Lou Williams (Audio)

[Ruckus]

And couldn't get out of the first round when it all depended on him.

Yep. Wade needed Shaq in '06 but did play exceptionally well in that Finals series. This year they could have won it without him completely. Wade is a good player but is way overrated.

[EazyRoc]

And couldn't get out of the first round when it all depended on him.

basketball is a team sport.

[Ruckus]

basketball is a team sport.

This is true. But the stars/leaders get to take all the credit for winning so they must take credit for losing as well.

[AtLaS]

Wade did get his team out of the first round prior to 2006. And he's definitely not the player he was a couple years ago, but for a few years he was easily a top 5 player in the NBA. And, Dwyane deserves a lot more credit than Shaq for the 2006 title. Wade absolutely dominated. Now I will agree that he wouldn't have won it without Shaq, but everyone needs another player to win a championship. Wade was absolutely a superstar and put in one of the best finals performances in recent history.

[AtLaS]

This is true. But the stars/leaders get to take all the credit for winning so they must take credit for losing as well.

Kobe couldn't get out of the first round prior to the Gasol trade. I could name a TON or similar stories, the fact is that players have to have help. Wade had a terrible team around him after Shaq departed.

[AtLaS]

I just don't see Wade as a superstar sorry...A very good player just like Mello, CP3 and Darren William but not a superstar like Labron or Howard

So you think LeBron would've signed in Miami if Wade wasn't on the team? Get real.

[Sothron]

Sothron is right. A superstar is needed to win a title, there have been two exceptions. The best way to acquire one is via the draft. If you're one of the top destinations, it is easier to acquire someone through a trade or free agency. We aren't. The others try to count Miami as an example of a team that won titles with trades/signings but forget that Shaq only agreed to go there because Wade was already there. Same with LeBron and Bosh, they wouldn't have signed with Miami without Wade being a part of the team. Once you have a star player and a solid team, stars will want to align. We don't have that.

It is refreshing to see someone else sees it correctly. The only way you win is with superstars and once you get one you greatly increase the chance to get a second. There is no way Lebron and Bosh go to Miami unless Wade is there.

[Peoriabird]

We were getting out of the 1st round but according to Hatesquawk, our player sucked! Wade gets beat by these same dead beat Hawks and he is still great! Can someone explain this?

[AHF]

On every single team during the cherry-picked time frame above (Heat through Shaq Lakers) there was a First or Second team All-NBA stud who was the team's best or second best player and/or was the Finals MVP that was drafted by the champion team except for the Pistons. IMO, looking at those years only proves that you have had to have that elite talent that you drafted for the vast majority of champions and the case only gets stronger as you start taking in the Jordan Bulls, Thomas Pistons, Bird Celtics, Magic Lakers, etc. all the way back to the 1970's.Even when you look at building through FA, the Miami model supports drafting your home grown stud because that is the way you lure another stud to the team. Lebron wasn't signing with a team without getting someone who could carry the load for him and take the pressure away.

Edited July 23, 2012 by AHF

[AtLaS]

We were getting out of the 1st round but according to Hatesquawk, our player sucked! Wade gets beat by these same dead beat Hawks and he is still great! Can someone explain this?

Wade won an NBA title as the best player on his team and had one of the best Finals performances in recent NBA history. After Shaq left, he had a terrible team around him because they traded all of their assets for Shaq. What did Kobe do in the playoffs prior to the Gasol trade?

[AHF]

Dwyane deserves a lot more credit than Shaq for the 2006 title.

He was Final MVP. Apparently, you weren't the only one who noticed that he was the biggest impact player in the finals.

[AtLaS]

EDIT: Regarding the Hawks/Heat series, we were better at every position against Miami except for SG (where we had an all-star) and they STILL took us to 7 games. Not exactly Wade's fault. BTW it's funny you hate on Wade for losing in the first round, in 09-10 he put up 33/7/6 on 56% shooting and they lost in 5 games. What more could he do?

He was Final MVP. Apparently, you weren't the only one who noticed that he was the biggest impact player in the finals.

I was addressing the others who were crediting Shaq and trying to downplay Wade's performance in that series. Obviously the world knows who was responsible for that title.

[Peoriabird]

He was Final MVP. Apparently, you weren't the only one who noticed that he was the biggest impact player in the finals.

So Was Chauncey Billups in 2004. What's your point? Edited July 23, 2012 by Peoriabird

[AtLaS]

So Was Chauncey Billups in 2004. What's your point?

Did you seriously just make that comparison? It's obvious that you didn't follow either of those series' or are purposely trying to ignore.

[Peoriabird]

Did you seriously just make that comparison? It's obvious that you didn't follow either of those series' or are purposely trying to ignore.

Just messing with you man!

[AHF]

So Was Chauncey Billups in 2004. What's your point?

Wade was drafted by Miami, was second team All-NBA that season, and was Finals MVP. That means the Miami title was won with a drafted star leading the way in the finals. Wade also was 6th in MVP voting that season while Shaq received exactly zero votes. This was not a team that was dominated by Shaq with Wade along for the ride. That Miami team was not one of the few exceptional teams that won without a drafted talent in an absolutely critical and dominant role.

[Peoriabird]

Wade was drafted by Miami, was second team All-NBA that season, and was Finals MVP. That means the Miami title was won with a drafted star leading the way in the finals. Wade also was 6th in MVP voting that season while Shaq received exactly zero votes. This was not a team that was dominated by Shaq with Wade along for the ride. That Miami team was not one of the few exceptional teams that won without a drafted talent in an absolutely critical and dominant role.

O.K. So that makes 3 out of the last 15 Champions with a drafted super star leader of the team. Still a pretty low percentage

[MaceCase]

O.K. So that makes 3 out of the last 15 Champions with a drafted super star leader of the team. Still a pretty low percentage

I've had this same argument with Diesel in the past and AHF already expanded upon it on this very page. You can narrow your parameter to a drafted player being the very "best" but only 2 teams dating back to the 70s has won a title without a player they acquired in the draft being at the minimum 2nd best on their squad. Expand it out to the just making it to the Finals and you'll have no player that was acquired through the draft being worse than 3rd on their team.

[AHF]

O.K. So that makes 3 out of the last 15 Champions with a drafted super star leader of the team. Still a pretty low percentage

LMAO at Dirk and Kobe not being considered drafted assets. THEY NEVER PLAYED A GAME FOR ANOTHER TEAM. In your mind, if we had dealt Josh Smith for the #1 pick and then our #1 pick won us a title that wouldn't have been an asset developed from the draft. Come on.

2012 Wade

2011 Dirk (Finals MVP)

2010 Kobe (Finals MVP)

2009 Kobe (Finals MVP)

2008 Pierce (Finals MVP)

2007 Duncan / Parker (Finals MVP)

2006 Wade (Finals MVP)

2005 Duncan (Finals MVP)

2004 EXCEPTION TO THE RULE Pistons lack All-NBA star that was drafted

2003 Duncan (Finals MVP)

2002 Kobe* (Not Finals MVP)

2001 Kobe* (Not Finals MVP)

2000 Kobe* (Not Finals MVP)

1999 Duncan (Finals MVP)

1998 Jordan

1997 Jordan

1996 Jordan

1995 Hakeem

1994 Hakeem

1993 Jordan

1992 Jordan

1991 Jordan

1990 Thomas

1989 Thomas

1988 Magic

1987 Magic

1986 Bird

1985 Magic* (Not Finals MVP)

1984 Bird

1983 Dr. J* (Not Finals MVP)

1982 Magic

1981 Bird

1980 Magic

1979 Dennis Johnson (Finals MVP drafted by the champion Sonics)

1978 Wes Unseld (Finals MVP drafted by the champion Bullets)

1977 Bill Walton (Finals MVP drafted by the champion Trailblazers)

1976 Jo Jo White (Finals MVP drafted by the champion Celtics)

1975 Rick Barry (Finals MVP drafted by the champion Warriors)

1974 John Havlicek (Finals MVP drafted by the champion Celtics)

So you can name 1 of the last 40 NBA champions that didn't have a drafted, All-NBA, star playing at least as the second best player on their team in the NBA finals.

Of the last 40 NBA champions, 7 of them didn't draft the finals MVP:

2012 Miami Heat - Lebron

2004 Detroit Pistons - Billups

2000-02 Lakers - Shaq

1985 Lakers - Kareem

1983 Sixers - Moses

It has historically been essential to have a home grown star on the team who can dominate. In the Lebron era, the best you can say is that having the home grown star who can recruit can also be a ticket to the finals.

Edited July 23, 2012 by AHF

[Peoriabird]

I think that you are missing the point...No one is arguing that you need super stars to win championship but rather whether tanking works. The lakers did not tank before getting Kobe so let that one go please. I'll give you Dirk even though he wasn't drafted by Dallas, they were in the lottery. Duncan and Jordan were drafted by there championship teams and so was Wade so even if I give you those 4, that still leaves 8 other time that a free agent or a trade resulted in a super star leading the team to a championship. And by the way, I know that you aren't calling the 2012 team Wade's team or the 08 Celtics Pierce team