Shareef needs to be traded

[Packfill]

Jamison's game, while different in style then Reef's, is similar in substance. They are both undersized power forwards that are not great rebounders or defenders. Neither has the ability to play on the perimeter for extended periods. Heck, Robinson was a better fit with his mid-range game! (and I am definitely of the opinion that the Hawks are better off without the Dog).

The Hawks are better off waiting till the off-season where they can unload expiring contracts or waiting two years and reloading then.

[Playmaker0017]

Chillz,

Also, I don't think JT is playing with any real fire or passion. He just runs around really fast. That isn't playing with passion any more than Shaq looking big... they are what they are.

JT did NOTHING last night until the final garbage minutes when he quickly went off for 15.

JT hasn't even tried to step up this year.

I don't fault him, because I think JT and Reef are doing what they are told. It is killing both their games. Just compare their stats currently to their lifelong stats... they aren't being utilized effectively.

I would take Brian Hill, Doc, Wilkens... anyone as coach right now. I think Stotts made us hustle on defense, and we are now starting to lose that.

Play.

[Diesel]

The style is what makes all the difference...

Again for the definition of tweener (which some of you rely on too heavily) see Toni Kukoc.

When you see Toni.. IF he were healthy and our SF, we wouldn't be talking about draft picks, we'd be talking championship?

I've learned from the mystery of Antwan Walker and Paul Pierce.

Now these guys kept Boston in the playoffs when they had really nobody else on the team. And for those 2 years, those guys game had the same substance. Low percentage shooters who put up a lot of threes and played average to below average defense. However, what made the difference was their style... Pierce could do it all. Walker was a pretty strong scorer.

The same is true of Detroit. They have a lot of defensive pieces.. NO offense save halmilton. What made it work was the likes of Billups... A difference in style.

What we have here is very predictable.

If a team clogs the middle, it forces us to go to what we know... Shoot the three.

1. Theo is not an offensive threat.

2. Jackson, Glover, JT will only shoot from outside when given the outside shot.

The team breaks down to a team that Lives and dies by the three.

YET...

bring in Jamison for Theo..

We get:

1. Scoring from Jamison to open up the middle. Jamison is no big Dog but he's a good scorer who can hit the mid range shots.

2. Scoring for Nazr which will open up the post.

3. All this attention inside the three line will leave Jackson, JT open.

4. Glover is the power off the bench.

Everything becomes better by the addition of another scorer.

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=183977

[chillzatl]

and have had the same results. Are we going to dump stotts, move on to a third coach and continue to ignore the fact that we have no players on this team that play with fire or desire?

At some point, when the car won't win the race, you have to stop changing the steering wheel and start replacing performance parts. We've replaced the wheel once and now we're talking about doing it again? Stotts may not be perfect. But [censored], what do you expect him to do when he has players on the floor that give no effort??

Your synopsis about "system" is lost on me. I refuse to believe that we are losing because this team lacks a cohesive system when, for the last 4 losses, EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD TALKS ABOUT THE LACK OF EFFORT. That doesn't have a thing to do with the coaches system and has EVERYTHING to do with players that DO NOT WANT IT.

Shareef got his ass handed to him by Etan Thomas and Kenyon Martin because both those players wanted it MORE. We've seen that [censored] all too often from Reef. When he wants it, he's dominant. But that's the problem, he only wants it once a month....

[Diesel]

If we had Chris Webber with this team, things would be the same.

If we had anybody else save: Duncan, KG, and possibly Oneal, things would be no different. It's not Reef... It's what we have with Reef.

A Center that doesn't rebound well.

A PG who can't run the offense.

A SG who can't shoot.

That's more of the problem than Reef's rebounding and scoring?

Our Starting C is pulling down 6.8 rpg.

That's a [censored] Shame.

Our Starting SG is shooting 33 percent from 3. That's a [censored] shame.

How many assists does JT get Now? Almost 5 a game?

And in the grand scheme of the offense, Reef is the 4th option (by FGA)...

Come on Chillz.

Put half of the PFs in the league in this same situation and you would get the same outcome.

[chillzatl]

I disagree man. We have a lot of problems.

We have weak rebounding Centers.

We have PG's that can't run an offense.

We have a PF that could be a star and doesn't want it bad enough.

Those were the same problems we had last year and we blamed the record on the coach. A year later, we still have the same problems and we're, again, going to blame the coach? That just doesn't sit well with me.

We have to look at ways to repair our problems. I don't think dumping the coach is the answer. We have to wheel and deal with the assets we have. And right now, Reef is the only real asset we have. It's unreasonable for anyone who is a fan of this team, to refuse to acknowledge that Reef is not part of the problem too.

We've all talked at lenght about his lack of desire. We've all talked about how he could be great if he only wanted it more. That's what seperates Webber from Reef. WHen webber got traded to a losing team (sacramento) he came out the next season like gang busters. He changed his career in one season. He went from being a good PF in the league to being a great one, one of the best.

If we had this team now, but we had a Reef that played like he did when he dropped 50 on Detroit last year, EVERY NIGHT. We woudln't be having this discussion. We might not be winning a lot more games. But we sure as [censored] wouldn't be getting embarassed by guys like Etan Thomas every other night.

[Playmaker0017]

Chillz,

The problem is that we don't even begin to PUT Reef in a position to score 50.

Last night, Reef touched the ball a grand total of 4 times in the first quarter. That's awful. Not four shots, but four touches. We put the ball in his hands four, maybe five times.

You can't expect someone to dominate when they don't touch the ball. You take them out of the game.

In order for Reef to be what he can be, we need a coach that will get in his face and force him to step up. That is the kind of guy he is. We also need to give him the dang ball.

Reef is frustrated. Look at his comments. He is just too "quiet" to stir the pot.

Play.

[CHORO44]

Well I have to agree with Playmaker. I've seen JT dominate a game and I've seen Reef dominate games. These players have the potential to do great things but the offense is not suited to put them in successful situations. I'd give Reef and JT the green light to just score at will and let the other players adapt around them. I know our talent level is lacking, how can you argue when you have a 7 million dollar backup power forward sitting out, but we still should be more competive. Stotts to me is a poor offensive coach and I don't think he's stamped an identity on this team. Trading for bloated contracts of Jamison and come on Danny Fortson is ridiculous. The only trades I'd consider are these:

Reef and Theo for Big Z, Ricky Davis and a first round this year and JT and Dickau to Chicago for Crawford and their first round this year.

Make Stotts an assistant to Doc and let's move on.

[chillzatl]

He's not too quiet to stir the pot, he's too timid. The guy has never stirred the pot.

ANd it's more than just scoring man. I mean c'mon. how many times does the guy have to get out played by SCRUBS before his lack of heart shows through? He just doesn't want it. You can take that a multitude of ways.

He doesn't demand the ball on offense, the way a star should.

He doesn't hustle on defense and lets himself get outworked by porkchops.

Do you honestly think that in his entire career he's never had a coach get in his face and demand that he be the star that he could be?

If so, why has he never become that star? All he has to do is demand the ball. Why has he never done it? Because he wasn't told? If he has to be told to do that, he's not going to do it on his own.

[emeans]

I am giving this team 20 games to get their stuff together. New ownership should be approved by then. If they are still pulling the disappearing act in the 2nd half after 20 more games. I say Blow this team from the seams and start all over. I mean have a fire sale (ala Florida Marlins).....Trade Reef, JT, Theo and whoever else can be traded for either young potential talent and draft picks. Make sure these new players have some size and athletic ability to bang and play mean and tough.

The Hawks play too soft. The offense look anemic at times (especially 2nd half) and the coaching just flat out sucks.

We need to start all over again and do this thing right this time.

[Playmaker0017]

Chillz,

He has done everything the coaches have asked of him.

Under Brian Hill, he was developing. He had heart and hustle.

Under Lionel Hollins and Sid Lowe, they asked Reef to defer to Bibby and Dickerson. He led the team in shots, but it wasn't the same Reef. He became lax and slow. He was asked to not play his type of basketball.

Under Lon Kruegar, they didn't know how to use him. So, he played the same ball he played for the past three years.

Then comes along the offensive brilliance of Terry Stotts. This guy couldn't coach a dog to sit.

If you look at his career, outside of BRIAN HILL, all the coaches he has had are FIRST YEAR coaches. They put him where he doesn't need to be. They see game film and go "oh, I guess he should be on the three-point line"... only because the previous coach did it.

He's moved from being an agressive kid shooting 17-20 times a game to a man shooting 12.

Yeah, he's timid. He doesn't like to stir the pot. He is the ULTIMATE team player... although, he is human and it is starting to show that he doesn't like what is happening. We need someone to motivate him and get him the DANG BALL!

Play.

[chillzatl]

So reef is the greatest player on the NBA, he's just been misused his entire career? god man listen to what you're saying...

according to you the guy has never had a coach that knew how to use him. That's why he's never been a superstar.

Why do you refuse to recognize who this guy is? He's a passive basketball player. He's not a player who is going to demand the ball.

Don't write it off with [censored] "he's the ultimate team player".

He's the ultimate 2nd fiddle. That's exactly what he is. He's not a 1st option. i don't care if you feed himt he ball 40 times a game, he's not going to deliver like a 1st option because he DOES NOT HAVE A 1ST OPTION MENTALITY.

[Playmaker0017]

Chillz,

I'd agree with you, except during his rookie campaign, he was almost rookie of the year. Edged out chiefly because Iverson had two 50 point games, back to back.

He's also a guy, by the third year in the league was at the top of the league in scoring.

Then his game dimishes the following year? His aggression leaves, the following year? What for? Could it have been the addition of Lionel Hollins as the Head Coach of the Grizzlies? Mix that with Big Country, who Reef thought was going to develop with him, turned into a side order of beef?

You can say what you want, but you obviously have never watched him in his younger days.

I'm not saying his the best player in the league. I'm saying he is a heck of a lot better than what we are giving him. I'm saying he is a top five scorer. I'm saying that if you use him on one end, he will produce more on the other.

I'm basically saying, this team won't win with Dion Glover as the top gun in our offense.

Trade Shareef to Utah and watch him become the next Malone-ish type player.

Play.

[CHORO44]

Got to agree with Play again. Check out an old Timberwolves versus Grizzlies game with Reef vs. Garnett. Shoot Reef tried to dunk on Garnett whenever possible and both players were mouthing off on one another. I'm not sure if it's age or coaching or religion but Reef has that fire in there somewhere and it can come back. I don't know how to research old boxscores but look for a game between the two where both were leading scorers. It was on game in particular that made me wish we could trade for him even though I loved him at Cal.

[chillzatl]

That fire isn't there and I don't think it's going to be there. I don't know if he's lost it or just doesn't care. either way, I don't think it's going to return playing here.

Maybe sending him to Utah would do that. I wouldn't be hurt at all if he went somewehre else and returned to being a top 5 player. But I don't think it's going to happen here. He's going to continue to play content (ie, getting his 20/7 and going on to the next game). He needs something to light his fire and I don't see anything happening here to do it.

I refuse to believe that a coach is going to light that fire in him again. It's absurd to think that a coach is going to do that when no coach has done it for what, 6 years now?

besides that, reef IS NOT a top 5 scorer in the league. [censored], at his best he was a 23ppg player, AT HIS BEST. That's nowhere near top of the league. THat was also the lockout season. Who knows if his average would have dropped to its normal 20ppg level over an 82 game season.

[chillzatl]

We keep him around, while he underachieves and we keep blaming it on coaching? year after year. I mean he is a MAN. Should it really take a coach getting in his face to make him play to his potential? [censored] NO.

You people would dog any other player on any other team that had Reefs potential but didn't give the effort to reach it. yet you defend him and blame coaching...

[Plainview1981]

Last night, Reef touched the ball a grand total of 4 times in the first quarter. That's awful. Not four shots, but four touches. We put the ball in his hands four, maybe five times. "

He gets stripped of the ball.

Diesel....No Jamison PERIOD. Jamison was just like the

rest of the Warriors...He cherry picked his defense for

scoring and rebounding...Danny Fortson done the same

thing and that's the real reason nobody wants Danny

Fortson or Jamison...The Warriors must feel d@mn

lucky they got rid of Jamison. I have no idea why you

like these passionless loser players like Reef and Jamison..

But check the win-loss record...They haven't won their

entire careers. Also you have to factor in that GS shot

so bad that there was alot of rebounds to get.

Trying to say solve the mystery of PP and Walker? First

of all, PP is worth more than Reef/Jamison together. Second, PP is a clutch player that demands the ball in

crunch time....Guys like Jamison and Reef hide in these

cases.

I say enough with these cream puff players. I want a

team built on length, shooting, and athletic ability..These

players Reef and Jamison don't provide that. All they

are is undersized scorers on bad teams.

Chillz:I meant the other Howard....True he hasn't done

much, but atleast he's young with atleast alittle bit of

upside.

[Playmaker0017]

Chillz,

You never know where his scoring would have gone, but it was going up every year from his rookie campaign. There is no reason to believe that under a different system and coach it wouldn't have continued.

Lionel Hollins made Reef a perimeter player. He made Reef sit outside. That, and the fact that they moved to the gaurd's taking the majority of the shots, took Reef out of the game.

Reef is FAR more talented now then he was as a 23 PPG scorer. He has a jumper that he hits on a semi-consistant basis and hits 80% of his FT. He is MUCH better.

I believe a coach CAN light that fire, because it was a coach that blew it out.

Play.

[Playmaker0017]

Chillz,

I do BLAME Reef, partly. But, I also know him as a person. He is not one to complain and play against the wishes of a coach.

But, it is also the coaches responsibility to keep players motivated and to distribute the ball through offensive sets. Stotts RARELY calls Reef's number.

That is an issue.

You can't blame a guy for not shooting the ball when it isn't his turn to shoot. He is playing IN Terry Stott's system. Watch him. He IS doing what he is supposed to be doing.

I think that is what is driving him nuts.

Wilkens said it best when he said "someone needs to get Shareef involved and get him more shots"... but our coaching staff are too busy calling Stephen Jackson for three.

Play.

[thecampster]

We have over 17.7 million a season locked up in Alan Henderson and Theo Ratliff. That's too much for a center averaging 7 points and a perennial injury fiend.

SAR is not the problem, JT is not the problem. I've been saying all along, Bad salaries for small big men is.

Here's my solution. We must move either and or Ratliff and Henderson. Utah comes to mind as a player that needs a center and or more salary. And or find a team that needs good citizens and wants to move distraction citizens. Portland (Rasheed), Chicago, (Rose/Marshall), Washington (Brown) come to mind.

I would move Theo and Henderson (when healthy) to Portland for Rasheed Wallace. Before you say they won't do it, remember what a pain Sheed has been for them and the emergence of Randolph. Doing this means no more double/triples for SAR.

Atlanta trades: C Theo Ratliff (7.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 1.1 apg in 31.4 minutes)

C Alan Henderson (7.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 1.1 apg in 31.4 minutes)

Atlanta receives: SF Rasheed Wallace (18.6 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 3.2 apg in 40.3 minutes)

Change in team outlook: +11.1 ppg, +0.3 rpg, and +2.1 apg.

Portland trades: SF Rasheed Wallace (18.6 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 3.2 apg in 40.3 minutes)

Portland receives: C Theo Ratliff (7.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 1.1 apg in 11 games)

C Alan Henderson (7.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 1.1 apg in 11 games)

Change in team outlook: -11.1 ppg, -0.3 rpg, and -2.1 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Atlanta and Portland being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Atlanta and Portland had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Then send Nazr Mohammed and Dan Dickau and a conditional 1st to Washington for Kwame Brown and Brendan Haywood.

Atlanta trades: PG Dan Dickau (0.0 ppg, 0.5 rpg, 1.0 apg in 2.5 minutes)

C Nazr Mohammed (6.0 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 0.5 apg in 18.0 minutes)

Atlanta receives: C Brendan Haywood (3.0 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 0.1 apg in 13.7 minutes)

PF Kwame Brown (6.7 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.7 apg in 27.5 minutes)

Change in team outlook: +3.7 ppg, +5.5 rpg, and +0.3 apg.

Washington trades: C Brendan Haywood (3.0 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 0.1 apg in 13.7 minutes)

PF Kwame Brown (6.7 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 1.7 apg in 27.5 minutes)

Washington receives: PG Dan Dickau (0.0 ppg, 0.5 rpg, 1.0 apg in 2 games)

C Nazr Mohammed (6.0 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 0.5 apg in 11 games)

Change in team outlook: -3.7 ppg, -5.5 rpg, and -0.3 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Atlanta and Washington being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Atlanta and Washington had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Change in Team

Starters

JT

Dion

SAR

Rasheed

Brown

Second unit

JV

SJax

Diaw

Nailon

Haywood

Hansen, Crawford on the bench. Brandon, Ekezie on IR.

Yes, I believe both deals are probably and that both groups are better offensive and defensive units. Now do we have the nads to do it? That's the question.