford and Smith combined. Lebron and Big Z both got more rebounds than anyone on our team.

[MVP23]

:thumbsdownsmileyanim:

Joe Johnson is not one of the elite players in the NBA.

Sure, he is good, borderline great. Sure, he's made the all star team for four straight years. Sure, he usually draws

the double team from our opponents, yet manages, on most nights, to be our leading scorer.

Then, he has games like last night which destroys all your good feeling about him. Too many people blaim all

his missed shots on great defense by our opponent, whoever it happens to be on any given night. Nope. He's

just not consistant. There is just not THAT much difference in the defensive ability in the NBA.

Joe Johnson has games where he has a hot hand. He can't be stopped. Every shot, it seems, drops. Then, he has

games where he can't buy a basket, like last night. Great Cleveland defense wasn't responsible for all the missed

shots. His box score doesn't look terrible. He hit a couple of shots in the last minute of the game, one of them his

only three of the night.

The point being made, which some want to label a Joe Johnson hate thread, is not a hate thread at all. It simply

is pointing out that there are layers of greatness in the NBA, or any where else for that matter. As good as he is,

he is not in the top layer. Some have said that, should the Hawks lose Joe Johnson, they would fall back to the

thirteen win season level that we had that first year of the rebuilding of the Hawks.

This is an insult to the remainder of the players on the roster. That says, without Joe Johnson, they are nothing.

We want to retain the services of Joe Johnson. We want him to remain a Hawk. What people should realise,

we can't pay him all the money available and leave nothing else in the pot for any one else. We can't have

a complete D League team and Joe Johnson. Others deserve a slice of the pie. Joe Johnson isn't THAT good.

:stirthepot:

How in the hell do you post the same exact thing I do (in other words) and get a thumbs up, but I get 4 thumbs down?

[Sothron]

Joe hurt his hand against the Lakers and this was the first game where the swelling and tightness would have factored into his shooting. I find it comical that people want to kill the guy after he just whooped up on Kobe and the Lakers.

[MVP23]

Joe hurt his hand against the Lakers and this was the first game where the swelling and tightness would have factored into his shooting. I find it comical that people want to kill the guy after he just whooped up on Kobe and the Lakers.

You act as if that was the ONLY time...

[Sothron]

You act as if that was the ONLY time...

Weren't you supposed to castrate yourself and stop posting here or something?

[Colin]

I look at it like this:

I was disappointed in JJ last night, at no point did he take over, and couldn't get into a rhythm. That being said, his hand IS hurt, and that factored in, how much, is all up to you. Bad games happen, but a game on the road, against the best team in the NBA, you can't castrate him for it. Superstars step up in big games, but just as often, they have off nights.

I NEED to see what Joe Johnson does in the playoffs this year to make a decision. The fact of the matter is, he is having a typical JJ season, and we are a 50-win team with him. He knows these playoffs are his stage, and that is why i'm so excited for it. Look at last night, Crawford did just as poorly, Smoove started cold, and was terrible on his free throws, Bibby was non existent, and Horford was missing shots he would usually hit. ONLY Marvin had a really good game last night, and we only lost by 5 on the road (though it was pretty much a 10 point game).

If you are disappointed with the loss, i'm right there with you, because I thought we would prove we are right there with the Cavs. But we have now lost, what, 7 in a row to Cleveland?

Joe Johnson has had his regular, stellar JJ-like regular season, but the playoffs will be where he earns his future, wherever it will be.

[Wurider05]

I pointed this out during the chat last night. For too often JJ is suppose to be the best guard in the game just like last night. He gets showed by by the likes of John Salmons and Mo Williams. JJ got shut down by Delonte West. He needs to get the average of what Salmon and Williams makes. Marv was guarding Lebron most of the night so that isn't an excuse. 20 million my *ss!!!!

[MaceCase]

The number you are looking for is 17 million but please, carry on.

[niremetal]

You act as if that was the ONLY time...

And you act as if games like that are the rule rather than the exception.

[Birdman316]

well they did say he injured his shooting hand against the Lakers and reinjured it against Cleveland which is why he sat out tonight. So maybe him re injuring his hand cost him to have an off night. But who cares we are one win away from having our first 50 win season in what 10 years. and we locked up a Top 4 seed tonight. Be happy

[Plastic Man]

To be fair Joe made the allstar game by being the best player on awful teams.

Riiiight. That's why Iggy, Al Jefferson, Devin Harris, Monta are all perennial all-stars.

[Gray Mule]

:white flag:

JJ was playing injured. Who's fault is it that he had to stay in the game and continue to play, even after

he admittedly re-injured his shooting hand? Did he try to be Macho and not tell Woody? Or, did he

tell Woody and our esteemed coach keep him in the game any way?

Which ever way you believe that it is, it probably shouldn't have been.

No, this wasn't the first bad game JJ has had this season. Sometimes he's terrific. Sometimes he's not.

Until we were told of the injury, we had to guess that this was one of those poor games that JJ has.

But, with all this being said, how many of you believe that JJ has earned, that he deserves to have such a

huge payday that there is no money left to pay any one else. Is JJ the entire Hawks team, all by himself?

Or, is he just a part of the whole, a very important part, but nevertheless, a part of the team. Is our success

all the results of JJ? :question:

[niremetal]

:white flag:

JJ was playing injured. Who's fault is it that he had to stay in the game and continue to play, even after

he admittedly re-injured his shooting hand? Did he try to be Macho and not tell Woody? Or, did he

tell Woody and our esteemed coach keep him in the game any way?

Which ever way you believe that it is, it probably shouldn't have been.

No, this wasn't the first bad game JJ has had this season. Sometimes he's terrific. Sometimes he's not.

Until we were told of the injury, we had to guess that this was one of those poor games that JJ has.

But, with all this being said, how many of you believe that JJ has earned, that he deserves to have such a

huge payday that there is no money left to pay any one else. Is JJ the entire Hawks team, all by himself?

Or, is he just a part of the whole, a very important part, but nevertheless, a part of the team. Is our success

all the results of JJ? :question:

Way below the usual quality of your posts. So many strawmen that it's hard to know where to begin...

First, even a max contract wouldn't pay Joe anything remotely close to the team cap (much less the tax threshold), and the Hawks have large expiring deals coming up in 2011 (Jamal), 2012 (Bibby), 2013 (Josh + Zaza) and 2014 (Marvin), each of whom is likely to get a paycut considering where the player is likely to be in their respective careers. So your set up it's a red herring/false choice to ask whether paying him the max would pay him so much that there wouldn't be money left for anyone else.

Second, please name me a player besides T-Mac who pulls himself when he's hurt but capable of playing (albeit at 70% of his usual quality). It's up to the coaches and trainers to force a player to sit. Virtually every player who has the talent and drive to get to the level of being an NBA All-Star is not the type that pulls himself due to a nagging injury. I would not hold it against the PLAYER if he stayed in when he had a hurt finger. Players have pride, and the best ones pretty much by nature have even more pride. I would never, ever blame the player for not taking himself out. Because from a young age, a player who takes himself out is viewed as a little less of a man for doing so. I think you realize that's true on some level. But don't just take my word for it. Read Breaks of the Game by David Halberstam. One part talks about how when Bill Walton was playing injured, he kept looking over to the bench, hoping that a coach would catch his eye and take him out. But they never did. So he kept fighting through it, because he knew how it would look if he took himself out for what he thought was just a nagging injury (turned out it was much more serious, but that's for a different part of the book). People would say he was unwilling to play through pain, etc. So he kept going much longer than he should have - and aggravated the underlying injury in the process to the point that it became career-threatening.

And that's one of many, many examples. Players play hurt all the time, even when it hurts the team. Kobe, Wade, and Shaq have all done it at various times in their respective careers. Duncan wasn't happy about being benched on the second night of back-to-backs last year to rest his knees. Objectively, he had to realize that having him out on the floor that much was not good for the team in either the short-run or the long-run. But TD didn't want to sit. That's how top-level players think. In high school, they were the guys who ran until they threw up, and then they ran some more. You HAVE to have that kind of drive and desire to play every second of every game to reach the levels that those guys play at. That's why it's up to the coaches and trainers to say "you need to sit this one out." Clearly, the coaches knew JJ was hurt. They let him play anyway. If you want to blame JJ, fine. But find me a star who hasn't done the same thing.

Sometimes he's terrific. Sometimes he's not. Until we were told of the injury, we had to guess that this was one of those poor games that JJ has.

People act like JJ is unusual in this regard. You want consistent, you can rejuvenate Shareef (never more than 30, never less than 15). But if you are capable of playing at a higher level, the downside is that sometimes you overreach. Even the very best players try to shoot through slumps.

I think people around here need to spend some time reading Heat, Blazers, and Nuggets blogs. The gripes we have about JJ are not much different than the gripes those fans have about their star players, even though their best players are (at least in the case of Wade and Carmelo) almost inarguably better than JJ. They dominate the ball, don't pass, take plays off defensively, aren't as good as Kobe/LeBron, etc. But the hate aimed at JJ around here is a unique phenomenon, far as I can see. And we'll all be in for a rude awakening if JJ leaves and we realize that we would have been way, way better off paying him $17.5M than letting him walk for nothing (and don't kid yourself into thinking there's a chance in hell that we'd get anything back for JJ).

Lastly,

Is JJ the entire Hawks team, all by himself?

Or, is he just a part of the whole, a very important part, but nevertheless, a part of the team. Is our success

all the results of JJ?

Who has even remotely suggested any of that?

Edited April 4, 2010 by niremetal

[itsslomotionbaby]

:thumbsdownsmileyanim:

Joe Johnson is not one of the elite players in the NBA.

Sure, he is good, borderline great. Sure, he's made the all star team for four straight years. Sure, he usually draws

the double team from our opponents, yet manages, on most nights, to be our leading scorer.

Then, he has games like last night which destroys all your good feeling about him. Too many people blaim all

his missed shots on great defense by our opponent, whoever it happens to be on any given night. Nope. He's

just not consistant. There is just not THAT much difference in the defensive ability in the NBA.

Joe Johnson has games where he has a hot hand. He can't be stopped. Every shot, it seems, drops. Then, he has

games where he can't buy a basket, like last night. Great Cleveland defense wasn't responsible for all the missed

shots. His box score doesn't look terrible. He hit a couple of shots in the last minute of the game, one of them his

only three of the night.

The point being made, which some want to label a Joe Johnson hate thread, is not a hate thread at all. It simply

is pointing out that there are layers of greatness in the NBA, or any where else for that matter. As good as he is,

he is not in the top layer. Some have said that, should the Hawks lose Joe Johnson, they would fall back to the

thirteen win season level that we had that first year of the rebuilding of the Hawks.

This is an insult to the remainder of the players on the roster. That says, without Joe Johnson, they are nothing.

We want to retain the services of Joe Johnson. We want him to remain a Hawk. What people should realise,

we can't pay him all the money available and leave nothing else in the pot for any one else. We can't have

a complete D League team and Joe Johnson. Others deserve a slice of the pie. Joe Johnson isn't THAT good.

:stirthepot:

a-men to that thought process i think you have politely explained our disapointments b/c we arent saying we dont want joe on the club, but for 20 million. maybe he is the only one we can pay that money too which is screwed , johnson has not been the main cog of the offense coming down the strech in quite a few of these games i feel like their ares some directiond sund could go i beleive he could find someone that could put 18 pts. a night in the shooting guard spot and replace bibby with a point that puts a little more pressure on the defense and their you have the intangibles with horford and smoove improving this team has emerged far from a jj only team. we might loose out on the defensive end but some guards run past joe every now and then

[itsslomotionbaby]

The number you are looking for is 17 million but please, carry on.

i can definately agree with giving him 17 maybe even 18 just to say thankyou but 20

[TheNorthCydeRises]

a-men to that thought process i think you have politely explained our disapointments b/c we arent saying we dont want joe on the club, but for 20 million. maybe he is the only one we can pay that money too which is screwed , johnson has not been the main cog of the offense coming down the strech in quite a few of these games i feel like their ares some directiond sund could go i beleive he could find someone that could put 18 pts. a night in the shooting guard spot and replace bibby with a point that puts a little more pressure on the defense and their you have the intangibles with horford and smoove improving this team has emerged far from a jj only team. we might loose out on the defensive end but some guards run past joe every now and then

Who is Sund going to find that will shoot 45% FG, average 18 ppg, and play defense . . and set others up for their offense? You guys act like JJ is a dime a dozen player. Even Crawford isn't a dime a dozen player. Some of you confuse JJ not being Kobe, as JJ being replaceable.

Do some of you realize how long it took us to find a legit SF to replace Dominique? . . . or Dikembe Mutumbo? . . . or Steve Smith?

And we still haven't found a PG on the level of Mookie Blaylock.

All-Star players are NOT easy to replace folks. Just ask the New York Knicks.

[thecampster]

You act as if that was the ONLY time...

Joe has played in 73 games this year. He has shot below 40% 21 times. Now if he was getting to the free throw line that would be acceptable. In my opinion, shooting lower than 40% for a game as the number one scoring option is a failure. So by that standard, Joe failed his team 21 out of 73 times or 28.7% of the time. FYI, he shot under 30% 3 times.

For the season, Joe is 609 of 1339 for 45.5% which is very respectable. What is not respectable is 1550 points on 1339 shots. That works out to 1.15758 points per attempt. Comparing that to Lebron James, Lebron took 1484 shots (145 more than JJ) and scored 2197 points (647 more than JJ) for 1.48 points per attempt or .33 points per attempt more. On a 20 shot attempt night that works out to 6.7 points. That's typically the difference between winning and losing most nights.

Joe's problem is offensive efficiency that goes beyond field goal percentage. Josh Smith for example scores at 1.275 per attempt. Kobe Bryant 1.266. Amare 1.506. Jamal Crawford 1.28.

Possessions are precious in the NBA and that is the problem with Joe. He doesn't get to the line. His numbers are actually inflated because he takes the Technical free throws for the team. Not much but it shows the extended difference. Joe doesn't get to the line and doesn't get the extra points to make himself worthy. He pulls up way too much from 5-10 feet and doesn't get to the rim.

The Atlanta Hawks average 1.224 points per attempt. Joe Johnson averages 1.16...we average .06 points more every time someone other than Joe attempts a basket. That's just cold hard facts. In the world of producing while shooting, Joe isn't producing.

I understand double teams and off nights and everything else but other players face other challenges. For Joe Johnson to be worth the money he wants, he needs to start attacking the rim.

[Antmillennium]

Joe has played in 73 games this year. He has shot below 40% 21 times. Now if he was getting to the free throw line that would be acceptable. In my opinion, shooting lower than 40% for a game as the number one scoring option is a failure. So by that standard, Joe failed his team 21 out of 73 times or 28.7% of the time. FYI, he shot under 30% 3 times.

For the season, Joe is 609 of 1339 for 45.5% which is very respectable. What is not respectable is 1550 points on 1339 shots. That works out to 1.15758 points per attempt. Comparing that to Lebron James, Lebron took 1484 shots (145 more than JJ) and scored 2197 points (647 more than JJ) for 1.48 points per attempt or .33 points per attempt more. On a 20 shot attempt night that works out to 6.7 points. That's typically the difference between winning and losing most nights.

Joe's problem is offensive efficiency that goes beyond field goal percentage. Josh Smith for example scores at 1.275 per attempt. Kobe Bryant 1.266. Amare 1.506. Jamal Crawford 1.28.

Possessions are precious in the NBA and that is the problem with Joe. He doesn't get to the line. His numbers are actually inflated because he takes the Technical free throws for the team. Not much but it shows the extended difference. Joe doesn't get to the line and doesn't get the extra points to make himself worthy. He pulls up way too much from 5-10 feet and doesn't get to the rim.

The Atlanta Hawks average 1.224 points per attempt. Joe Johnson averages 1.16...we average .06 points more every time someone other than Joe attempts a basket. That's just cold hard facts. In the world of producing while shooting, Joe isn't producing.

I understand double teams and off nights and everything else but other players face other challenges. For Joe Johnson to be worth the money he wants, he needs to start attacking the rim.

EXCELLENT post. Joe doesn't get to the freethrow line. That's one of my biggest gripes with him. If he got to the line more, then he might be one of those players that is just under the elite level. However, being that he doesn't, he's about 2 notches below elite. When his shot is not falling, he's absolutely useless because he won't be getting to the freethrow line.

[DeacKillsaDevil]

Kobe is one of the best closers in the game. He and Joe are not anywhere near the same level.

Agreed. But the original poster said JJ must put us in a position to win EVERY night. My point is that not even Kobe is doing that.

Speaking of Kobe, his team just got spanked at home.

Edited April 5, 2010 by DeacKillsaDevil

[lifelong]

Not sure if these are reposts, but they are new to me. I came across a couple of deep statistical looks at whether JJ is worth a max deal at this point in his career. I've always thought he is not, what do you guys think?

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=945

http://www.blogabull.com/2010/2/8/1300945/what-can-we-expect-from-joe-johnson