Lou Williams (Audio)

[AHF]

And by the way, I know that you aren't calling the 2012 team Wade's team or the 08 Celtics Pierce team

No. I am saying they were teams that drafted players that were dominant All-NBA players. Pierce was rated the best player in the Finals and was the 2nd best player on his team (and All-NBA). Wade was the guy who drew Bosh and Lebron to Miami, and while he wasn't the same force that he was in his previous finals victory in 2012 he was clearly his teams 2nd best player this season and was an All-NBA stud who was critical to his team's success. Edited July 24, 2012 by AHF

[Peoriabird]

No. I am saying they were teams that drafted players that were dominant All-NBA players. Pierce was rated the best player in the Finals and was the 2nd best player on his team (and All-NBA).

And they were in the lottery 3 strait years with Pierce as their Star before finally deciding to screw building though the draft and going out and trading for Garnett and Allen

Wade was the guy who drew Bosh and Lebron to Miami, and while he wasn't the same force that he was in his previous finals victory in 2012 he was clearly his teams 2nd best player this season and was an All-NBA stud who was critical to his team's success.

How would this be any different if Josh Smith draws Howard to Atlanta?

[Final_quest]

Huge difference between Josh Smith and Wade. Wade is an all NBA player, all star every year, Finals MVP, and Josh Smith's resume does not compare. I will give Josh Smith a lot of credit if he brings Howard on board. I'm not expecting that to happen. What this thread indicates is that you need an All NBA type talent from the draft in order to bring in another one via trade or free agency to get a title.

[Sothron]

How would this be any different if Josh Smith draws Howard to Atlanta?

So Josh Smith is a superstar on the same level as Wade. You heard it here on Hawksquawk first folks.

[Peoriabird]

What this thread indicates is that you need an All NBA type talent from the draft in order to bring in another one via trade or free agency to get a title.

Boston didn't have anything Pierce. Miami Had nothing but Wade. Atlanta has Smith Horford, Teague, Lou Williams, Devin Harris, Anthony Morrow and Korver so basically 2 all stars and a lot of other productive players on the roster. Surely that would be enough to equal Wade's and Paul Piece alone wouldn't it? I mean wouldn't you trade Wade for Smith and Horford? Certain Paul Piece for Smith and Horford right?

[Peoriabird]

So Josh Smith is a superstar on the same level as Wade. You heard it here on Hawksquawk first folks.

English will help you understand the question of what is the different between Wade successfully convincing Labron and bosh to come to the heat and Smith successfully convincing Howard to come to the hawks is not a question that compares Josh Smith and Wade basketball abilities but rather their ability to influence their friend to join the team.

[Sothron]

English will help you understand the question of what is the different between Wade successfully convincing Labron and bosh to come to the heat and Smith successfully convincing Howard to come to the hawks is not a question that compares Josh Smith and Wade basketball abilities but rather their ability to influence their friend to join the team.

English will help? You mean Alex English? I didn't realize he came out of retirement. You are the one disagreeing about superstars. Wade was able to convince Lebron (superstar) and Bosh (almost superstar) to come to play with him, Wade, because he was a superstar. Josh Smith is not a superstar. If he was somehow able to convince Howard to come and stay here it still wouldn't change what Josh is. The net positive for Atlanta would be having Howard (superstar) an All Star level guy (Josh) and the potential to convince a superstar in free agency (CP3) to come here.

[AHF]

How would this be any different if Josh Smith draws Howard to Atlanta?

If Josh recruits Howard and Paul it wouldn't be any different. If Josh recruits Howard, we are still much further down the championship path so that it to the good as well. The main difference is that Josh will never, ever be an NBA Finals MVP because he will never be an efficient and dominant scorer unlike Pierce, Wade, Rick Barry, etc. If he is a team's best player in a finals series, that team is going to lose. That isn't the case for Wade. Bottomline is that I will be thrilled if Josh recruits an elite player like Howard to want to build here in Atlanta like Wade did with Lebron (and to a much lesser extent Bosh) in Miami.

[Peoriabird]

If Josh recruits Howard and Paul it wouldn't be any different. If Josh recruits Howard, we are still much further down the championship path so that it to the good as well. The main difference is that Josh will never, ever be an NBA Finals MVP because he will never be an efficient and dominant scorer unlike Pierce, Wade, Rick Barry, etc. If he is a team's best player in a finals series, that team is going to lose. That isn't the case for Wade. Bottomline is that I will be thrilled if Josh recruits an elite player like Howard to want to build here in Atlanta like Wade did with Lebron (and to a much lesser extent Bosh) in Miami.

So Danny Ferry does have a sound plan to clear cap space and hope that the current players can recruit super stars like Howard to come to Atlanta. For a minute there, some poster had me thinking that we were headed in the wrong direction. Meaning that we would never win a title unless we tanked and found a super star in the draft and then had him recruit other super star players. Someone even insinuated that you had to have a final MVP before you could think about recruitment.

[AHF]

So Danny Ferry does have a sound plan to clear cap space and hope that the current players can recruit super stars like Howard to come to Atlanta. For a minute there, some poster had me thinking that we were headed in the wrong direction. Meaning that we would never win a title unless we tanked and found a super star in the draft and then had him recruit other super star players. Someone even insinuated that you had to have a final MVP before you could think about recruitment.

I am saying that I am 100% thrilled if we can recruit a par of studs like Howard and one other stud to Atlanta. That doesn't change the fact that we would be a bit outside the norm as far as the typical build for prior champions but I think having an MVP caliber player (Dwight) is right in line with most of the prior champions and the fact is that usually you don't get those players in their prime in FA or by trade without destroying your team to get them (which is why you see so few teams without home drafted studs). I don't think tanking is the only way up the mountain but I do think that, for example, signing Harden and Ibaka is a path to mediocrity so you are better off tanking than signing two guys like Ibaka with your cap space and hoping that you transform your team into the next 2005 Pistons.

[Peoriabird]

the fact is that usually you don't get those players in their prime in FA or by trade without destroying your team to get them (which is why you see so few teams without home drafted studs).

I don't know what to do to convince you that this has been the trend over the past 10-12 years. You saw it in Miami, you saw it in Boston, You saw it to a lesser extent in LA because the lakers did trade for Kobe but the 1st 3 championships were because of Shaq and he was a free agent signing. You saw it in Detroit. And Miami again with Shaq

I don't think tanking is the only way up the mountain but I do think that, for example, signing Harden and Ibaka is a path to mediocrity so you are better off tanking than signing two guys like Ibaka with your cap space and hoping that you transform your team into the next 2005 Pistons.

Agreed, a good Scoring guard that is average or below defensively and decent hybrid C/F won't get us passed Miami

[AHF]

I don't know what to do to convince you that this has been the trend over the past 10-12 years. You saw it in Miami, you saw it in Boston, You saw it to a lesser extent in LA because the lakers did trade for Kobe but the 1st 3 championships were because of Shaq and he was a free agent signing. You saw it in Detroit. And Miami again with Shaq

Part of the problem is that there isn't a unified trend that I can identify. Boston traded multiple lottery picks and assets in a free market deal for two veteran studs in Garnett and Allen and added them to their borderline HOF swingman in Paul Pierce. That was tanking and then using assets developed through the draft (lottery picks, Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Telfair, Gomez, etc.) to trade for stars. Miami was a totally different situation where three players conspired to have 2 of the 3 leave their current teams and sign in the same place while they were currently under contract. Then they executed that leaving their current teams little to no leverage to shop them ala Carmelo or Dwight. That was simply clearing cap space and allowing collusion to play itself out. LA acquired Kobe in the draft and is the only team to ever control him since he was an unproven upside play on draft day. He was the building block for their recent championships. That is no different than the Bulls acquiring Scottie Pippen in the draft (through trade) or Seattle acquiring Ray Allen by draft day trade or Dallas acquiring Dirk by draft day trade or Minnesota acquiring Kevin Love, etc. Going through the draft is more similar to Boston (had they hit a home run on one of their high picks during the lottery seasons post-Antoine Walker) but is fundamentally different than the Miami model. I agree that stars are moving themselves more often today which is why I am excited about the idea of recruiting Howard + 1 to Atlanta as an approach to build a contender here. That is why I am willing to deal for Howard without an extension. If he resigns and recruits a buddy, then we are golden. If he leaves, then we go to the lottery. Both of those ideas are superior for me to today's roster + 2 Ibaka level players.

[Peoriabird]

Part of the problem is that there isn't a unified trend that I can identify. Boston traded multiple lottery picks and assets in a free market deal for two veteran studs in Garnett and Allen and added them to their borderline HOF swingman in Paul Pierce. That was tanking and then using assets developed through the draft (lottery picks, Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Telfair, Gomez, etc.) to trade for stars.

Boston tried to build through the draft by getting rid of employee #8 and it didn't work...They kept on losing because their draft choices didn't pan out. They then scrapped that plan and sold their assess before the rest of the league found out that Boston's assets was fools gold

Miami was a totally different situation where three players conspired to have 2 of the 3 leave their current teams and sign in the same place while they were currently under contract. Then they executed that leaving their current teams little to no leverage to shop them ala Carmelo or Dwight. That was simply clearing cap space and allowing collusion to play itself out.

Agreed

LA acquired Kobe in the draft and is the only team to ever control him since he was an unproven upside play on draft day. He was the building block for their recent championships. That is no different than the Bulls acquiring Scottie Pippen in the draft (through trade) or Seattle acquiring Ray Allen by draft day trade or Dallas acquiring Dirk by draft day trade or Minnesota acquiring Kevin Love, etc. Going through the draft is more similar to Boston (had they hit a home run on one of their high picks during the lottery seasons post-Antoine Walker) but is fundamentally different than the Miami model.

The Laker didn't tank or have lottery draft picks to trade for Kobe's rights. What they did was trade Divac for the 13th pick in the draft because they couldn't advance to the finals because Divac was too soft. They then went out and replaced Divac with Shaq.

agree that stars are moving themselves more often today which is why I am excited about the idea of recruiting Howard + 1 to Atlanta as an approach to build a contender here. That is why I am willing to deal for Howard without an extension. If he resigns and recruits a buddy, then we are golden. If he leaves, then we go to the lottery. Both of those ideas are superior for me to today's roster + 2 Ibaka level players.

I would not deal Horford/Teague and draft picks for Howard because Smith and Howard won't be enough. And I certainly wouldn't deal an all star and a building block for a player that would leave after 1 year. That's just asinine! Everybody keeps talking about that extra year that the bird rights offer to the free agent as an incentive for the player to stay. Unless Howard has a career ending injury, he will be paid more with his next contract. Edited July 24, 2012 by Peoriabird

[AHF]

I would not deal Horford/Teague and draft picks for Howard because Smith and Howard won't be enough. And I certainly wouldn't deal an all star and a building block for a player that would leave after 1 year. That's just asinine! Everybody keeps talking about that extra year that the bird rights offer to the free agent as an incentive for the player to stay. Unless Howard has a career ending injury, he will be paid more with his next contract.

This is my last post on the subject because I don't want to jump the track on this thread into a Howard thread, but a Teague, Horford, Atl 2013 pick, Houston 1st round pick for Howard deal allows us to sign a second max free agent. I would gamble for the possibility of adding Howard plus one (Paul would be ideal). If we miss out on Howard, I don't see a FA signing strategy that excites me (Paul won't come here without Howard and what other elite players would consider us at that point?) and a Horford/Josh team will likely not be in position to draft another star during Horford's current contract. I acknowledge it is a risk but the upside seems worth it to me. If he wants to go to NJ, LA, etc. then we can acquire assets in a S&T as well.