Can the Hawks win a title with JJ as the #1 guy?

[MaceCase]

It's more of that Crack smoke?? You are now making revisions in history based on your crack memory. Because I agreed wtih Dlpin that Allen and Peirce are first ballot Hall of famers because they came together and won a championship. Then I, The GREAT ONE, went on to say that KG Also became a first ballot hall of famer at the same time...

Then you bring in your delusional statement... and i had to lay fact after fact on you.

You can't stand the facts huh CTC??

Is it because I'm willing to seek truth in my effort to be right than just do anything to be right (like you're doing)?

Maybe you can find another picture.

Maybe you can get some more crack memories.

Maybe you can find some friend (probably your uncle) to come here so that you can plus 1 him everytime he disagrees with me.

Just Shows you How great I am. I don't need anybody to Plus 1 me to be right. The facts speak for themselves.

Maybe CTC stands for Change the Context?? Cause that's your next move... Change the Context. Change the subject. Make it about Diesel and his ego. Please, be my guest! They know me. And right now... They know you too!! Because this is your M.O.

You were and still are wrong, KG's accomplishments in Minnesota alone blew out the water anything your 1970s deflections achieved in their entire NBA careers and he certainly blew out the water anything his new teammates had accomplished thus how the addition of a surefire first ballot hall of famer made two others more likely to become first ballot themselves so put that in your crackpipe and smoke it. I must have a lot of relatives on this site then seeing as a whole slew of people have shot down your stupidity but please, good sir, continue on with your diatribe of diarrhea. Does the baby want someone to agree with him so he can stepback out of this dance and collect his teeth from the floor while someone else gets shelled? Sure looks like it.

[MaceCase]

In JJ's case, it would have to be on a team in which the next 2 guys on the squad would have to have close or equal talent.

A team like the 2000 Milwaukee Bucks with Cassell - Ray Alen - and Big Dog ( when he was a good scorer ) comes to mind.

An old school team like the mid-80s Dallas Mavericks with Blackman - Harper - and Aguirre

A team that actually got to the Finals, were those New Jersey teams with Carter - Kidd - Jefferson . . along with an aging Mutumbo one year.

The Seattle team with Payton - Kemp - Schremph

The mid - late 90s Pacer team with Reggie Miller - Smits - Mark Jackson . . and later on Jalen Rose.

So it would have to be the right mix. A mix in which those 3 could collectively lift themselves up.

Here's the thing about All-NBA teams. They tend to recognize the guys who play at an elite level. But they also recognize guys who may not be having a stellar year stat wise, but are one of the main cogs on a good to great team.

That's how JJ can be 3rd team All-NBA last year on a 53 win Hawk team, but not even be considered in 2006 - 07 when he averaged 25 pts - 4 rebs - 4 assists - 47% FG . . but barely makes the All-Star team as an injury replacement, let alone get no recognition for an All-NBA squad.

North, nearly every player you mentioned here have put up consistently better years and PERs than JJ's career high, yes even Big Dog. The only people Joe is better thanon that list is Marc Jackson and Richard Jefferson who never went to a Finals with Carter but rather came off the bench for the first Nets one and started in the next one when Kenyon was still there and Blackmon who Joe just ties with. That seems to be where every argument is leading back to, get JJ two much better players and he can make a championship because nearly example is citing players that have either blown him out the water or were just consistently better than him. Seriously, Joe has played with two very good NBA players in the frontcourt and has had his offensive equal coming off the bench for the last two seasons, the excuse making just has to stop, the guy is not going to get it done as a number 1. And you might as well say that Monta Ellis is deserving of All NBA selections also if you want to argue Joe making it in 06

[Diesel]

You were and still are wrong, KG's accomplishments in Minnesota alone blew out the water anything your 1970s deflections achieved in their entire NBA careers

CTC... Cut to commercial.

Artis Gilmore...Bernard King were legends. KG didn't do didley in Minny. That's the problem. What exactly did he do?

You know... this is typical for you.

Instead of doing the research to figure out what you're talking about, you just put dumb stuff out there... Really? You really think that KG's accomplishments in Minny were better than Artis "the A-Train" Gilmore's career?? KG in Minny couldn't match Gilmore if he was allowed to borrow accomplishments.

But, we have the CTC cracksmoke special. " KG in Minny = very accomplished"?

CTC - Catch that Crack.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Diesel

[MaceCase]

10 All Star games, 8 All NBA teams, 8 All Defensive teams, 1 league MVP.

Looks like the Baby can't handle truth :scratchhead:

[TomSelleck]

KG didn't dodidley in Minny. That's the problem. What exactly did he do?

At his best average a 24-14-5, win a NBA MVP, 3-time all-NBA first team, 3-time all-NBA second team, 6-time all-defensive first team, 2-time all-defensive second team, 4-time rebounding champ, and 10-time all star.

[Diesel]

10 All Star games, 8 All NBA teams, 8 All Defensive teams, 1 league MVP.

Looks like the Baby can't handle truth :scratchhead:

Got all that... and I will see that and raise you Artis Gilmore:

ABA All-Time Team (1997)

ABA MVP (1972)

ABA Rookie of the Year (1972)

5x ABA All-Star (1972-76)

5x All-ABA First Team (1972-76)

5x ABA All-Defensive First Team (1972-76)

ABA All-Star Game MVP (1974)

ABA Playoff MVP (1975)

6x NBA All-Star (1978, 1979, 1981-83, 1986)

1x NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1978)

NBA career leader in field goal percentage

Career NBA and ABA statistics

Points 15,579 (NBA only)

24,941 (ABA/NBA)

FG% 59.9 (NBA only)

58.2 (ABA/NBA)

Blocks 1,747 (NBA only)

3,178 (ABA/NBA)

Do your research.

And...

And that includes KG's time in Boston.

[MaceCase]

So let me get this right, Gilmore in 17 professional basketball seasons achieved:

11 total All Star selections.

5 All ABA teams only

6 total All Defensive teams

1 ABA MVP award.

And is in the Hall of Fame.....

Garnett in 12 season in Minnesota achieved:

10 All Star selections.

8 All NBA teams

8 All Defensive Teams

1 NBA MVP award

Yet according to Diesel he was

1)

KG would not have gotten hall of fame credentials without getting to the finals

2)

statpadder who was on the down side of his career

3)

KG in Minny couldn't match Gilmore if he was allowed to borrow accomplishments.

You are the biggest joke in history. Do research? How bout you actually look at your research and realize how much of a fool you are.

[thescout5]

There seems to be two argments here:

One keep JJ and add to what we have or two trade JJ for a player that fits the team better or even trade him to get rid of the contract then make another deal to bring a player who fits the team concept better. I don't care how the Hawks do it but they have to get better on defense, have a half court game and rebound. Few teams can rely on jump shots to win playoff series time after time. Here's another thought if JJ was so good teams would be going after him despite his big contract. Why isn't this happening?

JJ is a good player but the Hawks need to add better player if they want to go deep. I see JJ's game limited since if his outside shot isn't falling he can't do anything else well. I'm sure all the JJ supporters will find other attributes JJ as but that's your opinion. I'm ready to make some moves and tired of this same old Hawks team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

@ thescout

Because JJ isn't on the trading block maybe?

U mean, Kobe and Lebron are locked up to long term deals. Are there any trade rumors about people wanting those guys?

I do agree with your initial statement though. Either keep trying to get better players around JJ, or trade JJ for pieces that can improve this team. And since JJ isn't going anywhere, the former needs to take place.

@ C to C

So this is the argument now? That JJ's PER doesn't match up. So PER is the determiner of who is the better player. So Horford shouls be our go to guy right? He by far has the best PER on the team, so everything should be running through Horford I guess.

PER says that Kevin Love is the best PF in the league, 4th best player overall, and should've made 1st team All-NBA

PER says that Derrick Rose should've finished behind Kobe, Dirk, Wade, even Love, and that Lebron should've won the MVP.

But poor Joe Johnson, with the average PER, gets treated like Jordan from the opposing team, for all of the double teams he sees? And when JJ passes the ball, and people miss jumpers to take assists away from JJ, JJ's PER doesn't increase.

I mean, call me crazy if I were to think that if JJ played with better players, specifically a more balanced team with a good pass first PG and low post scorer, that his efficency may increase instead. I guess that's a crazy thought though.

I wonder how a guy like Reggie Miller would look, had he have to handle the ball like a pseudo PG, get everybody else involved, and create his own shot, instead of running around like a chicken with it's head cut off?

It is what it is though. 75% - 80% of the playoff games that we did win, was because of him. But hey, lets get rid of THAT GUY, because PER says that we got 2 better players that can get it done

It is what it is though.

[MaceCase]

North there is no need for you to be so obtuse and try to focus in on only one aspect of what I said. No PER is not the end all be all but be real with yourself, you are continuing to compare JJ with Hall of Fame players, I don't even need PER to tell you they are better than him, your own common sense should tell you that. Put JJ on each of those teams and again, he's not the 1st option.

This continued nonsense about JJ receiving double teams....sigh....At what point will you realize that the double is not because teams fear JJ it's because they know it is a sound defensive strategy against him. The man simply doesn't have the ability to consistently split them and his awareness is so low and decision making so poor that he rather hit an open Josh 20 feet from the basket than a cutting Marvin. The man doesn't get doubled because he's God but rather because he can't beat it like nearly 98% of the other stars out there.

Fact is, JJ has had very good teammates, the team's success and record has actually coincided more with their improvements, not his. You want to go ahead and credit him with 80% of the playoff wins? What? Jamal was literally putting up Michael Jordan numbers the entire Orlando series off the bench and in lesser minutes in both wins and losses yet you only correlate the win to JJ because he got 20. In the Chicago series JJ had one of the most efficient games in NBA history (read: not something to be repeated) but guess what, Jamal went off too. In game 5 JJ was the leading scorer so I guess that's the only reason why the Hawks won, nothing to do with Josh going for a near triple double or even Horf pouring in 20 points.

You just want to go ahead and set all of these conditions and move the goalposts for what type of teammates Joe needs to be successful, wow. Just ask for the moon too while you're at it since Joe needs all of that to be successful but then it's funny because when Joe did have all of those things in his teammates.....he was the 4th option. It's sad really, this guy is getting paid and treated like a superstar yet even you are admitting that the team absolutely needs players better than him to be successful...... In what world is this considered logical reasoning for keeping someone?

[dlpin]

Not true.

Spencer Heywood Still waits.

Artis Gilmore just got in.. but he had more credentials than most people who were picked first ballot. (Bill Walton amoung others)

Alex English is waiting. but he was never MVP

Dennis Johnson finally got in . But he was never MVP

Bernard King is waiting but he was never MVP.

The way that these selections are made is toss some names up in the air and whosoever name falls into a circle is in.

He was MVP of the ABA. ABA which people pretty much universally recognized as being mostly inferior, and that only started having a dedicated committee in the hall of fame last year.

Just as with Artis Gilmore (who got in because of the aforementioned just created ABA committee).

ABA MVP is nowhere near the same thing as NBA mvp. Spencer Heywood is proof of that. 30ppg and mvp as a rookie on the aba, 20ppg and only 4 all stars in the NBA.

Even then, only 3 aba mvps are not in the hall of fame.

So yes, KG was a lock to be on the hall of fame before boston. Yes. KG was a much better player than anyone currently on the hawks, and was the best player on the celtics. It makes no sense to compare JJ to KG.

So, to go back to the original question: the only way JJ is the best player on a title team is if the team is very well coached and every other starter on the hawks is very close to JJ in skill.

[DJlaysitup]

@ thescout

I mean, call me crazy if I were to think that if JJ played with better players, specifically a more balanced team with a good pass first PG and low post scorer, that his efficency may increase instead. I guess that's a crazy thought though.

Nobody is calling you crazy northcyde...you make a good point. If Joe Johnson was simply tasked with being a shooting guard (hitting shots one day and missing them the next) with occasional inside presence due to his size...we would love him.

But the truth is - BK made the gamble - JJ took the money - and he is (supposed) to be our #1 guy.

[Diesel]

He was MVP of the ABA. ABA which people pretty much universally recognized as being mostly inferior, and that only started having a dedicated committee in the hall of fame last year.

Name of external link

If the NBA was so Dominant.. why did so many ABA stars go to the NBA and become superstars?

Dr. J.

Dan Issel

Artis Gilmore

Connie Hawkins

Moses Malone

George Gervin

Maurice Lucas

David Thompson

etc...

Why is it that they were considered to have the best referees?

Why is it that they had legendary coaches before the NBA would pick them up:

Larry Brown

Hubie Brown

Doug Mo...

Then there's this:

Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right.

Wait. there's more..

Without the ABA, you wouldn't have:

3 pt shots.

pressing defenses.

Slam dunk contest.

Shot clock.

The ABA was the innovative league. The NBA was the well established league. The NBA had it's older stars. The ABA were attracting the younger stars. We're not talking about USFL here, we're talking about a League that had it had the financing and business sense would have put the NBA out of business easily.

[99PROBL3MS]

I disagree with your reasoning behind the double teams though CTC. Teams know that if they focus on taking JJ and Craw away, the rest of our team can't beat them. Neither of them has great PER but that is just how I see it. Teams know that if they can slow JJ and Craw with doubles that Horf, Marv, and Smoove aren't good enough to beat them.

Edited June 10, 2011 by 99PROBL3MS

[dlpin]

This is an argument, but it is a misleading argument.

I can easily say...

What about Malone? What about Dirk? What about Charles? What about Nash? What about Iverson? What about Robinson (pre Duncan)?

Then it goes back to what I pulled out before. 5 teams 51 NBA Championships.

Then you have to go back and look at those teams again.

Bird played with the original Big three.

Thomas played with Dumars and a team full of Pistons.

Magic had the Lakers.

Jordan had Pippen.

Robinson didn't do a thing until he got Duncan.

Duncan had either Robinson or Manu/Tony

Wade had Shaq.

Shaq had Kobe.

Kobe had Gasol

And the Second big three had each other.

What "real" all-star quality player does Joe have? Somebody you can mention with Dumars, Pippen, Kobe, Pierce, Allen and Gasol?

Why couldn't Shaq win a championship in Orlando?

Why did Barkley never win a championship?

You have to make an admission that MVP is just coincidental when you find the amount of MVPs that are ringless and the circumstances by which these MVPs got their rings.

They got their rings because they were on the right team at the right time.

KG was an MVP in Minny... Why couldn't he win a championship with them?

Let me help you. Wrong team. Wrong time.

Had he stayed there, he would have never won a championship.

Had Bron stayed in Cleveland, he would have not won a championship.

Bosh in Toronto would not have sniffed championship.

Rose in Chicago.. he has time.

Diesel, no one denies that great players need help. The question was if JJ can be the best player on a title team, not whether he needs more help. Let me ask you two questions:

- In which team, of all those you listed, would JJ be the best player?

- Name 2 players who are worse than JJ and would transform Atlanta into instant title contenders if they came here? And I don't mean in addition to Horford and Smith, but instead of them. Because as I said, JJ can be the best player on a title team if the team has 4 other all star/all defensive nba type of players like the 04 pistons had.

[Diesel]

Nobody is calling you crazy northcyde...you make a good point. If Joe Johnson was simply tasked with being a shooting guard (hitting shots one day and missing them the next) with occasional inside presence due to his size...we would love him.

But the truth is - BK made the gamble - JJ took the money - and he is (supposed) to be our #1 guy.

Until JJ is GM and he can give himself a balanced team to play with... I don't think you can put that on him simply because of Money.

[dlpin]

Name of external link

If the NBA was so Dominant.. why did so many ABA stars go to the NBA and become superstars?

Dr. J.

Dan Issel

Artis Gilmore

Connie Hawkins

Moses Malone

George Gervin

Maurice Lucas

David Thompson

etc...

Why is it that they were considered to have the best referees?

Why is it that they had legendary coaches before the NBA would pick them up:

Larry Brown

Hubie Brown

Doug Mo...

Then there's this:

Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right.

Wait. there's more..

Without the ABA, you wouldn't have:

3 pt shots.

pressing defenses.

Slam dunk contest.

Shot clock.

The ABA was the innovative league. The NBA was the well established league. The NBA had it's older stars. The ABA were attracting the younger stars. We're not talking about USFL here, we're talking about a League that had it had the financing and business sense would have put the NBA out of business easily.

Doesn't change the fact that the ABA was clearly inferior. All 4 teams that moved to the nba did worse than in the ABA. But the ABA/NBA discussion is besides the point. Even if you include the ABA in the discussion we are still talking about only 3 mvps in 60+ years of basketball not in the hall of fame. And all 3 not in the hall of fame had worse careers than KG. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that KG would be in the hall of fame even without boston. Just like everyone is sure that Nash will be there as well.

[AHF]

Diesel, no one denies that great players need help. The question was if JJ can be the best player on a title team, not whether he needs more help. Let me ask you two questions:

- In which team, of all those you listed, would JJ be the best player?

JJ would not be close to the best player on any of those teams.

We should still be trying to acquire a star to add to this team and not trying to ditch JJ.

[Atlantaholic]

If you put Joe on a team with two other perennial all-stars and role players such as Chandler, Marion, Terry etc. yes he could be the best player on that team and seriously contend for a title.

Lmfao

Yeah, ok. Name me one player in the damn league who wouldn't be contending with TWO freaking perennial All Stars, a Chandler, Marion, and the NBA's best sixth man. Lebron James was contending with non of that. How many perennial all stars is Kobe Bryant playing with? How many Perennial All-Stars has Dirk EVER played with. This is your argument that Joe can be a number 1 guy??? Furthermore, give me ONE perennial All-Star who ISN'T a better palyer than Joe. Please, name me ONE. Unless it's a 34+ year old on the heavy decline in his career like say Ray Allen there is non.

[Diesel]

I disagree with your reasoning behind the double teams though CTC. Teams know that if they focus on taking JJ and Craw away, the rest of our team can't beat them. Neither of them has great PER but that is just how I see it. Teams know that if they can slow JJ and Craw with doubles that Horf, Marv, and Smoove aren't good enough to beat them.

Beware of stats that are based on Possessions and FTs. Two areas that Joe is never going to be great at. However, it doesn't make him an inferior player because he's not leading his position in rebounds. Nor is he bad because he doesn't get his points by driving the lane and whining to the refs for fouls. However, these stats give heavy consideration for guys who do that.