Harden is Joe Johnson?!...Shhhhhhhiiiii

[AHF]

I love how everybody sniffs Harden's Jock after 2 games. Remember, he was traded right before these two games. Funny thing, teams haven't game planned for him and he's out there just having a field day because teams dont know what to expect... but just wait. Wait until the target is placed firmly on his back.. Wait until he sees a double team. Then let's talk.

I said before the season that he would have a better offensive season than JJ's career best. 80 more games so it is a long way away but he has already passed JJ's career best - including when he came here from Phoenix before anyone "game planned" for him or "knew what to expect" from him as a #1 option. JJ played with less talent than Houston currently has and played with more talent than it has. There is no excuse if JJ's best doesn't measure up. And if it doesn't, it won't take anything away from what he accomplished in Atlanta. JJ was well worth his first contract in Atlanta. Edited November 4, 2012 by AHF

[Sothron]

I don't see any Harden supporters after he crashed to Earth tonight when forced to play a backcourt that can actually defend. He shot a horrible 8-24 tonight against Portland. Our guards are going to give up a ton of points if we start Teague/Harris.

[DatWerkk]

I don't see any Harden supporters after he crashed to Earth tonight when forced to play a backcourt that can actually defend. He shot a horrible 8-24 tonight against Portland. Our guards are going to give up a ton of points if we start Teague/Harris.

I guess 24 points is crashing to Earth when you've been averaging over 40? But boy, you sure are a hard man to please. Third game in four nights. Second game in a back-to-back. Playing on a hurt ankle. And he still led the team in scoring. It was a pretty poor shooting game for both teams overall too. Guess he can't win them all...

[TheFuzz]

Man that's a bunch of bull. LOL . . anything to down Harden I guess. Ginobli does NOT have the all around offensive skills that Harden has. Manu was damn good as the #2 and #3 option in San Antonio. But in the few times that Duncan went down, it wasn't Manu who elevated his game to superstar level, it was Tony Parker. And that's why Tony is "the man" now, and not Manu's crippled self.

I meant that as a compliment. Agree to disagree, I suppose, because I admit I am a Ginobili nuthugger, but Ginobili in his prime was the one who put that team on his back in crunch time. He was a much better defender and passer than Harden. Harden has the tools to be a purer scorer than Ginobili, but Ginobili carried Argentina to a gold medal over the U.S. That's nothing to sneeze at. Edit: And Ginobili was a lot better then than Joe has ever been. I was pointing out that Harden and Ginobili have similar playstyles. Edited November 4, 2012 by TheFuzz

[Diesel]

I said before the season that he would have a better offensive season than JJ's career best. 80 more games so it is a long way away but he has already passed JJ's career best - including when he came here from Phoenix before anyone "game planned" for him or "knew what to expect" from him as a #1 option. JJ played with less talent than Houston currently has and played with more talent than it has. There is no excuse if JJ's best doesn't measure up. And if it doesn't, it won't take anything away from what he accomplished in Atlanta. JJ was well worth his first contract in Atlanta.

It's definitely possible that what you say is true. However, the facts still remain, he was traded two days before the season started. He plays for a better coach than Joe had as a Rookie. He has a better PG than Joe had and he has yet to see a double team. Let's just check out those 80 and see where they go. I seem to remember similar arguments being made for Michael Redd and John Salmon. Forgive me if I'm skeptical.

[MrMeltdown]

So, what great defensive players were Harden playing against last night?

[Admin]

Harden as the star is so much better than I expected he'd be. What really makes the Rockets tough though is how good their guards are at rebounding. If they had a good post scoring option they'd be a lock for the playoffs. Btw Derozan had 25 points or something like that against Joe last night. If Derozan can do that against him I'm sure Harden would have come close to his output against the Hawks. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I don't see any Harden supporters after he crashed to Earth tonight when forced to play a backcourt that can actually defend. He shot a horrible 8-24 tonight against Portland. Our guards are going to give up a ton of points if we start Teague/Harris.

Harden didn't knock down his open looks and had a few shots go in and out last night. And Matthews ( who is 6-5 . . 220 ) did do a good job defending him last night. Portland also threw out different looks at him with multiple players running out at him at times.

That still doesn't discount his talent as an elite guard in this league. As teams adjust to how they want to defend him, he'll adjust to them. He could've easily had 10 assists in that game had Delfino knocked down those open looks he had, but even he was ice cold.

The Rockets last night honestly looked like a tired team who had played 3 games in 4 nights, traveling from Detroit, to ATL, to Houston.

Let's not get it twisted though. That team is truly devoid of talent, and Harden and Lin are head and shoulders the best players on that team. There a team that shouldn't make the playoffs this year, or even finish above .500

That's why it's so disturbing that WE lost to them at home, simply because we couldn't stop Harden or keep them off the boards. That loss said a whole hell of a lot about us, Hopefully we're not nearly as bad as a talentless Rocket team with only one superstar and one good but erratic PG.

As for Harden, he goes through the defensive gauntlet the next 8 days.

vs Denver . . ( with Iguodala guarding him and Faried and McGee protecting the rim )

@ Memphis . . ( with Tony Allen guarding him and Gasol and Randolph clogging the lane )

vs Detroit . . ( with them probably making significant defensive adjustments )

vs Miami . . ( with Wade guarding him, and Battier and Lebron probably getting their shot at him too )

As a team, the Rockets should go 1 - 3 in that stretch. But don't be surprised if Harden does this in the next 4 games.

27 ppg

6 rebs

6 asst

45% FG

38% 3FG

If he does that against those teams, he's a legit superstar already.

[MaceCase]

Derozan must of developed into both an offensive and defensive superstar last night scoring 25 while holding Joe to 38% shooting.

[AHF]

I don't see any Harden supporters after he crashed to Earth tonight when forced to play a backcourt that can actually defend. He shot a horrible 8-24 tonight against Portland. Our guards are going to give up a ton of points if we start Teague/Harris.

I do like seeing that expectations are rising even among the Harden skeptics. Apparently, Harden's "crash to Earth" roughly equals JJ's career best productivity. (JJ's career high offensive season: 25 ppg, 4.4 apg, 4.2 rpg; Harden's "crash": 24 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists).

[Sothron]

I do like seeing that expectations are rising even among the Harden skeptics. Apparently, Harden's "crash to Earth" roughly equals JJ's career best productivity. (JJ's career high offensive season: 25 ppg, 4.4 apg, 4.2 rpg; Harden's "crash": 24 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists).

I guess you forgot something called field goal percentage and three point percentage as well? Harden was awful in that Portland game. He was chucking shots and it showed in his stats.

[DChawk]

Just saying....

[AHF]

I guess you forgot something called field goal percentage and three point percentage as well? Harden was awful in that Portland game. He was chucking shots and it showed in his stats.

Good thing JJ never had low shooting percentages (ummm.....like his 38% from the floor in his first game this season!). Because Harden looks terrible compared to JJ once you go to the %s, doesn't he? Look at these numbers and see how JJ punks Harden! 2012-13 Harden .642 ts% JJ: 474 ts% 2011-12 playoffs Harden .605 ts% JJ: .458 ts% 2011-12 regular season Harden .660 ts% JJ: .557 ts% 2010-11 playoffs Harden .634 ts% JJ: .522 ts% 2010-11 regular season Harden .598 ts% JJ: .517 ts% 2009-10 playoffs Harden .642 ts% JJ: 474 ts% 2009-10 regular season Harden .584 ts% JJ: .538 ts% * * * * JJ definitely wins when it comes to being the more efficient scorer and one day the numbers will stop getting in the way of that reality (because it really is a huge gap until then, isn't it?).

[Sothron]

Good thing JJ never had low shooting percentages (ummm.....like his 38% from the floor in his first game this season!). Because Harden looks terrible compared to JJ once you go to the %s, doesn't he? Look at these numbers and see how JJ punks Harden! 2012-13 Harden .642 ts% JJ: 474 ts% 2011-12 playoffs Harden .605 ts% JJ: .458 ts% 2011-12 regular season Harden .660 ts% JJ: .557 ts% 2010-11 playoffs Harden .634 ts% JJ: .522 ts% 2010-11 regular season Harden .598 ts% JJ: .517 ts% 2009-10 playoffs Harden .642 ts% JJ: 474 ts% 2009-10 regular season Harden .584 ts% JJ: .538 ts% * * * * JJ definitely wins when it comes to being the more efficient scorer and one day the numbers will stop getting in the way of that reality (because it really is a huge gap until then, isn't it?).

You are the one that made the comparison. The only comparison I made between the two players is that their contract situations were similar and just like with Joe I don't think Harden is worthy of a max deal. Harden has the life of the deal to prove me wrong or correct.

[AHF]

You are the one that made the comparison. The only comparison I made between the two players is that their contract situations were similar and just like with Joe I don't think Harden is worthy of a max deal. Harden has the life of the deal to prove me wrong or correct.

A lot of people made the comparison on their actual play. Harden will easily outperform JJ's career peak as an offensive option if he doesn't run into major injury issues. Personally, I think JJ was worth his first deal and not worth the second deal and that Harden will be superior to JJ over his first deal. Whether that is worth a max price, is a different item of debate. When you come saying that Harden's worst game represents a crash to earth and it turns out his numbers are similar to JJ's career peak and that his efficiency over the season to date is MUCH MUCH better than anything JJ has ever done (and is consistent with his number from last season), that says he is a better player in your mind to me because otherwise you wouldn't consider a 24/6/5 game a crash to earth. There would be a lower threshold for him. Harden's "crash" game looks a lot like a lot of JJ's games from the 2006-07 season like Game 1 - 9-23 FGA, 25 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds and much better than the bad ones like: Game 22 - 6-16 FGA, 12 points Game 23 - 4-17 FGA, 10 points Game 24 - 5-13 FGA, 11 points Game 29 - 6-24 FGA, 13 points etc. Harden will have worse games than 24/6/5 on a bad shooting night but his overall numbers will be better than any season in JJ's career. Edited November 5, 2012 by AHF

[Sothron]

A lot of people made the comparison on their actual play. Harden will easily outperform JJ's career peak as an offensive option if he doesn't run into major injury issues. Personally, I think JJ was worth his first deal and not worth the second deal and that Harden will be superior to JJ over his first deal. Whether that is worth a max price, is a different item of debate. When you come saying that Harden's worst game represents a crash to earth and it turns out his numbers are similar to JJ's career peak and that his efficiency over the season to date is MUCH MUCH better than anything JJ has ever done (and is consistent with his number from last season), that says he is a better player in your mind to me because otherwise you wouldn't consider a 24/6/5 game a crash to earth. There would be a lower threshold for him. Harden's "crash" game looks a lot like a lot of JJ's games from the 2006-07 season like Game 1 - 9-23 FGA, 25 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds and much better than the bad ones like: Game 22 - 6-16 FGA, 12 points Game 23 - 4-17 FGA, 10 points Game 24 - 5-13 FGA, 11 points Game 29 - 6-24 FGA, 13 points etc. Harden will have worse games than 24/6/5 on a bad shooting night but his overall numbers will be better than any season in JJ's career.

I think at the end the year he'll struggle with 20-23 ppg on bad shooting numbers and we already know his defense isn't that good *unlike JJ's which is All NBA level* but my point was always about the contracts. And you can't defend 8-24 shooting as anything other than bad if we want to get dogmatic over numbers. James Harden is simply a B level player that got a max deal and didn't deserve it.

[AHF]

I think at the end the year he'll struggle with 20-23 ppg on bad shooting numbers and we already know his defense isn't that good *unlike JJ's which is All NBA level* but my point was always about the contracts. And you can't defend 8-24 shooting as anything other than bad if we want to get dogmatic over numbers. James Harden is simply a B level player that got a max deal and didn't deserve it.

I'll tell you what I defend as really, really good. Harden's TS% this season. There isn't a SG that looks good if you pick out their worst game out of every 3 they play and ignore the better 2. Kobe has never had a max level season by that standard of judging. The net on this season for Harden will be a ppg number that JJ wishes he could put up and a TS% that JJ wishes he could have put up year after year during his prime. I.e., this season for Harden will surpass JJ's career best offensive season. Edited November 5, 2012 by AHF

[Sothron]

Another horrible night from Harden. Amazing how when he faces guys that can actually defend and not just have small backcourts like Detroit or Atlanta to shoot over what happens. 5-15 last night with six turnovers. He's btw averaging five turnovers a game and he's shot 1 for his last 11 on three pointers and has shot .333 from the field the last two games. Clearly worth a max contract.

[AHF]

Another horrible night from Harden. Amazing how when he faces guys that can actually defend and not just have small backcourts like Detroit or Atlanta to shoot over what happens. 5-15 last night with six turnovers. He's btw averaging five turnovers a game and he's shot 1 for his last 11 on three pointers and has shot .333 from the field the last two games. Clearly worth a max contract.

His 25.6 PER on the year destroys anything Joe has ever done. His .601 true shooting % is great. The fact that he is getting to the line 10 times per game is a big part of that. 4.4 topg is not good, although the 2.2 steals per game helps offset it. Both those numbers will come down. Let's see where we are in a month or two on this one. I am quite confident, Harden will blow Joe out of the water. Joe wishes his 10.4 PER and his .449 TS% looked anything like Harden's 25.6 PER and .601 TS%.

[Sothron]

His 25.6 PER on the year destroys anything Joe has ever done. His .601 true shooting % is great. The fact that he is getting to the line 10 times per game is a big part of that. 4.4 topg is not good, although the 2.2 steals per game helps offset it. Both those numbers will come down. Let's see where we are in a month or two on this one. I am quite confident, Harden will blow Joe out of the water. Joe wishes his 10.4 PER and his .449 TS% looked anything like Harden's 25.6 PER and .601 TS%.

Whose talking about Joe? I already told you I never compared the players I'm comparing the situations. I'm talking about your boy Harden. I said he's not worth a max contract and he's proving me right in spades now that's facing teams that have guards that can defend. Unless you think averaging 5 turnovers a game and shooting .333 from the field and whatever 1-11 from three point counts as "max player" status, of course.