Sefolosha really needs to begin starting again

[Lurker]

Doesn't mean he plays starter's minutes, in a perfect world he plays 25-28 mins a game most games, and one of Hardaway Jr or Bazemore provides a good offensive spark off the bench and can finish if needed.

I tried to evaluate Schröder's game in a 2nd watch, and ended up realizing that the starting lineup is just not working (and honestly never has but the bench covered it up like a glove in the 2nd half of December). Too often they end up in near double digit deficits and the bench has to bring the game back to life, and last night was another case of it. Pulling the entire starting lineup except for Millsap fairly early (5:03, about 2-3 mins early) was how they got back into the game the first time and after the 2nd unit left the game in the 2nd quarter, the offense stagnated again. Schröder finished the half over Teague, and while I did spot one mistake in that span, it wasn't really on him that the deficit went to 4.

[Plainview1981]

21 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Doesn't mean he plays starter's minutes, in a perfect world he plays 25-28 mins a game most games, and one of Hardaway Jr or Bazemore provides a good offensive spark off the bench and can finish if needed.

I tried to evaluate Schröder's game in a 2nd watch, and ended up realizing that the starting lineup is just not working (and honestly never has but the bench covered it up like a glove in the 2nd half of December). Too often they end up in near double digit deficits and the bench has to bring the game back to life, and last night was another case of it. Pulling the entire starting lineup except for Millsap fairly early (5:03, about 2-3 mins early) was how they got back into the game the first time and after the 2nd unit left the game in the 2nd quarter, the offense stagnated again. Schröder finished the half over Teague, and while I did spot one mistake in that span, it wasn't really on him that the deficit went to 4.

Teague and Horford are passive far too often. That's a big issue in my opinion. You combine that with the fact that Korver rarely gets open anymore and Bazemore has no handles. The more you examine this starting the line up, the more flawed it looks.

[Alex]

So long as he never attempts a shot ever again.  Hard to be that bad offensively and still be in the NBA.  

[RedDawg#8]

Agreed, put him in there. Also I noticed way too many careless turnovers on Korvers behalf. every time he comes off a screen not looking to shot he immediately fires a blind pass to the screener and teams have been picking it off. I noticed it 3 separate in the game last night and I didn't get to watch the middle 2 quarters.  Bazemore has also been so careless with possessions. He may need to be sent down to the DLeague next time instead of Tavares to work on some fundamentals. I dont where this notion of him being a solid pro came from. Dude has zero craftiness about him whatsoever. He can run in a straight line or shoot a jumper on offense that's about it.  Thabo could take either one of their place and Id be happy.

I know people aren't as down on Korver because he has been shooting the ball better as of late but watch him closely on both ends. He doesn't run decisively on offense anymore which is party why he isn't open as much, he is careless with the ball, and on defense he causes bad matchups for because he normally cant guard the guy at his position. For example last night he was guarding MCW down the stretch. Dennis was matched up with Middleton which was a huge disadvantage, and the Bucks posted him up every trip. Horford would leave the paint to help, The ball immediately went to his man, Millsap rotates, and Parker cuts in for easy buckets behind him.  It was pathetic to watch, and all because we had to switch Korver onto MCW. That's too easy for other teams. We have serious flaws on this team, and a lot of it starts from having 2 very limited players not only starting but playing major minutes down the stretch. Thabo wont fix that by himself but it cant hurt.

 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

Teague and Horford are passive far too often. That's a big issue in my opinion. You combine that with the fact that Korver rarely gets open anymore and Bazemore has no handles. The more you examine this starting the line up, the more flawed it looks.

We had all these issues last year and won 60 games and should have won more. It's time that we address the main issue which is replacing a very impact yet average player with a below average above average player as his replacement. The fit has been horrible. 

[Plainview1981]

24 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

We had all these issues last year and won 60 games and should have won more. It's time that we address the main issue which is replacing a very impact yet average player with a below average above average player as his replacement. The fit has been horrible. 

Korver was shooting lights out the first half of last year and the Hawks didn't have a target on their backs like they have this year. Other teams are more prepared for the Hawks this year. Teams make adjustments. Like I said, I don't think the team even came into the season with the mindset of winning. They still looked iffy despite the 8-1 start. I think the loss of Carroll hurt, but also getting swept by Cleveland. I don't think they really believe they can win. I don't think the morale has been high since Cleveland put them out.

[pimp]

People need to forget about "60 wins" We overachieved.. We never really had the talent of a 60 win team anyway.
People act if the drop off  in talent from Carroll to Bazemore is the diffrence between  winning 60 ,and this current team.   It's not . With the exception of Dec and Jan, we
played like an average team...even with Carroll
It's not like a slightly better SF  will fix all our problems.

We were a 60 win team because of Jan and Dec.  We were mediocre  the other 5 months .. especially from Feb until the end of the season. ( With Carroll!)

Feb 7-4
Mar 9-7
Apr 4-3
Playoffs 8- 8
The number 1 seed gave us the easiest path to the ECF.  We struggled to beat a bad Nets team and barley escaped old man Pierce's 3 with a 10th of a second. 
Since the beginning of last season , we have had 9 months of mediocrity vs 2 months of greatness . We clearly played well over heads during that 2 months span, 
People don't seem to get , that those 2 months are not happening again . We lack major talent compared to the real contenders.
Last year our system was like the Wildcat in the NFL  a few years ago.  The first half of the year people couldn't stop it, but as the season went on, people figured it out
and made ajustments.  We need better talent in more places than just Sf.

What we really need is a legit #1 option on offensive and some   good defensive rebounders 
All the legit contending teams have those... We don't

Horford and Sap are very good players, but let's be honest, they would'nt even stiff the All star game if they played in th west.
Sap = Sap of last season... except the last 24 seconds of games he turns into Yinka Dinka Dare
Horford -  defensive rebounding at an embarrassing rate.
Jeff is a highly inconsistent player
Korver .. teams got better at running him off the 3 point line the 2nd half of last season . He is no longer a starting caliber player  . Remember he was a bench player
for about 3 or 4 years with the Jazz and Bulls before the Bulls gave him to us for nothing.
Baze is a 15 min a night bench player ... does'nt move without the ball anywhere near as well as Carroll

People's expectation for this group is too high.
We play the Warriors tomorrow... You could argue that they are more talented at every position than the Hawks. That shows you just  how far we still are away from being where they are.

Edited February 22, 2016 by pimp

[Alex]

Nobody on this team would start on Golden State.

[RedDawg#8]

We don't have the talent of a 60 win team I agree, but we do HAVE talent that we just aren't utilizing the right way. We continue to roll our guys out there night after night expecting a lightbulb to come on instead of objectively self scouting and seeing what and WHO is and isn't working.

Our bench has been on a roll lately, They have outplayed the starters as a unit. Certain players have earned not just an increase in minutes, but the right to close out these games that they single handedly kept us in. I would personally take Dennis, Thabo, and Scott over Teague Baze and Korver most nights. 

Here's an unorthodox lineup for you:

Dennis, Thabo, Scott, Sap, and Horford

 

Offensively:

Dennis gets 3 Pick and Roll options to use all over the court. And each of them can space the floor from 3 or drive. Thabo doesn't have to stand at the 3 point line and can slash of picks and drives to the hoop. Scott can pull a Jabari Parker and run the baseline for put backs or when Sap passes out of a post up. We have extra size for offensive rebounds, lobs, etc.

Defensively:

REBOUNDING. Whenever our bigs come out of the paint to help againtst penetration or a mismatch a wing has to replace him down low and it hurts us on the glass. This lineup gives us more height and length when that happens, instead of Baze and Korver its Thabo and Scott/Sap. LENGTH what we lose in foot speed we gain in length to contest  shots. Though Id argue Mike Scott might be just as fast if not faster than Kyle Korver in a foot race.

 

idk, just something to think about.

 

[Guard]

2 hours ago, pimp said:

People need to forget about "60 wins" We overachieved.. We never really had the talent of a 60 win team anyway.
People act if the drop off  in talent from Carroll to Bazemore is the diffrence between  winning 60 ,and this current team.   It's not . With the exception of Dec and Jan, we
played like an average team...even with Carroll
It's not like a slightly better SF  will fix all our problems.

We were a 60 win team because of Jan and Dec.  We were mediocre  the other 5 months .. especially from Feb until the end of the season. ( With Carroll!)

Feb 7-4
Mar 9-7
Apr 4-3
Playoffs 8- 8
The number 1 seed gave us the easiest path to the ECF.  We struggled to beat a bad Nets team and barley escaped old man Pierce's 3 with a 10th of a second. 
Since the beginning of last season , we have had 9 months of mediocrity vs 2 months of greatness . We clearly played well over heads during that 2 months span, 
People don't seem to get , that those 2 months are not happening again . We lack major talent compared to the real contenders.
Last year our system was like the Wildcat in the NFL  a few years ago.  The first half of the year people couldn't stop it, but as the season went on, people figured it out
and made ajustments.  We need better talent in more places than just Sf.

What we really need is a legit #1 option on offensive and some   good defensive rebounders 
All the legit contending teams have those... We don't

Horford and Sap are very good players, but let's be honest, they would'nt even stiff the All star game if they played in th west.
Sap = Sap of last season... except the last 24 seconds of games he turns into Yinka Dinka Dare
Horford -  defensive rebounding at an embarrassing rate.
Jeff is a highly inconsistent player
Korver .. teams got better at running him off the 3 point line the 2nd half of last season . He is no longer a starting caliber player  . Remember he was a bench player
for about 3 or 4 years with the Jazz and Bulls before the Bulls gave him to us for nothing.
Baze is a 15 min a night bench player ... does'nt move without the ball anywhere near as well as Carroll

People's expectation for this group is too high.
We play the Warriors tomorrow... You could argue that they are more talented at every position than the Hawks. That shows you just  how far we still are away from being where they are.

[LastDon]

Totally agree!

44 minutes ago, Guard said:

You right Korver is the root of the problem! Korver shouldn't be starting and its jus sad how bud is going to ride this current starting lineup to hell!smh

[macdaddy]

Thabo should have been starting all year but i could only figure that Bud thought Baze could develop better.   Thabo shows up for every game.   It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that if you can defend the wing you're toast.  

[AHF]

I am assuming Bud has been trying to control Thabo's minutes in light of his history of injuries and offseason recovery.  Our wing depth is the problem more than Thabo, Bazemore or Korver.  We have 3 SGs who are ideally bench players with 2 of them coming off surgery and they have no support from the rest of the roster and therefore have covered most minutes at SG and SF.  The Singles (including Patterson, Holiday and THJr) have been very little help.

[RedDawg#8]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I am assuming Bud has been trying to control Thabo's minutes in light of his history of injuries and offseason recovery.  Our wing depth is the problem more than Thabo, Bazemore or Korver.  We have 3 SGs who are ideally bench players with 2 of them coming off surgery and they have no support from the rest of the roster and therefore have covered most minutes at SG and SF.  The Singles (including Patterson, Holiday and THJr) have been very little help.

And see I would typically agree with this theory except Korver is more vital to our long term success and not only is he older than Thabo but he is coming off of 2 surgeries yet coach has been riding him just as hard as he did last season. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by RedDawg#8

[AHF]

53 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

And see I would typically agree with this theory except Korver is more vital to our long term success and not only is he older than Thabo but he is coming off of 2 surgeries yet coach has been riding him just as hard as he did last season. 

He is playing less than last year (roughly 2 minutes less per game) but I think the bigger picture is that last year Bazemore was the alternative off the bench.  This year Bud is rolling with Bazemore as the big minutes guy at SF which leaves the SG alternatives as the craptastic alternatives of Patterson, Holiday and Hardaway Jr.  

Compared to last year, while Korver is playing 2 minutes less per game Thabo is actually playing 5 minutes more per game.  Again, our options are limited so a big part of this is necessity but Korver has played more than Thabo every season since 2010-11 so this is not anything revolutionary.

[Guest]

Bazemore's game has really tailed off and he's playing so out of control on both offense and defense.

He's handling the ball too much for my liking and turning it over - it's like he's hit a wall.

He's watching his potential big payday fly out the window and he's pressing.

[AHF]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Bazemore's game has really tailed off and he's playing so out of control on both offense and defense.

He's handling the ball too much for my liking and turning it over - it's like he's hit a wall.

He's watching his potential big payday fly out the window and he's pressing.

And he remains one of our 3 best options on the wing.  

[Lurker]

I rest my case. Bazemore goes out in this one and a miracle run happens.