Schröder.

[Watchman]

On 5/13/2016 at 1:48 PM, Lurker said:

Early observation:

Irving makes EXCELLENT passes out of the double to Love that I would NOT expect him to do. He isn't known as a passer so that was really surprising.

And I just saw Korver blow something right near the basket. Ughhhh, why does he even play more than 15 minutes?

So Korver is berated for missing something near the basket, but Dennis is ok for dribbling into a crowd and not even getting a shot off?  Hypocritical to the nth degree.

[Lurker]

49 minutes ago, Watchman said:

So Korver is berated for missing something near the basket, but Dennis is ok for dribbling into a crowd and not even getting a shot off?  Hypocritical to the nth degree.

You would see Teague take...and miss a step back jump shot in that situation.

[Watchman]

22 hours ago, Lurker said:

You would see Teague take...and miss a step back jump shot in that situation.

I believe Schröder was open for a 10 ft runner or jump shot.  At least a shot would have been taken with the possibility of an offensive rebound if missed, as opposed to a jump ball against a man 8 inches taller.  Really poor decision making, but the same can be said for Teague at times. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by Watchman

[bumpyphish1]

On 5/9/2016 at 9:39 AM, Diesel said:

People give props to Schröder for his play in game 4.  I saw it as Hero ball.   I still think he's more liable to abandon and offensive game plan and do his own thing.  On the last play of the game, we had open shooters on the perimeter.  He runs into Lebron and gets tangled into a jump ball situation.

I still don't believe that he will ever conform to being a PG.  Teague may be too timid to do it all the time.  The answer may be elsewhere.  I don't know.

 

 

On 5/9/2016 at 10:25 AM, Bankingitbig said:

Schröder had 6 assists and only 2 TOs in 25mins vs. Teague at 2 assists and 3 TOs in 22mins.. He clearly played the PG position better than Teague - not even counting the fact that Schröder was our top scorer and basically kept us in the game. I'm sorry, but I have seen too many Hawks be timid in close situations like that and I was glad to not see that from Schröder, even though it didn't work out. As a coach, why wouldn't you want Schröder to drive the ball in that situation with Delly on him? In fact, I am surprised Bud didn't use Schröder + Teague together more often, as there really wasn't anyone on the Cavs that could stop their penetration.

 

I haven't read but the first page, but re: Dennis, here are my very well-formed opinions and thoughts on the above statements,

Re: Diesel's comment, it was not just game 4 when Dennis shined.  He lead ALL SCORERS  in game 1 with 27 points.  He pitched in 5 three's and six assists in that one, too.  He's got swag no one else on this roster has.  "Conform to being a PG."  HUH? 

Poster @Bankingitbig has got it right in his comment.

Anyone who doesn't know it's if and not when Scröder becomes the leag dog at PG is in the dark.  I don't know if Hawks'll find a taker for Teague, but if I were Bud, if Teague sticks here next season, I'd play him less minutes than Dennis.  Then you let Teague walk.  Unless...you find a good trade this summer.  Teague still has value to us at $8M...we can't give him away, but hopefully we find a deal where it's worth it.

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, bumpyphish1 said:

 

 

I haven't read but the first page, but re: Dennis, here are my very well-formed opinions and thoughts on the above statements,

Re: Diesel's comment, it was not just game 4 when Dennis shined.  He lead ALL SCORERS  in game 1 with 27 points.  He pitched in 5 three's and six assists in that one, too.  He's got swag no one else on this roster has.  "Conform to being a PG."  HUH? 

Poster @Bankingitbig has got it right in his comment.

Anyone who doesn't know it's if and not when Scröder becomes the leag dog at PG is in the dark.  I don't know if Hawks'll find a taker for Teague, but if I were Bud, if Teague sticks here next season, I'd play him less minutes than Dennis.  Then you let Teague walk.  Unless...you find a good trade this summer.  Teague still has value to us at $8M...we can't give him away, but hopefully we find a deal where it's worth it.

I am more resolute than ever on this.  IF Dennis can get us Jaylen Brown (#6 Pelicans or #4 76ers) I say do it.   Not that I don't think that Dennis is a good PG.  I don't think Dennis would ever fit our system.  He's not a Bud system guy.   He gets stats but he doesn't make those around him better and that's what the system is supposed to do.   Meanwhile, he has collected value throughout the league and I believe enough value to make one of these teams give up their top ten pick for him.   If we can do it without giving up our first rounder I say do it.  IF it requires our first rounder, I say do it.  

This is the time that we have to make a move that helps us both now and into the future.  That's Jaylen Brown.

 

[bumpyphish1]

Dennis is perfect for the system.  He is a faster/quicker version of Tony Parker.  Give him two more years.  Dennis is gonna be a cornerstone for a long time.  He is gonna be deadly on the pick and roll and his shot will only get better (ala Parker).

Dennis is gonna be a star.  No doubt about.  He is the most valuable asset the Hawks have.

Edited May 16, 2016 by bumpyphish1

[Lurker]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

He gets stats but he doesn't make those around him better and that's what the system is supposed to do.

Yet again, if Schröder doesn't make players better, than your man Jeff Teague must have had an absolutely terrible season as every stat said that the starters were better with Schröder over Teague for most of the season. Efficiency and results by the analytics were all up with Schröder.

And no, don't try to spin things like I know you'll try to do.

[Diesel]

10 hours ago, bumpyphish1 said:

Dennis is perfect for the system.  He is a faster/quicker version of Tony Parker.  Give him two more years.  Dennis is gonna be a cornerstone for a long time.  He is gonna be deadly on the pick and roll and his shot will only get better (ala Parker).

Dennis is gonna be a star.  No doubt about.  He is the most valuable asset the Hawks have.

Dennis' problem with the system is will not ability.  I agree, he has the ability to be better than Tony Parker, But I don't think he will ever have the will.  It's not even about basketball IQ.  It's about him wanting to be "the man" and not realizing that he can be the man running the system.

 

[Diesel]

6 hours ago, Lurker said:

Yet again, if Schröder doesn't make players better, than your man Jeff Teague must have had an absolutely terrible season as every stat said that the starters were better with Schröder over Teague for most of the season. Efficiency and results by the analytics were all up with Schröder.

And no, don't try to spin things like I know you'll try to do.

I feel the Teague hate from you Lurker.

However, riddle me this.  Why do you think Teague was included in the Hawks 4 allstars last year?  Do you think he was a statistical standout?  Better than Wall?  Better than Kyrie?

No.  People saw his ability to run BUD BALL and how it made Budball work.

A lot of people blame our failings this year on the fact that Teague didn't manage Budball the way he managed it last year.

Now Dennis has all the tools and more to do what Teague did last year.  The problem is that he doesn't have the will to be consistent in playing Bud ball.  Oft times, when Dennis plays, the game breaks down to ISO BALL and everybody watches what ISOSCHRO is doing.  Yes, from time to time, he will pass.  However, many times, in the middle of his isoball, he throws an errant pass or he doesn't get the players involved to the point that they know that the ball is coming to them.   He hasn't changed much since he got here and it's not because he lacks ability and it's not that Teague is any better than him.  It's that with all Dennis' ability, he won't conform to a winning system.   I think he can go somewhere else like N.O. Play PNR basketball with Davis and rack up assists and be a scoring machine.  However, being in an offense that focus is about making the pass to the guy with the better shot than yours.. that's not Dennis' thing.  He wants to be in a system where he choses who shoots.  (there's a difference).

[TheNorthCydeRises]

http://www.82games.com/1516/1516ATL.HTM

 

http://www.82games.com/1516/1516ATL2.HTM

 

I'm a Teague supporter for the most part.  But this says ...

Schröder > Teague.

Edited May 16, 2016 by TheNorthCydeRises

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I feel the Teague hate from you Lurker.

However, riddle me this.  Why do you think Teague was included in the Hawks 4 allstars last year?  Do you think he was a statistical standout?  Better than Wall?  Better than Kyrie?

No.  People saw his ability to run BUD BALL and how it made Budball work.

A lot of people blame our failings this year on the fact that Teague didn't manage Budball the way he managed it last year.

Now Dennis has all the tools and more to do what Teague did last year.  The problem is that he doesn't have the will to be consistent in playing Bud ball.  Oft times, when Dennis plays, the game breaks down to ISO BALL and everybody watches what ISOSCHRO is doing.  Yes, from time to time, he will pass.  However, many times, in the middle of his isoball, he throws an errant pass or he doesn't get the players involved to the point that they know that the ball is coming to them.   He hasn't changed much since he got here and it's not because he lacks ability and it's not that Teague is any better than him.  It's that with all Dennis' ability, he won't conform to a winning system.   I think he can go somewhere else like N.O. Play PNR basketball with Davis and rack up assists and be a scoring machine.  However, being in an offense that focus is about making the pass to the guy with the better shot than yours.. that's not Dennis' thing.  He wants to be in a system where he choses who shoots.  (there's a difference).

Teague was an allstar last year and deservedly so.  This year a step back. I expected growth and consistency - didn't  get it. 7 years in and it's  the same on again off again.

If Dennis wasn't  22 and 3 years in, I'd  agree with you. Saying stuff like he won't  conform or doesn't  have the will to run Bud's  offense - bull.

Go look at threads at what people thought of Jeff just 3 years ago - things like no court vision, he doesn't  have it, either you have it or you don't  - I disagreed.

What thing  I've  learned  is that young players need time to develop before I say what they can and can't  be.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And it's funny how us Hawks fans have been conditioned to believe that ISO basketball is horrible.  In the playoffs, the ability to score in isolation is essential.  System basketball is great in the regular season, but will only get you so far in the playoffs.

 

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And it's funny how us Hawks fans have been conditioned to believe that ISO basketball is horrible.  In the playoffs, the ability to score in isolation is essential.  System basketball is great in the regular season, but will only get you so far in the playoffs.

 

 

Agreed but you need a superstar like Westbrook or Durant, you can't get by with a star like Joe Johnson 5 years ago.

[rd79]

CNN: NBA: In search of the next Stephen Curry ...

Quote

Dennis Schröder, Atlanta Hawks, age 22

Watching Schröder handle the ball is like trying keeping pace with a red-uniformed blur. With his broad shoulders, disproportionately long arms, and natural court awareness, the German youngster resembles Kings' point guard Rajon Rondo -- with a reliable jump shot.

And just like the mercurial Rondo, "Dennis the Menace" is making waves. Schröder, a three-year understudy to franchise point-guard Jeff Teague, played key minutes in the Hawks second-round series against Cleveland -- including the entire fourth quarter of the deciding game. It's no wonder he declared his intention to be a starter as of next season -- whether in Atlanta or elsewhere.

Upside: The sky's the limit for Schröder -- a classic drive and dish point guard. With his speed, he can blow by most NBA defenders, while keeping them honest with an effective -- and improving -- jump shot.

Marketability: Huge. Complimenting his little-man's swagger -- he's often confronting players twice his size -- the golden streak in Schröder's hair may as well be a symbol for a marketing jackpot. He's also half Gambian from his mother's side, opening up another continent for endorsement potential.

 

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Teague was an allstar last year and deservedly so.  This year a step back. I expected growth and consistency - didn't  get it. 7 years in and it's  the same on again off again.

If Dennis wasn't  22 and 3 years in, I'd  agree with you. Saying stuff like he won't  conform or doesn't  have the will to run Bud's  offense - bull.

Go look at threads at what people thought of Jeff just 3 years ago - things like no court vision, he doesn't  have it, either you have it or you don't  - I disagreed.

What thing  I've  learned  is that young players need time to develop before I say what they can and can't  be.

IF you're trying to say that Teague and Dennis are different, I agree.  If you're trying to say that Teague is inconsistent, I agree.  However, you hasn't said anything to change my point.  Dennis may be young, but he's been playing with grown men since 16.  He came here with a "chip" on his shoulder.  His brashness is part of the reason many people like him so much.  His brashness is the reason why he's so aggressive.  However, by the same token, his brashness is why HE won't conform to a system that tells him that he's not supposed to be brash all the time. He has good BBIQ for PNR ball.  However, he's not going to change everything that he grew up with and do what is against his nature.  For Teague, Budball made things easier.  He's not as aggressive and he started out as a SG, so choosing who gets to score is not him.  Dennis is a PG, an aggressive PG, who believes that his mission is to choose who gets the score.  That's why he won't change.  It's like trying to get Marvin to be more aggressive.  You may see flirts of it, but in all honesty, it's not his nature so he wasn't quick to do it.   The same is true of Dennis.

You're trying to tie Dennis' possibility with what Teague was able to do with time.   I say Look again.  What exactly did Teague do?  Did Teague trade Joe Johnson and Smoove away?  It wasn't until those Ball dominant players were out of our system that Teague became the PG of this team.   When you go back and watch Teague at Wake Forest, he was always a guy able to slash and score.  However, he played out of position at the PG.   When Budball came, Budball told Teague that you don't always have to have the ball in your hands, you can play off the ball and still get assists.   That wasn't a big jump for Teague.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And it's funny how us Hawks fans have been conditioned to believe that ISO basketball is horrible.  In the playoffs, the ability to score in isolation is essential.  System basketball is great in the regular season, but will only get you so far in the playoffs.

 

 

Isobasketball is horrible now.  Isobasketball is the Jordan Years... where Mark Jackson would call for somebody to clear out the lane and he would back his man down from Halfcourt.  That doesn't work.  Isoball is the Miami Heat all going dribble dribble dribble shoot... and hope that one man can get hot enough to carry the whole team.   Isoball is the past.  The team game is better. When you can get the whole team scoring and not be reliant on one guy to always save the day, you're playing better basketball.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

IF you're trying to say that Teague and Dennis are different, I agree.  If you're trying to say that Teague is inconsistent, I agree.  However, you hasn't said anything to change my point.  Dennis may be young, but he's been playing with grown men since 16.  He came here with a "chip" on his shoulder.  His brashness is part of the reason many people like him so much.  His brashness is the reason why he's so aggressive.  However, by the same token, his brashness is why HE won't conform to a system that tells him that he's not supposed to be brash all the time. He has good BBIQ for PNR ball.  However, he's not going to change everything that he grew up with and do what is against his nature.  For Teague, Budball made things easier.  He's not as aggressive and he started out as a SG, so choosing who gets to score is not him.  Dennis is a PG, an aggressive PG, who believes that his mission is to choose who gets the score.  That's why he won't change.  It's like trying to get Marvin to be more aggressive.  You may see flirts of it, but in all honesty, it's not his nature so he wasn't quick to do it.   The same is true of Dennis.

You're trying to tie Dennis' possibility with what Teague was able to do with time.   I say Look again.  What exactly did Teague do?  Did Teague trade Joe Johnson and Smoove away?  It wasn't until those Ball dominant players were out of our system that Teague became the PG of this team.   When you go back and watch Teague at Wake Forest, he was always a guy able to slash and score.  However, he played out of position at the PG.   When Budball came, Budball told Teague that you don't always have to have the ball in your hands, you can play off the ball and still get assists.   That wasn't a big jump for Teague.

The way I see it Schröder plays the way he plays because Bud allows him to.  Bud knows he's not close to a finished product, so he lets him play with what comes naturally, play to his strengths while working out the kinks in his ability to run the team, be a better decision maker. etc.

Like I said previously and it can't be disputed -  It says MORE about Teague's lack of 'whatever'  that Bud benches him in a close out game for Dennis.

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

Isobasketball is horrible now.  Isobasketball is the Jordan Years... where Mark Jackson would call for somebody to clear out the lane and he would back his man down from Halfcourt.  That doesn't work.  Isoball is the Miami Heat all going dribble dribble dribble shoot... and hope that one man can get hot enough to carry the whole team.   Isoball is the past.  The team game is better. When you can get the whole team scoring and not be reliant on one guy to always save the day, you're playing better basketball.

It seems to take a balance between iso/system ball to win.  Every champion has the ability to do either when necessary.

We're completely one-sided in that regard and that is a large part of why we're always under that glass ceiling.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

Isobasketball is horrible now.  Isobasketball is the Jordan Years... where Mark Jackson would call for somebody to clear out the lane and he would back his man down from Halfcourt.  That doesn't work.  Isoball is the Miami Heat all going dribble dribble dribble shoot... and hope that one man can get hot enough to carry the whole team.   Isoball is the past.  The team game is better. When you can get the whole team scoring and not be reliant on one guy to always save the day, you're playing better basketball.

Sounds good in theory but when a team like the Hawks have no one to take and make a big shot when it matters, that's  a problem. 

As much as SAS and GSW play team ball, with the  game on the line we know who's  getting the ball and that person has the ability  to go ISO or make the right play to a teammate to get a bucket. Those teams have OPTIONS - The Hawks don't.

[macdaddy]

I'm tired of a team full of players who are scared to not run the 'system' even when it breaks down.   Like standing there waiting for the play to develop while the clock runs out.      Parker, Manu, and Duncan knew when to run the play and when to just go get a bucket.    To me that's the promise of Dennis.   It has been the best part of Teague too but as others pointed out it's up and down.    Frankly I'd be happy keeping either one but it makes no sense to keep Teague and part with Dennis given their differences in age and salary.  

You know a year or two ago there was a huge argument on here about whether Teague or Lowry was better.   Does anyone think Teague is better now?    I hate saying this because I'm a huge fan of Jeff.