Who are the future max players the hawks should target?

[capstone21]

The "no duh" max players:

Dwight

Paul

Bynum

These are the unchallenged top of the free agent crop but many feel they will be unattainable. Yes Bynum is included because 1) He's at position of rarity 2) Has shown he can get the stats 3) will have a market.

The "Buyer beware" max players:

Josh

Al Jefferson

Monta Ellis (claims he's opting out next season)

These are the guys that will be mostly associated with desperate GMs if they receive a max contract. These are guys you are overpaying for on past merits as it's doubtful they have much wiggle room to improve much if any over the life of their new contracts. Overall young, yes, but in terms of NBA experience and minutes played they are well into their primes already.

The "no duh" off of rookie scale max players:

James Harden

Ty Lawson

People can talk about paying for "mediocrity" with this bunch but there are a few facts to consider

1) Their "max" value is not close to a 8-9 year vet's max value.

2) They actually have future potential left in their games considering what they've accomplished within only 3 years.

Lawson you can argue based on the overabundance of his position but he's firmly in the 2nd tier below the "God" tier of Paul, Rondo, Westbrook, etc. Harden you can say is going to be Joe 2.0 but you can just as easily make a comparison to Toronto Tracy McGrady.

The off of rookie scale "near" max players:

Steph Curry (his ankles are near Grant Hill status)

Nikola Pekovic

These are restricted guys that very easily could jump into that max tier. Pekovic is older but he's a more than capable center and Curry just needs to overcome his chronic ankle issues.

I would put Bynum in the buyer beware category....the dude's knees are fragile and I think he is a complimentary player with size.

[Randy]

Its easier to figure out who not to get than who to get or who we can get. I was dead set against the JJ max contract, but as it turns out unloading it was possible. Maybe a max contract for Josh would be unloadable to, so while I would reallly really really really rather he didn't get one, if it turns out he's the best we can get, then maybe its ok.Who can we get - I'd guess a disgruntled superstar might be our best hope for a trade. If Dwight strikes out in LA, then maybe him, Maybe Carmelo gets annoyed in NY. Rondo in Boston? I think ultimately if you get one superstar getting the second one is a whole lot easier.

[yungsta]

This is why I am one of the few who is for the hawks going to a full blown tank so we can get that elite talent! One thing I have a new faith in is our ability to scout.Alot of people are against it but we HAVE TO if we want to build a championship core. We are not in the .1 percent that can go from good to elite and simply retool everyone couple of seasons.Ferry wants us to retool and want us to remain a playoff team at the same time the only franchises that can do that would be like the lakers. Players are pushing and shoving trying to play for the lakers. The lakers is that like a hot lady that everyone wants to bang. The hawks are like the average chubby looking chick that you would bang but dont want to be seen in public with.I know in the lottery the chances of getting a star player in the lottery is VERY SLIM but we have to atleast try. You cant win the lottery if you dont play it.Honestly I believe our chances of winning the draft lottery is higher than a superstar signing here.

Edited October 25, 2012 by yungsta

[Wretch]

Its easier to figure out who not to get than who to get or who we can get. I was dead set against the JJ max contract, but as it turns out unloading it was possible. Maybe a max contract for Josh would be unloadable to, so while I would reallly really really really rather he didn't get one, if it turns out he's the best we can get, then maybe its ok. Who can we get - I'd guess a disgruntled superstar might be our best hope for a trade. If Dwight strikes out in LA, then maybe him, Maybe Carmelo gets annoyed in NY. Rondo in Boston? I think ultimately if you get one superstar getting the second one is a whole lot easier.

See, I agree and disagree with some of what you say... I don't think you EVER settle in sports. Settling means you accept defeat. You accept that you are not the best and can't win. If that's the case, then you just leave the court and go home. You don't even play. We can't settle on Josh Smith or Al Horford (Hypothetically speakin here). That's what Pete Babcock did. He decided that rather than gamble and chance greatness, he would rather build "safely" around "good" talent. We haven't stopped doing that. Good will never get you over the hump. Just a team that gets slapped around that nobody (fans, media, players) cares about. ...but you are right on the money about what happens once you get a star. Then everything becomes crystal clear and you build the team around that player. Once teams find their Dirk or Derrick Rose or Dwight Howard or Paul Pierce, fitting the right players around him is MUCH easier. It's actually quite telling when you look at what happens after the "star" is found... Look at the coaches and the players that are let go in the aftermath. The team doesn't even really take shape until that guy emerges. Yet...we seem to have this mentality that we can just build the team and plug in the player we want. Or just keep the "good" team, win games, and be fine.

[AHF]

Just to piggyback on my comment yesterday, Harden is a guy I would go after. He is a top 3 SG today and for the foreseeable future. He has no injury profile. He was a legit Olympic selection and will be a core guy on that team come 2016. While he benefits from Westbrook and Durant, it is notable what he did when he was only the court with Durant. With no Westbrook, Harden averaged > 29 ppg36 and Durant averaged >26 pp36. That indicates Westbrook may be holding Harden back rather than being a big boost to his numbers and it is notable that Harden outperformed Durant (as a scorer anyway) over that period of time and he did it efficiently. While a guy like Al Jefferson would never be on my list (is he top 5 at any position? not close), Harden definitely is.Lawson is a guy who is a tougher call to me and who I could pass on for big $$s even though I love his game.Carmelo is a superstar I would pass on. I don't like his attitude, don't like his focus on inefficient scoring, and don't think he will ever be lead dog on a great team. Rondo is problematic with his shooting but would be an interesting fit if we continue to go with Josh/Al. I can imagine a very interesting team with Rondo pushing the pace while Josh and Al get easy finishes on the break and Jenkins et al. bomb from the perimeter. Unlike Carmelo, that is a very intriguing vision even though it doesn't present the certainty that a true superstar pairing of Dwight/Paul would offer.

[HawkItus]

Just to piggyback on my comment yesterday, Harden is a guy I would go after. He is a top 3 SG today and for the foreseeable future. He has no injury profile. He was a legit Olympic selection and will be a core guy on that team come 2016. While he benefits from Westbrook and Durant, it is notable what he did when he was only the court with Durant. With no Westbrook, Harden averaged > 29 ppg36 and Durant averaged >26 pp36. That indicates Westbrook may be holding Harden back rather than being a big boost to his numbers and it is notable that Harden outperformed Durant (as a scorer anyway) over that period of time and he did it efficiently. While a guy like Al Jefferson would never be on my list (is he top 5 at any position? not close), Harden definitely is. Lawson is a guy who is a tougher call to me and who I could pass on for big $$s even though I love his game. Carmelo is a superstar I would pass on. I don't like his attitude, don't like his focus on inefficient scoring, and don't think he will ever be lead dog on a great team. Rondo is problematic with his shooting but would be an interesting fit if we continue to go with Josh/Al. I can imagine a very interesting team with Rondo pushing the pace while Josh and Al get easy finishes on the break and Jenkins et al. bomb from the perimeter. Unlike Carmelo, that is a very intriguing vision even though it doesn't present the certainty that a true superstar pairing of Dwight/Paul would offer.

People give Rondo too much credit. Even with the talent around him he has not ran highly rated offenses. He just isn't a superstar. The Celtics know this. That is why he has been on the trade block a few times. Well that and his attitude.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Just to piggyback on my comment yesterday, Harden is a guy I would go after. He is a top 3 SG today and for the foreseeable future. He has no injury profile. He was a legit Olympic selection and will be a core guy on that team come 2016. While he benefits from Westbrook and Durant, it is notable what he did when he was only the court with Durant. With no Westbrook, Harden averaged > 29 ppg36 and Durant averaged >26 pp36. That indicates Westbrook may be holding Harden back rather than being a big boost to his numbers and it is notable that Harden outperformed Durant (as a scorer anyway) over that period of time and he did it efficiently. While a guy like Al Jefferson would never be on my list (is he top 5 at any position? not close), Harden definitely is. Lawson is a guy who is a tougher call to me and who I could pass on for big $$s even though I love his game. Carmelo is a superstar I would pass on. I don't like his attitude, don't like his focus on inefficient scoring, and don't think he will ever be lead dog on a great team. Rondo is problematic with his shooting but would be an interesting fit if we continue to go with Josh/Al. I can imagine a very interesting team with Rondo pushing the pace while Josh and Al get easy finishes on the break and Jenkins et al. bomb from the perimeter. Unlike Carmelo, that is a very intriguing vision even though it doesn't present the certainty that a true superstar pairing of Dwight/Paul would offer.

Harden is definitely the guy to take a chance on. People can throw out catch phrases like "Batman" or "Robin" all they want. But the true key to all of this is to be able to properly identify the guys who can ball at a high level, and those who can't. Harden had a bad NBA Finals. But up until that series, that dude was damn good in his role. The main thing is that Harden has an All-Star skillset. The only thing left with him is to see if he has a superstar mindset. - He doesn't need people to set him up to score the basketball - He can pass the basketball and set up other people - When people DO set him up, he can knock down open jumpers at a high rate - He can get to the FT line as well as most 2 guards in the league From an offensive standpoint, he has a superstar-esque type of game. The only thing left is for he to prove that he can be the #1 guy. And the only way he can do that, is to leave the Thunder. And even then, it's still up to management to look for guys BETTER than him if possible . . or not be afraid to trade away good players around him, for a better talent(s). James Harden isn't Ben Gordon. Edited October 25, 2012 by northcyde

[Buzzard]

The "no duh" max players:

Dwight

Paul

Bynum

These are the unchallenged top of the free agent crop but many feel they will be unattainable. Yes Bynum is included because 1) He's at position of rarity 2) Has shown he can get the stats 3) will have a market.

The "Buyer beware" max players:

Josh

Al Jefferson

Monta Ellis (claims he's opting out next season)

These are the guys that will be mostly associated with desperate GMs if they receive a max contract. These are guys you are overpaying for on past merits as it's doubtful they have much wiggle room to improve much if any over the life of their new contracts. Overall young, yes, but in terms of NBA experience and minutes played they are well into their primes already.

The "no duh" off of rookie scale max players:

James Harden

Ty Lawson

People can talk about paying for "mediocrity" with this bunch but there are a few facts to consider

1) Their "max" value is not close to a 8-9 year vet's max value.

2) They actually have future potential left in their games considering what they've accomplished within only 3 years.

Lawson you can argue based on the overabundance of his position but he's firmly in the 2nd tier below the "God" tier of Paul, Rondo, Westbrook, etc. Harden you can say is going to be Joe 2.0 but you can just as easily make a comparison to Toronto Tracy McGrady.

The off of rookie scale "near" max players:

Steph Curry (his ankles are near Grant Hill status)

Nikola Pekovic

These are restricted guys that very easily could jump into that max tier. Pekovic is older but he's a more than capable center and Curry just needs to overcome his chronic ankle issues.

With our history of not being able to attract FA's, we will have to overpay. In order of my prefence: Lawson, Nikola, then Harden would be my targets.

[Buzzard]

I don't understand the max love for Harden. Did we not just trade away a max all-star SG who never got us past the 2nd round? Unless you think Harden is the 2nd coming of Jordan or a younger Kobe, max SG's should be avoided like the plague.

[TheFuzz]

See, I agree and disagree with some of what you say... I don't think you EVER settle in sports. Settling means you accept defeat. You accept that you are not the best and can't win. If that's the case, then you just leave the court and go home. You don't even play. We can't settle on Josh Smith or Al Horford (Hypothetically speakin here). That's what Pete Babcock did. He decided that rather than gamble and chance greatness, he would rather build "safely" around "good" talent. We haven't stopped doing that. Good will never get you over the hump. Just a team that gets slapped around that nobody (fans, media, players) cares about. ...but you are right on the money about what happens once you get a star. Then everything becomes crystal clear and you build the team around that player. Once teams find their Dirk or Derrick Rose or Dwight Howard or Paul Pierce, fitting the right players around him is MUCH easier. It's actually quite telling when you look at what happens after the "star" is found... Look at the coaches and the players that are let go in the aftermath. The team doesn't even really take shape until that guy emerges. Yet...we seem to have this mentality that we can just build the team and plug in the player we want. Or just keep the "good" team, win games, and be fine.

You had me until Paul Pierce. KG is the superstar. The difference between Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce ain't much IMO. On topic, I am not totally against blowing it up and rebuilding for the next couple of years because between Zeller, Shabazz and maybe Noel this year and then Wiggins, Parker and Randle the next year, there are some guys with the chance of becoming that superstar we've needed forever.

[Wretch]

Harden is definitely the guy to take a chance on. People can throw out catch phrases like "Batman" or "Robin" all they want. But the true key to all of this is to be able to properly identify the guys who can ball at a high level, and those who can't. Harden had a bad NBA Finals. But up until that series, that dude was damn good in his role. The main thing is that Harden has an All-Star skillset. The only thing left with him is to see if he has a superstar mindset. - He doesn't need people to set him up to score the basketball - He can pass the basketball and set up other people - When people DO set him up, he can knock down open jumpers at a high rate - He can get to the FT line as well as most 2 guards in the league From an offensive standpoint, he has a superstar-esque type of game. The only thing left is for he to prove that he can be the #1 guy. And the only way he can do that, is to leave the Thunder. And even then, it's still up to management to look for guys BETTER than him if possible . . or not be afraid to trade away good players around him, for a better talent(s). James Harden isn't Ben Gordon.

Hadoken ...shoryuken: http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_KmNZNT5xw Edited October 25, 2012 by Wretch

[Sothron]

I don't understand the max love for Harden. Did we not just trade away a max all-star SG who never got us past the 2nd round? Unless you think Harden is the 2nd coming of Jordan or a younger Kobe, max SG's should be avoided like the plague.

I agree with this. Harden can score because he two superstars around him. He plays average defense, he has no size advantage and he's only average at passing the ball. The only thing he does well is shoot. I honestly think you could put Anthony Morrow on that team with that situation and ask him just to shoot when he's open and he'd put up the same numbers. Life is easy when you have two superstars to take away all pressure on a jump shooter.

[Wretch]

I agree with this. Harden can score because he two superstars around him. He plays average defense, he has no size advantage and he's only average at passing the ball. The only thing he does well is shoot. I honestly think you could put Anthony Morrow on that team with that situation and ask him just to shoot when he's open and he'd put up the same numbers. Life is easy when you have two superstars to take away all pressure on a jump shooter.

I wouldn't be against signing Harden, but I wouldn't sign him with the intent of giving him the team (i.e. - building around HIM.)

[Sothron]

I wouldn't be against signing Harden, but I wouldn't sign him with the intent of giving him the team (i.e. - building around HIM.)

And that is exactly what it would take: literally Joe Johnson v 2.0 with a guy leaving a good but not great team to be "The Man" on another team and being paid max money to do it. We would be insane to do that. Let someone else waste a max contract on James Harden.

[Swatguy]

When the Clips come to town, J D should host a reception at Tyler Perry's studio With a Limo at the airport waiting for Chris Paul.When the Lakers come Dwight should get a standing ovation when introduced. At the beginning of the second half we chant "come back home, Come Back Home" in unison. It will not matter if anyone is offended, It matters that they know we want them here.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So we do nothing? Because you know that the 2 guys who are already established superstars ( Howard and Paul ) aren't coming here.And it's not about strictly building AROUND Harden. It's about acquiring the best talent possible. Who says that Harden will end up being the best guy on the team in 2 - 3 years? And who is to say that Harden won't elevate his game without Durant and Westbrook? I don't agree with MaceCase much, but he's dead on the money when he says that Harden could blossom much like Tracy McGrady did, when he left Toronto and got out from under the shadow of Vince Carter.So we don't pay Josh a MAX contract to keep him here. We don't pay Harden a MAX contract to bring him here. We surround Horford with journeymen type players, with only 3 years left on his contract. At that point, we may as well sell off Horford too, be bad for 2 - 4 years, and hope the team is good by 2017.It may all be a moot point anyway though.http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-extending-the-2009-draft-class/And keep this in mind about the Hawks. Joe Johnson was VERY GOOD in those first 2 years here . . with basically no one playing beside him. Josh was a good player defensively, but still learning his way offensively. Marvin was simply a solid player. Heck, in those days, we were depending on Tyronn Lue to be a 2nd scorer to JJ.Everybody knows the Hawks messed up 2 consecutive drafts in 2005 and 2006. At the minimum, our "core" for 7 years could've been Paul - JJ - Smith. And we can only speculate how good a guy like Paul could've made not only JJ, but Josh Smith.

[Swatguy]

Chris Paul very much wanted to come to Atlanta in the draft. So did Deron.Three near max contracts ala Miami could net a championship. A five of D12,Al,Josh,ANY2 and Paul is awesome with Lou, Zaza and Ivan coming off the bench(Scott, Jenkins). A guy like Cory Maggette would vetmin to play the 2.I'm talking Championship people!

[Sothron]

When the Clips come to town, J D should host a reception at Tyler Perry's studio With a Limo at the airport waiting for Chris Paul. When the Lakers come Dwight should get a standing ovation when introduced. At the beginning of the second half we chant "come back home, Come Back Home" in unison. It will not matter if anyone is offended, It matters that they know we want them here.

This is exactly the kind of aggressive forward thinking we need from Ferry and the new regime. This whole "well OBVIOUSLY Paul and Dwight will NEVER come here" is exactly the same kind of defeatist thinking we as fans have to eschew. Embrace change. Embrace the idea that Atlanta CAN BE a destination location for free agents.

[Plainview1981]

There is no one that the Hawks are going to get that will make them into a championship contender.

[Plainview1981]

Harden is definitely the guy to take a chance on. People can throw out catch phrases like "Batman" or "Robin" all they want. But the true key to all of this is to be able to properly identify the guys who can ball at a high level, and those who can't. Harden had a bad NBA Finals. But up until that series, that dude was damn good in his role. The main thing is that Harden has an All-Star skillset. The only thing left with him is to see if he has a superstar mindset. - He doesn't need people to set him up to score the basketball - He can pass the basketball and set up other people - When people DO set him up, he can knock down open jumpers at a high rate - He can get to the FT line as well as most 2 guards in the league From an offensive standpoint, he has a superstar-esque type of game. The only thing left is for he to prove that he can be the #1 guy. And the only way he can do that, is to leave the Thunder. And even then, it's still up to management to look for guys BETTER than him if possible . . or not be afraid to trade away good players around him, for a better talent(s). James Harden isn't Ben Gordon.

James Harden does NOT have what it takes to get to the next level. He gets a lot easier shots as the 3rd guy, but with all the pressure on him to deliver night in and night out, he would do slightly better than Joe at best.