Atlanta overpaid for Dwight at this stage and should have never paid Bazemore

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Sothron said:

I...I can't even....oh Soth be a good guy and don't go for the low hanging fruit....

I wasn't referencing you with that statement. More so you know who. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, thecampster said:

Please justify how 62.3% FG%, 13.8ppg, 12.5 rpg, 1.6 bpg in less than 29mpg is just a decent center. Also, please explain to me why the center shooting 62.3% is shooting 5.5 less shots per game than the point guard shooting 44%. Why is the point guard shooting more than the all-star, offensive power forward. Why when Dennis is driving to the basket is he thinking score first and pass only in an emergency. If I see him throw one more pass at Dwight's ankles after getting stuck driving in balls deep under the basket I'm gonna blow the roof off my house screaming.

Even more so, explain how 4th in the league in FG% and 4th in the league in rebounding is just "decent".  Your opinions are so hate-filled, lacking statistical back and unsubstantiated it's nauseating.

The current Hawks failures fall squarely on the shoulders of Coach Bud. The Hawks have serious defensive issues related to Korver's foot speed, Bazemore's size and a lack of adjustments. This all began with giving up Demarre and continued this season by dropping Edy in lieu of Ryan Kelly. The refusal to allow the rooks to play and to play to their strengths.  Great coaches adjust to what they have. Bud is coaching like a rookie this season and it shows. The team is giving up 4 more points per game over last season and 6.2 more points over the previous season. The team is showing significantly less dedication to defense in their style to play and minutes doled out. This is on Bud and your opinion that Dwight is a problem doesn't show up in the numbers.  When Dwight Howard is grabbing 4.5 ORB per game but only getting 8.8 shots per game (1/2 coming on put backs) it shows no commitment to playing inside out.  Jump shot misses lead to long rebounds and fast breaks for the opposing team. Bud needs to get control of this team and start running the offense through Paul and Dwight.

Excellent post.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

I think as fans, we sometimes lose perspective of what good play really looks like.   Good play has to be seen under the microscope of expectation.   That's the problem with Supes.   He doesn't know Good play because Either he's not watching or he expects every C to play like Horford and stand on the 3 pt line and rebounds mean nothing. 

However, my expectation problem is that I expect us to pass the ball better than we have been doing.  I'm not in it for the isoball anymore.

 

Some of us see Dennis scoring 30points, with 4 assists and a bunch of isolations and say.. Wow.. that dude is playing good.  The problem is that it's a Marbury good and we need a Kidd good.   When we lost Horford and Teague we lost a ton of assists.  Half of the guys on the team live and die on getting the ball in their spots.   We're not getting that now.  So these guys who could get to their spots and wait on the pass that would allow them to make their move is not getting it.  So now they are forced to improvise and play more isolike.   That doesn't work with the personnel we have.  So as fans, immediately, we blame the player.  We blame the player for not scoring like he did last year or two years ago.  When the truth is that the offense has changed and they have to find a new way to get their points.   In short, it's going to take time and unfortunately patience.  This Renaissance in Toronto.  We've watched them.  They had to work their way to get to the play where everybody can get the ball in their spots.   That's why DD is looking so beastly lately.   I remember he struggled trying to shoot the three.  Now, he's the master of the midrange.  He doesn't even look at the 3 pt line. 

In that same way, either we have to find ways to get guys the ball in their spot or guys will have to change the way they play.  Either way, it's going to take some time and these are the growing pains.

Oh.. Smeddley asked why guys have to change?...  Well, part of that is Dwight's fault.  You don't bring one of the best PNR players in the history of the game and don't play PNR.  So some of this falls back on Bud.  If I were him, I'd be watching Utah Jazz tapes from 87-99.

 

 

 

 

Damn.  Another excellent post.  You get 2 Crying Native Americans for this.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Howard currently has a Win Score per 48 minute number of .173

Horford had a Win Score per 48 minute number of .172 last season.

Two different players, who equally impacted the game in significant, but different ways.

 

 

Meanwhile, Baze has a .008 Win Score per 48.

.008

There have only been a few guys who were starters or spot rotation players, that have played this bad in Hawks history.   Here is the Hawks All-Star team for Win Score/48 futility

PG - Jacque Vaughn ( -.002 ) . . . 2003 - 04

G - Demarr Johnson ( .000 ) . . . 2000 - 01

F - Kent Bazemore ( .008 ) . . . 2016 - 17

PF - Antoine Walker ( .004 ) . . . 2004 - 05 ( MVP )

C - Jason Collier ( .000 ) . . . 2004 - 05 ( RIP )

 

6th man - Acie Law ( .-007 ) . . . ( 2007 - 08 )

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Kimsey said:

Even with a slow starting Millsap, our frontcourt duo is right up there production wise (pts. and rbs) with Griffin and Jordan. 

 

According to hoopsstats.com, our frontcourt is ranked #7 in the league.

The backcourt?  28th

[kurupt]

First off, I think the Howard signing is still good in hindsight and he is playing well enough. Some games are better than others, but he generally is doing what he was brought in to do.

With that being said, Howard does not get more shot because

a) He has nights/quarters/halves where he cannot even be bothered to get into good position against guys like John Henson. If you can't do that, then sorry, you are not getting shots.

b) His hands are not very good, sometimes outright terrible. There are so many (good!) fumbled passes and missed dunks/layups.

c) He cannot post up and he never could. He used to just overpower people, but that athleticism is gone and so is his scoring out of the post-up.

d) He slips way too many screens early on the P&R, which does not give the Guard any separation and his own man often times hasn't even stepped out yet - ruining the play before it really begins. It's just lazy/half-assed a lot of times.

We had some posts here outlining that Howard was essentially top5 in the NBA in post touches, post-ups etc. already. That's good enough.

And if you wonder why a player like Schröder takes more shots: because he, unlike Dwight, can create them himself. And shooting 45% is actually pretty good for a PG, but that's probably beyond some people in here.

The Hawks problem is that they don't have a single starting calibre SG or SF right now and Dennis freaking Schröder is the teams 3rd best 3-point shooter by far.

Edited December 16, 2016 by kurupt

[benhillboy]

6 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Howard currently has a Win Score per 48 minute number of .173

Horford had a Win Score per 48 minute number of .172 last season.

Two different players, who equally impacted the game in significant, but different ways.

 

 

Meanwhile, Baze has a .008 Win Score per 48.

.008

There have only been a few guys who were starters or spot rotation players, that have played this bad in Hawks history.   Here is the Hawks All-Star team for Win Score/48 futility

PG - Jacque Vaughn ( -.002 ) . . . 2003 - 04

G - Demarr Johnson ( .000 ) . . . 2000 - 01

F - Kent Bazemore ( .008 ) . . . 2016 - 17

PF - Antoine Walker ( .004 ) . . . 2004 - 05 ( MVP )

C - Jason Collier ( .000 ) . . . 2004 - 05 ( RIP )

 

6th man - Acie Law ( .-007 ) . . . ( 2007 - 08 )

 

You should've mentioned Dennis at .074, nothing to write home about.  Maybe I'm old school, but a PG, let alone a 170 pounder, taking the most shots on a team while turning it over thrice is just in poor taste.  We got Isaiah Iverson over here. 

And senior members here should also know better than to cite Dwight's raw numbers and proclaim it fact he's been great for the team.  He's not (imho).

Al and Jeff are hardly missed on the board and having some negative effects on their teams (Indy's defensive spirit is gone, Bradley regularly steals rebounds from Al, it's hilarious). Dwight is the variable between the beautiful brand of regular season ball we saw the past 3 years that never encountered a 3 game skid and this "get blown out by 30+ in consecutive games" bull.  Don't look now but we're below average and falling in team rebounding, his only calling card that he gave the illusion to fixing all by himself early on.

I think this season is just a culmination of all the years top-notch FAs don't consider Atlanta.  And it continues with the best fitting wing available in Hayward likely not even taking a call.  That and the talent evaluators asleep at the wheel when agreeing to bring Kyle and Baze back. I'm watching the Buck's wings like goddamn!  They could literally eat ours.

Edited December 16, 2016 by benhillboy

[DS17Fanboy]

How you can still blame Dennis for taking the shots that he takes is beyond me. For 90% it are good shots, taking what the defensive gives. One 12/19 Bucks game with one heat test is suddenly "170 lbs PG Isiah Iverson out there". GTFO with your nonsensical hating Diesel. The kid is doing his best for everyone and is the only toeing the line for this franchise atm. If you wanna start this "stats player" thing then look no further than your own guy...Dennis digs deep in to him self each game, flying across the court like a bowling pin, getting hurt each game, standing up again, sweating like a pig, while trying to communicate.. Can not say that about Howard. At all. Not that I excpect him to early in the season, but we have to get better right now. Only guy doing exactly that is Dennis.

Edited December 16, 2016 by DS17Fanboy

[thecampster]

16 hours ago, Sothron said:

I...I can't even....oh Soth be a good guy and don't go for the low hanging fruit....

There should be a Like +10 button.  Did he honestly say, "who only sees the game one way"?  SMH

[thecampster]

50 minutes ago, DS17Fanboy said:

How you can still blame Dennis for taking the shots that he takes is beyond me. For 90% it are good shots, taking what the defensive gives. One 12/19 Bucks game with one heat test is suddenly "170 lbs PG Isiah Iverson out there". GTFO with your nonsensical hating Diesel. The kid is doing his best for everyone and is the only toeing the line for this franchise atm. If you wanna start this "stats player" thing then look no further than your own guy...Dennis digs deep in to him self each game, flying across the court like a bowling pin, getting hurt each game, standing up again, sweating like a pig, while trying to communicate.. Can not say that about Howard. At all. Not that I excpect him to early in the season, but we have to get better right now. Only guy doing exactly that is Dennis.

The kid, 5 times a game at least, drives to the basket with his head down, finds himself among the trees and out of real estate and tries an emergency wrap around pass at the feet of a 7 footer. Dennis is playing like Allen Iverson right now and not Rondo. He is stuffing his own stat sheet at the expense of other players.  There is no universe where Dennis should be taking more shots a game than Paul Millsap or nearly as many shots as Howard and Korver combined (Dennis = 355, Howard+Korver=376).

A point guard needs to penetrate and at 10-12 feet from the basket know his options. In Dennis' head right now his options begin as: 1) quick underhand soft kiss of the glass, 2) giant killer off the glass 3) reverse of the glass, 4) drive through underneath and set it back up, 5) panic and find someone to bail me out.  The kid is lightning quick and this works for him pretty often, but its terrible basketball. It puts everyone out of position to get back on defense, leads to easy breaks the other way and frustrates your teammates.

[DS17Fanboy]

vor einer Stunde, thecampster sagte:

The kid, 5 times a game at least, drives to the basket with his head down, finds himself among the trees and out of real estate and tries an emergency wrap around pass at the feet of a 7 footer. Dennis is playing like Allen Iverson right now and not Rondo. He is stuffing his own stat sheet at the expense of other players.  There is no universe where Dennis should be taking more shots a game than Paul Millsap or nearly as many shots as Howard and Korver combined (Dennis = 355, Howard+Korver=376).

A point guard needs to penetrate and at 10-12 feet from the basket know his options. In Dennis' head right now his options begin as: 1) quick underhand soft kiss of the glass, 2) giant killer off the glass 3) reverse of the glass, 4) drive through underneath and set it back up, 5) panic and find someone to bail me out.  The kid is lightning quick and this works for him pretty often, but its terrible basketball. It puts everyone out of position to get back on defense, leads to easy breaks the other way and frustrates your teammates.

You blame him for being good at penetrating and finishing. Some PG's have that quality. Most dont. Thats why. And what you speak of regarding "head down" etc is not happening "5 times a game at least". It surely happens but it happens less and less. What some of you dont understand, that it is like taking a three or any other kind of shot. Sometimes it doesnt fall and sometimes you run out of real estate. Dennis is still young and has that speed, so it is gonna be used. The team-mates not falling back on D and opponents scoring because of being caught by suprise or because of Dennis making a TO also happens maybe 2 times a game at max. But that again comes with the territory. Most the times his team-mates know exactly whats up and more often than the other way around they dont go or are not able to go where they are supposed to. Im looking at you Baze, Korver, Dwight. When I think Allen Iverson I think step-back jumpers and taking at least 5 shots more a game than Dennis. Rondo played with other people...and wasnt scoring...the "other people" did. You know, guys like Garnett, Allen, Pierce...

Anyway, if want to talk "stat-player" like Diesel tried on Dennis you should look no further than Diesel's beloved Dwight. Because Dennis is forced to do allot on his own, getting hurt while doing so and is hustling his ass of in depratments of the game you rarely get the common stats for. A complete reverse of the situation actually.

Edited December 16, 2016 by DS17Fanboy

[StephenHawking]

Stat padding is Howards second name. 

I can't take people seriously who glorify Howards on-court actions.

Yes he's a good rebounder. But he's solely playing for the stat sheet. I mean come on you have to be blind to miss this obvious fact.

Hes not even doing anything other than rebounding AT ALL. Hes hurting the team in every other aspect of the game.

-no perimeter defense

-no game on offense

-terrible turnovers 

-playing stupid dirty

-really lazy 

-affects the team with his mood swings

[StephenHawking]

& I can do nothing but laugh at Diesels stubbornness when it comes to Howard-Horford.

Yeah go ahead blame it on Dennis. Sure it's him not making a system work which is based on a completely different type of center.

Its not Howards fault for setting the worst screens possible or Coach Buds for not recognition that you simply can't create open looks with no solid screens and a center glued to the paint not able to catch the easiest pass. No let's blame it on Dennis for not creating somehow open looks for Kyle who relied completely on Horfords screens or Baze for his bad play. Let's blame it on Dennis because he cant make something work what you cant fix even though he's the only one putting his heart into the game against the magic sticking  like a junkyard dog to his man. 

Let's blame it on Dennis the first season starting PG playing in no way worse than Teague did. Hes the only one performing steady and provides many open looks for the others. But let's not blame it on the horrible open look shooting-fgs from the 3pt-line.

Let's keep it simple. Let's blame Dennis. 

[macdaddy]

I can understand if you just don't like Howard's game and didn't want him here.   I just don't understand what you expected and wanted him to do that he isn't doing.?    Please answer that question.   

[StephenHawking]

vor 19 Stunden, Lurker sagte:

 

Korver and Bazemore are missing a center that is a good pick and roll defender horribly. Since the Hawks aren't going to adjust how they play on defense at all for some reason, they need a PNR defender at center much more than a rim protector. It's what I was afraid of, we're seeing the issues every single game now.

THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.

People miss out totally on this. 

We NEED a good PnR player on offense as well as on defense as starting C. It costs us every game. You can blame this particular issue and in my opinion the biggest issue on two people: Coach Bud & D8

Coach Bud HAS TO change our defensive schemes to at least stop a bit of the bleeding. It was a huge mistake at first to pickup Howard but don't set up the offensive and defensive schemes and players to make good things happen. Korver and Baze and all the other spot up guys simply rely on good PnR. And that's where I partially blame Howard. Bud seemed to think he can make the PnR work with Howard but as everyone can see now he's way to lazy and silly to play good PnR and defend it well. 

Our system is broken. Change the whole budball and trapping defense. It won't work. 

 

[StephenHawking]

vor 7 Minuten, macdaddy sagte:

I can understand if you just don't like Howard's game and didn't want him here.   I just don't understand what you expected and wanted him to do that he isn't doing.?    Please answer that question.   

I don't want him to make silly decisions at his age at a horrifying rate. 

I want him to move his ass on PnR offensively and defensively because he could,due to his physique, play it very well. But he's concerned to not get his rebounds. Thats my problem. Hes lazy and silly. 

[Trout7]

You could make an immediate improvement to the team by replacing Muscala with Humphries, and by replacing Bazemore with Hardaway and Sefalosha. The 70 million signing of a cheerleader is by far the worst contract in Hawks history.

[Trout7]

I have got to take a break from this forum, it is making me nauseous thinking about someone making 70 million dollars for what he does. I am going back to the real world for a while.

[macdaddy]

25 minutes ago, StephenHawking said:

I don't want him to make silly decisions at his age at a horrifying rate. 

I want him to move his ass on PnR offensively and defensively because he could,due to his physique, play it very well. But he's concerned to not get his rebounds. Thats my problem. Hes lazy and silly. 

PnR is a valid complaint.  I get that.   Lazy and silly I'm just not seeing a ton of examples of.   Is it possible that he's concerned about getting his rebounds because that's what he's been told to do?   I mean that's why we brought  him in here.   It's not like he jacks a shot everytime he touches the ball and I've certainly seen no clowning out of him on the court.   

[sillent]

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 8:49 AM, Sothron said:

Dwight has been everything we thought he would be. He has been an exceptional signing to this team. Unlike Horford, Dwight actually rebounds and plays interior defense.

Once again, you are tilting at windmills. Dwight is not the problem. We have two effective starters on our team in Dennis and Dwight. Everyone else is suspect.

Bazemore is shaping up into Allan Henderson 2.0 the wing version. Now that he's gotten his fat contract he's not giving a rip about his on court production.

 

I  wanted to like this but I have to correct it. You're forgetting our best player in Paul Millsap. Dennis may soon be in the following years & yes Dwight  is not the problem & we expect him to  do his major damage in the playoffs but he has been very serviceable & even hitting his free throws at a better rate recently. Baze should be behind Prince at this point until his head stops swelling & gets focused enough to actually  get in the game & actually be  productive instead of a cancer.