That game-winning 3 pointer will set Josh back 2 years

[Peoriabird]

I love the Saturday morning armchair quarterbacking by a bunch of guys that get sat down in the gym at the Y. Seriously guys. How many of you have as much talent as Josh, Joe, Al, Marvin or even Bibby have in their left shoe?

I swear there is no winning on this message board. 1 minute everyone is saying fire the coach because the system isn't working because we just got swept by the Magic/Cavaliers. The next minute we are saying that there was nothing wrong with how things use to be because we luckily won a game against a bad team. You Guys cannot be serious! :help wanted3:

[thecampster]

Last nights's Plus minus, worst to first. Season numbers to the right.

Bibby -5 (season 0)

JJ -5 (season +2)

Horford -4 (Season -2)

Powell -1 (Season +3)

Marvin +2 (Season +12)

Teague +3 (season +13)

Crawford +7 (season +19)

Pachulia +7 (Season +20)

Josh Smith +11 (season +18)

Total 3 point attempts through 2 games for Josh 3. 3 pointers made 2. Percentage 66%

Total 3 point attempts for the rest of the Hawks - 30 taken, 12 made. Percentage 40%.

Blocked shots - Josh = 11, rest of Hawks = 6 (64.7% of team Blocks)

Rebounds - Josh = 15, rest of Hawks = 75 (16.7% of team rebounds)

Assists - Josh = 7, rest of Hawks 37 (15.9% of team assists)

Total shots taken - Josh = 21 , Rest of Team = 129 (% of shots taken = 14%)

Team shots missed - Josh 12, Rest of Team = 60 (% of shots missed 16%)

Minutes per game - 26.41. Yes, that kind of impact in less than 27 minutes a game.

You guys make it sound like he's the reason for every Hawk loss and close game. The numbers tell a different story. Nothing about the numbers bears out Josh having a negative impact thus far.

[exodus]

I love the Saturday morning armchair quarterbacking by a bunch of guys that get sat down in the gym at the Y. Seriously guys. How many of you have as much talent as Josh, Joe, Al, Marvin or even Bibby have in their left shoe?

Dumbest post of the thread. So since we aren't in the NBA that means we aren't allowed to have opinions about the team? What do you think message boards are for?

Since you brought it up i bet a lot of people on this board could shoot rings around Smith. I could beat him in a shooting contest one handed. Easily.

[DJlaysitup]

Smoove gets no touches beyond ten feet out = he attempts no threes or WTF twos = Hawks fans rest easier. Use the motion offense to deal with the double team until Smoove figures out the only reason he's that far out is to help with screens.

~lw3

Another possibilty is that Smoove shooting the occasional three is OK with LD and it's actually part of the strategery. Think about it a second. If Smoove has been practicing perimeter shots in the off-season and LD feels he can gain enough confidence and effectiveness with the shot it could really help our offense. If Smoove shoots well enough so that other teams have to play him honestly on the perimeter it opens up passing lanes more - and Smoove is an excellent passer for his position.

Additionally, if the overall plan is to move CrawSr at midseason for a big, having Smoove gaining confidence in a "three-like" position on offense would make it easier to transition to a larger lineup in the future (front line of - New Center - Al at PF - and Smoove at SF). Not saying this would be our standard lineup, but it would allow LD to "go big" with more confidence when we need more size and aggressiveness against certain teams.

OK - blast away! :stirthepot:

[exodus]

Last nights's Plus minus, worst to first. Season numbers to the right.

Bibby -5 (season 0)

JJ -5 (season +2)

Horford -4 (Season -2)

Powell -1 (Season +3)

Marvin +2 (Season +12)

Teague +3 (season +13)

Crawford +7 (season +19)

Pachulia +7 (Season +20)

Josh Smith +11 (season +18)

Total 3 point attempts through 2 games for Josh 3. 3 pointers made 2. Percentage 66%

Total 3 point attempts for the rest of the Hawks - 30 taken, 12 made. Percentage 40%.

Blocked shots - Josh = 11, rest of Hawks = 6 (64.7% of team Blocks)

Rebounds - Josh = 15, rest of Hawks = 75 (16.7% of team rebounds)

Assists - Josh = 7, rest of Hawks 37 (15.9% of team assists)

Total shots taken - Josh = 21 , Rest of Team = 129 (% of shots taken = 14%)

Team shots missed - Josh 12, Rest of Team = 60 (% of shots missed 16%)

Minutes per game - 26.41. Yes, that kind of impact in less than 27 minutes a game.

You guys make it sound like he's the reason for every Hawk loss and close game. The numbers tell a different story. Nothing about the numbers bears out Josh having a negative impact thus far.

Smith has taken 21 shots so far from the field. 14 of them are jumper and it is shooting 28.5% on them. He has taken 7 shots on the inside and made 5, shooting 71%. It doesn't take a genius to realize he should be shooting fewer outside shots.

Edited October 30, 2010 by exodus

[capstone21]

+1

I don't have a problem with the game winner if smoove hadn't taken almost half a dozen shots outside the college 3 range earlier in the ball game.

His shot selection is disturbing.

He has regressed this year. He has taken 3 3 pointers already this season and a lot of long jumpers. That was a terrible decision and very lucky to shoot and hit that 3 pointer last night when the game was on the line. His game is not suited to take jumpers and last year he pulled it in a bit but its like 2 seasons ago that soon as he touches the ball way outside he shoots it.

Josh should be inside messing it up or driving to the hole.

[Diesel]

It's not likely that any of you are going to be able to effectively argue either side of this. Too many factors are involved that aren't constant.

Interesting questions though:

1. Does Smoove's overall game more than compensate as a result of being given free-rein to shoot jumpers?

If YES, then....

2. Does the team quit or play worse when he does this?

These would seem to be the important questions that need answering. Not simply throwing out his FG% versus another persons --- and coming to the conclusion that the answer is so obvious. That method doesn't seem to be an analysis of cause and effect whatsoever -- which is what I thought this thread was supposed to be attempting to get a line on.

CS

The problem is not the shots themselves. The problem is the lack of evolution. If you're not good at doing something but great at doing something else, why not do that perfectly. It's like if John Stockton said he wanted to become a threat to dunk over his man. So that when Stockton was on the break, he'd try to go in for the Dunk on his man. 9 times out of 10, it doesn't work. 1 time out of 10, he dunks on him. Does Jerry Sloan look the other way when Stockton goes for dunks in the next games? Sure, Stockton's overall play is positive, but it could be more positive if he focused on what he was good at doing. That's what Hawks fans see in Smoove. Yes, he's great at defense, blocking shots, and even driving the lane (when he does it) but with that he has this need to go out and do what he's not good at.

[jy23]

People lets stop trying to use stats in this argument because both sides can easily come up with some stat that makes their point.......lets just try this, being a fan of this team and watching games daily do you really think that Smoove should be shooting jumpers, just with a simple eye test, when you see him shoot that shot do you not cringe? Is there ever a time when he shoots a jumper and you think when it leaves his hand that that was a good shot and rather he misses it or not you were happy with the offensive execution that led to him getting that jumper? Do you not see him being more effective around the rim?

Now anyone who watches this team should pretty much come up with the same answers for those questions...........I don't care how many times he makes it I scream everytime he takes it because I KNOW ITS A BAD SHOT.......the thing that most posters are trying to get at is that HE SHOULD KNOW ITS A BAD SHOT BUT FOR SOME REASON THAT FACT JUST SEEMS TO MISS HIM.....we all love Smoove and everything that he brings to the team BUT we want him to be effective as possible and taking jumpers isnt effective at all

Now he did win the game with it so I don't have much to say about that particular shot but for me its about alot more than last night....its to the point with me that when I see him shooting I just get mad at him and for the rest of the game no matter what he does I'm pissed at him, it takes me about 2 quarters to actually start appreciating everything else that he does again......I love Smoove just like I do every other player on the team but the truth is the truth :beathorse:

[thecampster]

People lets stop trying to use stats in this argument because both sides can easily come up with some stat that makes their point.......lets just try this, being a fan of this team and watching games daily do you really think that Smoove should be shooting jumpers, just with a simple eye test, when you see him shoot that shot do you not cringe? Is there ever a time when he shoots a jumper and you think when it leaves his hand that that was a good shot and rather he misses it or not you were happy with the offensive execution that led to him getting that jumper? Do you not see him being more effective around the rim?

Now anyone who watches this team should pretty much come up with the same answers for those questions...........I don't care how many times he makes it I scream everytime he takes it because I KNOW ITS A BAD SHOT.......the thing that most posters are trying to get at is that HE SHOULD KNOW ITS A BAD SHOT BUT FOR SOME REASON THAT FACT JUST SEEMS TO MISS HIM.....we all love Smoove and everything that he brings to the team BUT we want him to be effective as possible and taking jumpers isnt effective at all

Now he did win the game with it so I don't have much to say about that particular shot but for me its about alot more than last night....its to the point with me that when I see him shooting I just get mad at him and for the rest of the game no matter what he does I'm pissed at him, it takes me about 2 quarters to actually start appreciating everything else that he does again......I love Smoove just like I do every other player on the team but the truth is the truth :beathorse:

And just like another poster brought up...His teammates keep passing to him and his coach keeps desiging sets that put him out there. There is a reason.

[IHeartAtlanta]

Dumbest post of the thread. So since we aren't in the NBA that means we aren't allowed to have opinions about the team? What do you think message boards are for?

Since you brought it up i bet a lot of people on this board could shoot rings around Smith. I could beat him in a shooting contest one handed. Easily.

Your Crazy..........

Smith CAN shoot, anyone that went to the open practice would laugh at your comment :laughing5:

[exodus]

Your Crazy..........

Smith CAN shoot, anyone that went to the open practice would laugh at your comment :laughing5:

Smith can't shoot a lick. Please point out one player in the NBA who shoots as many jumpers as Smith and shoots them worse. He is horrible.

Anyone can make a few shots in practice with nobody guarding them.

[jerrywest]

And just like another poster brought up...His teammates keep passing to him and his coach keeps desiging sets that put him out there. There is a reason.

I am sure that some players may have lower IQ than Josh, and may want to set him up for low probability shots, but I am sure, some players have higher IQ than Josh and the fact that they still set him up for low probability shots makes me think that they have come to peace with the unfortunate fact that Josh has irreparable brain damage.

Having said that I love Josh Smith, and I don't want to trade him unless we get a superstar.

The arguments in this thread are not going anywhere, because you can't teach multiplication to kids who can't add.

[mrhonline]

It's not the occasional three-pointer that's the problem, guys. It's the long two-point jumper.

Bret says it well over on Hoopinion:

Through two games, Smith is 2-11 on long two-point jumpers and 2-3 on three-point attempts. He's providing two object lessons: one on his inability to make jump shots, the other on the value of three-point shot relative to one taken one step inside the line. The Hawks can survive one or two Josh Smith three-point attempts a game. It will be more difficult to stomach Smith taking five shots a game that are worth two-thirds as much the 29% of the time they go in. Which goes to show, yet again, how short-sighted and incomplete the "Josh Smith isn't shooting three-pointers" praise was.

LINK

What's so amazing about Smith is that, despite his dumb shot selection and turnovers, he was STILL the leader in +/- last night. His defensive impact last night was the difference between winning and losing.

If he would make just a few changes to his game (no more long two-point jumpers, get the ball to a guard on the break, and box out better), he'd be a perennial All-Star.

[IHeartAtlanta]

Smith can't shoot a lick. Please point out one player in the NBA who shoots as many jumpers as Smith and shoots them worse. He is horrible.

Anyone can make a few shots in practice with nobody guarding them.

Maybe Dwight after watching last night lol

[exodus]

Maybe Dwight after watching last night lol

Wrong. Howard hardly ever takes jumpers. Try again.

[IHeartAtlanta]

Wrong. Howard hardly ever takes jumpers. Try again.

You must not have watched the game last night.......

but i got a couple for you...........

Tony Allen, Jokim Noah, Hakeem Warrick, Dahntay Jones, Spencer Hawes, Roy Hibbert, Dalembert, casspi, lou amundson, Rondo

all those players like smith shoot more jumpers than they should, some Smoove shoot's better than some not

[Dsinner]

I don't mind ZJosh shooting a 3 with the clock winding down. That shot did not bother me at all but anyone thinking Josh should be shooting long jumpers and 3's regularly is as dumb as Josh. I'm sorry but I thought Josh was finally getting it last year but he seems to have regressed. Josh shooting jumpers is basically a TO. We're basically giving the ball right back to the other team without our best leaper under the basket for a possible rebound. It is by far the worst offensive play we can run.

[exodus]

You must not have watched the game last night.......

but i got a couple for you...........

Tony Allen, Jokim Noah, Hakeem Warrick, Dahntay Jones, Spencer Hawes, Roy Hibbert, Dalembert, casspi, lou amundson, Rondo

all those players like smith shoot more jumpers than they should, some Smoove shoot's better than some not

Obviously you didn't understand what i asked so i will say it again. Show me one player who shoots AS MANY jumpers as Smith and shoots them WORSE.

Tony Allen hardly ever shoots a jumper.

Noah rarely shoots them and shoots 6% better than Smith.

Warrick shoots 8% better on jumpers than Smith.

Jones shoots 9% better.

Hawes shoots 10% better.

Daly shoots 7% better and shoots far fewer.

Cassipi shoots 15% better than Smith.

Amundson shoots 14% better.

Rondo shoots 9% better.

Try again

[IHeartAtlanta]

Obviously you didn't understand what i asked so i will say it again. Show me one player who shoots AS MANY jumpers as Smith and shoots them WORSE.

Tony Allen hardly ever shoots a jumper.

Noah rarely shoots them and shoots 6% better than Smith.

Warrick shoots 8% better on jumpers than Smith.

Jones shoots 9% better.

Hawes shoots 10% better.

Daly shoots 7% better and shoots far fewer.

Cassipi shoots 15% better than Smith.

Amundson shoots 14% better.

Rondo shoots 9% better.

Try again

Lmao dude ur taking this WAY 2 seriously hahaha

all i was saying is he would kill YOU in a shooting competition unlike you said

[jy23]

And just like another poster brought up...His teammates keep passing to him and his coach keeps desiging sets that put him out there. There is a reason.

so they should just not pass him the ball? Al was driving and left his feet in traffic, he had no other choice but to pass it to the man closest to him or give the ball away....there were 7 seconds on the shot clock and josh actually got his man up with a pump fake which made it even easier to drive if he decided to.....now last night he hit that shot but that was not the best play in that situation.

That logic is just dumb....because they pass him the ball does not mean he should choose to make a bad play, there's plenty he could do with the ball after catching it on the perimeter he just chooses the easy route. Thats like saying if I lead you to a bridge do you think that you're only choice is to jump?

He just plays dumb on the offensive end, point blank period.