Do u want the Hawks in the playoffs?

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

TANK!!!

[tbhawksfan]

What is all the winning culture talk anyway? What does it mean? Tell you what, some franchises know what it means, the others are pretenders. I just want the Hawks to win. Win and the culture will come. If or when we get winning culture you'll know it because we'll be winning.

[ViperXX79]

I'm kind of confused by the "winning culture" too. How many straight years have we made the playoffs? Is that not already a "winning culture" that hasn't exactly landed us a superstar in free agency yet... Are we just waiting on several more lackluster playoff appearances to cement the "winning culture" or are we assuming that the team making the playoffs now is somehow different than the last several years?

[Wretch]

I question how much difference the spot in the draft will make. We are out of the running for the franchise guys and most of the time there isn't much difference between #12 (tanking) and #15 (not tanking).

The difference from 10 years ago is that we had a shot at Dwight Howard if we tanked. Now we are looking at:

12Timberwolves Willie Cauley-Stein C Kentucky, Sophomore

13Magic Doug McDermott PF Creighton, Senior

14Grizzlies James Young SG/SF Kentucky, Freshman

15Bulls Jerami Grant SF Syracuse, Sophomore

16Hawks Clint Capela PF/C Chalon, International

17Suns Rodney Hood SF Duke, Sophomore

From DraftExpress.comhttp://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz2uBYk1PAK

http://www.draftexpress.com

If you wanted a shot at Wiggins, etc. the time to tank was the beginning of the season. If we had a shot at Howard or one of the top guys this year I would be all "tank, tank, tank" but the idea was to build a winning culture here and we can do that just as effectively now that we are dealing with injuries as we could when we were going to be a few wins better.

I just don't see the big upside this year like 10 years ago and I see more guys who are playing now who are part of the future. Teague and Scott balling out is very different from Sura killing it because I expect those guys to be around for a while.

I agree with the latter part of what you're saying here. We should have started rebuilding sooner (IMO, as soon as we unloaded JJ). However, I don't think shooting for the bottom of the playoffs is in our better interest for two reasons.

For one, a "winning culture" is fools gold. Yeah, it's nice to know that the organization is committed to winning,but the primary reason the marquee players sign is the opportunity to be a part of something special. There is nothing particularly special about maintaining the status quo. Danny Ferry is doing his job nothing more. That is not a compelling enough reason to lure top tier talent that's going to change things. I'm just not pinning any hope on the "culture change" simply because we say we're a better/smarter team.

Secondly, I disagree with shooting for the bottom of the playoffs right now because ANY chance at winning the lottery (or maybe falling to the upper lottery) is better than no chance of advancing out of the 1st round.

[AHF]

I guess that just loops me back to my original criticism of this season being a failed design. We had no chance of getting out of the second round this year to start the season and a bumper crop of franchise talents in the draft according to pre-season projections and yet we went for the playoffs with a cap of first-round or second-round exit because we wanted to be winners.

What does it say if we now decide that a first round exit isn't worth it so we are willing to tank for a much lower reward of a few spots better in the double digit portion of the draft?

Sounds like a condemnation of the original plan to me.

Anyone who thinks this team was getting by the Heat or Pacers to start the season is out of their minds, IMO, so if it worth it to get to a second round exit then I don't see how it isn't worth it to still fight for a first round exit. If these early exits aren't worth pursuing, then why did we start the season with a goal of playoff mediocrity at the expense of chasing the top of the draft?

Hard for me to swallow. Tanking now is getting the worst of both scenarios - the losing culture without the draft upside.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

I think what is meant by winning culture isn't necessarily racking up wins year after year, but more of getting a roster that doesn't quit. In years past, if the Hawks got down by double digits in the second half, they'd have likely packed in it and gave up. This culture that Ferry and Bud is bring to the Hawks is one of resilience and heart. A bunch of guys with a zero quit attitude. Guys like Horford, Sap, DMC, KK, and Mack all fit this persona. So with that said, you can still have a winning culture and tank a season away.

Edited February 24, 2014 by PSSSHHHRRR87

[turnermx]

If you have watched the games you would know this team doesnt quit. That is what is meant by a winning culture. Just looking at the standings and seeing an L or W doesnt tell the whole story. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GrimeyKidd]

Under atlantas old development coaches none of these playerswould hhave been the same players. Watch and hope we win, no tanking.

[bird_dirt]

I understand how tankers have a long term vision at heart, but I just don't ever want to see players or teams quit purposely. It would be one thing if ferry traded off everyone and put an all under 23 year old team out knowing they'd lose a lot but still having the players playing hard and gaining experience. When I play on teams, I don't ever want to see teammates quit, no matter how far down we get. That's one of the biggest sins to me. Tank time is too late. Just play hard and hope the Gm and scouts find good players other teams miss, and keep open availability for the right opportunity to trade or sign great players. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[buckeye242424]

I understand how tankers have a long term vision at heart, but I just don't ever want to see players or teams quit purposely. It would be one thing if ferry traded off everyone and put an all under 23 year old team out knowing they'd lose a lot but still having the players playing hard and gaining experience. When I play on teams, I don't ever want to see teammates quit, no matter how far down we get. That's one of the biggest sins to me.Tank time is too late. Just play hard and hope the Gm and scouts find good players other teams miss, and keep open availability for the right opportunity to trade or sign great players. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Great post. A long term vision is an option. But, all of us spend way too much time in our lives watching this team and for them to quit on purpose is wasting their time and our time. I want them in the playoffs. If we make the playoffs...we have a CHANCE. Albeit slim one, but it's better than zero if we tank. I'd rather be in the playoffs with a chance than being in the "lottery".... you ever win a lottery? It's called that for a reason.

[Wretch]

Great post. A long term vision is an option. But, all of us spend way too much time in our lives watching this team and for them to quit on purpose is wasting their time and our time. I want them in the playoffs. If we make the playoffs...we have a CHANCE. Albeit slim one, but it's better than zero if we tank. I'd rather be in the playoffs with a chance than being in the "lottery".... you ever win a lottery? It's called that for a reason.

One of the problems equating the NBA lottery to the actual lottery is the odds. You actually do have a chance of moving up in the draft and it happens all the time. If you subscribe to the "conspiracy" then you know there are even greater odds of things coming out in your favor. lol

What you're really missing though is the quality of talent found in the upper part of the draft. This is the key and it's going right over your head. You equate draft position with "lottery" and lottery with "failure" and "terrible odds." However, in doing so you are completely missing the fact that this is where franchise quality talent comes from.

And by your own logic we are crippling ourselves. Because...if it's such a terrible thing building through the upper part of the draft, then it has to be total suicide trying to do it otherwise. Take a four year draft sampling outside of the lottery (picks 15-60). Over four years (2005, 2006, 2007, & 2008) that's 184 picks. In that time, you have maybe 4-5 All-Star quality players (including our Paul Millsap) and maybe TWO game changers: Rajon Rondo and Roy Hibbert. Talk about terrible odds..... But I'd take that over our chances of advancing past Miami/Indiana.

Bottom line is:

If you want to draft a franchise defining talent, then you need to be in the upper part of the draft. Period. If we are not doing that...then all we have left is free agency (where our odds are even shittier) and trades. But if we're not dealing Horford and/or Millsap (which turns us into a lottery team), then what hope do we have of securing a franchise changer?

This is why I feel that competitive building is foolish. Not impossible, but a severe waste of time and a foolish investment in terrible odds.

I understand how tankers have a long term vision at heart, but I just don't ever want to see players or teams quit purposely. It would be one thing if ferry traded off everyone and put an all under 23 year old team out knowing they'd lose a lot but still having the players playing hard and gaining experience. When I play on teams, I don't ever want to see teammates quit, no matter how far down we get. That's one of the biggest sins to me.

Tank time is too late. Just play hard and hope the Gm and scouts find good players other teams miss, and keep open availability for the right opportunity to trade or sign great players. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

No one wants to see the team lose. As a fan of over 30 years, it kills me to hope to miss the playoffs. I can't look at the competitiveness in Korver, Teague, Sap, and Horf and in good conscious hope that they fail. So, I get it. The problem is, I want to see this team playing for something more than the 1st or 2nd round. I watch a lot of sports, but there is only one team that I follow and have followed my whole life. I've never seen that team compete for anything special and it's killing me.

I think rebuilding is the best path for us to get there...and that unfortunately means missing the playoffs.

I guess that just loops me back to my original criticism of this season being a failed design. We had no chance of getting out of the second round this year to start the season and a bumper crop of franchise talents in the draft according to pre-season projections and yet we went for the playoffs with a cap of first-round or second-round exit because we wanted to be winners.

What does it say if we now decide that a first round exit isn't worth it so we are willing to tank for a much lower reward of a few spots better in the double digit portion of the draft?

Sounds like a condemnation of the original plan to me.

Anyone who thinks this team was getting by the Heat or Pacers to start the season is out of their minds, IMO, so if it worth it to get to a second round exit then I don't see how it isn't worth it to still fight for a first round exit. If these early exits aren't worth pursuing, then why did we start the season with a goal of playoff mediocrity at the expense of chasing the top of the draft?

Hard for me to swallow. Tanking now is getting the worst of both scenarios - the losing culture without the draft upside.

You speak the truth, but that's a failure on Danny Ferry's part and not an indictment of us as fans. If anything, it'll be a condemnatin of his original vision (which I believe is more of an extension of what the ASG wants). As a fan, I'd rather have a chance at the lottery and I'd rather us get on with rebuilding and abandon this...silliness. As I said above, the odds don't favor us taking this route.

I'm also not going to discount the difference between 1 or 2 spots. One spot is the difference between Roy Hibbert and JaVale McGee or Rajon Rondo and Marcus Willams...

Edited February 24, 2014 by Wretch

[Peoriabird]

I appreciate where AHF and Wretch are coming from. Their logic is sound except for one factor. I think that the upper half of this draft is vastly overrated! Have you guy seen these guys play? Andrew Wiggins is definitely not Lebron nor is Embiid even Dwight Howard. Heck even Howard isn't good enough to be considered a franchise number 1 option.

Having said that I am in favor of being in the lottery after the Horford injury to get the best draft pick possible. Now this notion of getting rid of all of our good players just to have the worst record in the league is stupid. No one in the draft will carry a team with out help. And Horford and Teague are young enough to be a part of a very competitive team with additional talent

[buckeye242424]

I guess I'm old fashioned, and just want the team I invest my time into to win. Let's face it, no matter what we do, tank or make the playoffs, we've never been a championship team. So my basic logic is...to only change that is to take step one, and make the playoffs.

[TheFuzz]

Eh. With these injuries, I guess not. The injuries are getting ridiculous. A shot at Embiid would be nice (if he declares. Parker might not declare either). Wiggins has talent.

Having said that, I don't think it's the end of the world either way. We'll have a little bit of cap plus a decent pick plus a couple of assets to move around and get the guy we want. If we can stay healthy next year and add a good player via FA and a good one via the draft and maybe another via trade, then we're back on our way to the ECF and beyond, especially with our coaching.

[Sothron]

Who besides Brand is an expiring for us this year? Scott?

[tbhawksfan]

Eh. With these injuries, I guess not. The injuries are getting ridiculous. A shot at Embiid would be nice (if he declares. Parker might not declare either). Wiggins has talent.

Having said that, I don't think it's the end of the world either way. We'll have a little bit of cap plus a decent pick plus a couple of assets to move around and get the guy we want. If we can stay healthy next year and add a good player via FA and a good one via the draft and maybe another via trade, then we're back on our way to the ECF and beyond, especially with our coaching.

Yeah, great. Why didn't he make moves like that last summer? Love Sap, but Ferry's moves last summer were far short of giving us a chance.

We were one of the teams that had the most cap last summer. What is the result; 8th seed a falling quickly. Not quickly enough to get into the quality picks, just bad enough to get more mediocre picks.

[Peoriabird]

Yeah, great. Why didn't he make moves like that last summer? Love Sap, but Ferry's moves last summer were far short of giving us a chance.

We were one of the teams that had the most cap last summer. What is the result; 8th seed a falling quickly. Not quickly enough to get into the quality picks, just bad enough to get more mediocre picks.

You guys that ignore the reality of what has happened to this season by blaming Ferry's bad decision for the state of the team are ridiculous.

News flash!

We were the #3 seed before the injuries started and on the rise!

AND YES, WE BEAT TOP TEAMS WHILE HEALTHY! So all of you Ferry haters need to take a chill pill and give this man a chance. With additional talent from the draft, our troops coming home from Europe, and key players returning to full health, we should compete for the Eastern conference title next year.

[Sothron]

You guys that ignore the reality of what has happened to this season by blaming Ferry's bad decision for the state of the team are ridiculous.

News flash!

We were the #3 seed before the injuries started and on the rise!

AND YES, WE BEAT TOP TEAMS WHILE HEALTHY! So all of you Ferry haters need to take a chill pill and give this man a chance. With additional talent from the draft, our troops coming home from Europe, and key players returning to full health, we should compete for the Eastern conference title next year.

I got a laugh out of the troops coming home from Europe line. Are they singing "over there" on the way back? lol

[TheFuzz]

Yeah, great. Why didn't he make moves like that last summer? Love Sap, but Ferry's moves last summer were far short of giving us a chance.

We were one of the teams that had the most cap last summer. What is the result; 8th seed a falling quickly. Not quickly enough to get into the quality picks, just bad enough to get more mediocre picks.

Far short? Honestly, Millsap might have been the third best FA on the market, and we got him. There will be some good players on the market we could pursue (particularly Stephenson), and I feel that we may trade Teague/Lou on draft night to free up some more space.

To answer Sothron, I read we have potentially $10M in cap (Brand, Scott, Ayón and Antić aren't guaranteed, plus the minimum guys we have). Here's a link: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/atlanta.htm

[buckeye242424]

Dallas is in the same spot we are.....8th

• Regarding the notion that the Mavs (34-23), currently in the eighth playoff spot in the West, are caught in a no-man's land of mediocrity, Cuban was dismissive. Wouldn't he rather be really good or really bad (i.e. tanking)? "Oh, absolutely not," Cuban said. "That's dumb [expletive].