Coach Bud

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Everyone is overlooking that Dennis was SUCKING after the first quarter.  In the second and 3rd quarter he was 2-8 with 1 assist in 11 minutes.     Announcers had already indicated that there was bickering before the incident with Dwight.   

You can't have it both ways, either it's pulled for sucking basketball wise or discipline seeung that Delaney and Baze were sucking as well.

[macdaddy]

6 minutes ago, Watchman said:

As I said, I didn't get to see the game until the last few minutes, but if Dwight and Schröder were arguing, I would have to assume that Dwight didn't get back on defense either.  That was my point.

It was a defensive rebound and outlet pass by Dwight.  Dwight led him but Dennis wasn't moving so it was way too far in front of him.  Dwight was already back on defense.   That may have just been luck.

[Watchman]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

It was a defensive rebound and outlet pass by Dwight.  Dwight led him but Dennis wasn't moving so it was way too far in front of him.  Dwight was already back on defense.   That may have just been luck.

Oh thanks.  I had a mistaken assumption that Dwight and Dennis were arguing in the backcourt while Curry was shooting an open 3.

[macdaddy]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

You can't have it both ways, either it's pulled for sucking basketball wise or discipline seeung that Delaney and Baze were sucking as well.

What?  He was pulled because he's immature and acting out.   But everyone here is acting like that lost us the game and Bud's decision to bench us made us lose to the Warriors.   My point is that he deserved to be benched for his behaviour and we would have lost anyway because he was sucking.   

[Guest]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

What?  He was pulled because he's immature and acting out.   But everyone here is acting like that lost us the game and Bud's decision to bench us made us lose to the Warriors.   My point is that he deserved to be benched for his behaviour and we would have lost anyway because he was sucking.   

I have no issue with Bud yanking him for that incident,  but you added because he was 'sucking'. 

My point is, I disagree with the benching for the rest of the game. It was an in-game teachable moment for Bud and he failed - that's how I see it.

[AUhawksfan]

I'm on the fence with Bud.  I don't know if it's him getting more power on the GM side or just getting comfortable but he seems to be getting a lot more stubborn these days than he showed early on in Atlanta.

I do agree he failed this game in how he dealt with Dennis.  If you want to pull him fine, but not for the whole game and it does seem partial that he did that with Dennis and pretty much ignored Dwight.  Thankfully I don't think Dennis is too pissed but he does deserve a good explanation and they all need to get back on the same page.

A good playoff showing can fix a lot of things.  Not saying that's going to happen but I am curious if Bud is making strange adjustments, decisions, etc. in order to get things straightened out before the playoffs.  The problem I have is that it's at the expense of the team and our record.  I guess I'm just trying to make some sense of this.

[StephenHawking]

vor 50 Minuten, macdaddy sagte:

Everyone is looking at small samples.   Bud's track record as a coach is that his teams have overachieved every year.   There's no real denying that. 

I agree that continuing to play Baze and Thabo big minutes is a huge problem.   But the bigger problem is that there aren't any great alternatives.   I'm all for giving the rooks playing time but that's probably not going to change our current win total.  It would help for next year though.  

I blame Bud for not getting any shooters in the offseason and failing to address the wing issue at the deadline.   Calderon and Ersan are good pickups though.

As for Dennis.   He needs to get his head on straight.   Bud had no choice but to bench him.   There are no successful teams that let players slide on crap like this.   Bud is trying to teach him the right way to lead.   Oh, and Calderon didn't play because he hasn't even had one practice.  Let's give it a few days. 

 

First of all by what measurements was Bud overachieving?

Secondly imo we have enough talent on the bench to hand playtime to instead of Thabo and Baze. As you stated yourself it probably wouldn't change us record wise so whats the problem with giving Bembry and Prince more minutes? They'd maybe even proof to be great rotational players already but we'll never know if bud likes Dunleavy and other old guys better. And how come Calderón wasnt an option yesterday? It doesn't matter if he didn't practice with the team yet. Did you see Delaney out there yesterday? Standing in the halfcourt trying not to travel was basically all he did. In how far could've played a veteran like Calderón worse?

Thirdly that treatment isn't at all common on successful teams. On the Spurs yes but that's about it. Bud is the real problem and he's been the problem all season long. 

I only agree with blaming bud for not addressing the issue of an sf in the off season and that ersan and Calderón are good pick ups. 

Let's face it Bud got the pass for way to long. People always be like 'thats part of the system', 'its part of a longer process'. Well, I'm sick of that shit. There's no system. There is no system in giving howard a contract and playing schemes he does not fit in. There is no system in playing an undersized player at sf as a starter. There is no system in going for win now and blow games for education measures. There is no system in playing old veterans who can't provide more than the rookie out of college. There is no system. Maybe there was a system. But bud now has a completely different team and fails to recognise it. 

Its beyond me how you collapse into the paint and double everytime having howard in the paint. Its beyond me thinking Bazemore or Thabo can stand their ground against guys like Hayward Bronbron or George. Its beyond me to blow games regularly due to bad live game decisionmaking. Its beyond me to think at the start of the season that Howard is able to play the PnR. I really don't get the direction our coaching staff is heading with this team. I dont think the players know either. I don't think the owners know either.

HELL i don't even think Bud knows.

 

[Gray Mule]

"Common sense is not a flower that blooms in every garden!"

Maturity.  Take it from the old man, there is a shortage of maturity in the

Atlanta Hawks with both their players and their entire coaching staff,

including, but not limited to, the head coach, Bud.

Dennis and Dwight were acting like two ten year old boys.  Then, Bud acted

just as bad as they did when he benched Dennis and didn't let him back

in the game.  Instead of having a good, father to son chat with him. then

putting him back in, he benched, then ignored him.

There is something very wrong with the Atlanta Hawks.  They get burned,

game after game, as every opponent pays "bombs away" from behind the

three point line.  They have no plans or ideas on how to stop this.

We knew, before the season began, that D8 was a 50% man from the

free throw line.  But, lo and behold, now the entire team is having trouble

scoring from there.  Why?  What can we do to fix this?

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Gray Mule said:

"Common sense is not a flower that blooms in every garden!"

Maturity.  Take it from the old man, there is a shortage of maturity in the

Atlanta Hawks with both their players and their entire coaching staff,

including, but not limited to, the head coach, Bud.

Dennis and Dwight were acting like two ten year old boys.  Then, Bud acted

just as bad as they did when he benched Dennis and didn't let him back

in the game.  Instead of having a good, father to son chat with him. then

putting him back in, he benched, then ignored him.

There is something very wrong with the Atlanta Hawks.  They get burned,

game after game, as every opponent pays "bombs away" from behind the

three point line.  They have no plans or ideas on how to stop this.

We knew, before the season began, that D8 was a 50% man from the

free throw line.  But, lo and behold, now the entire team is having trouble

scoring from there.  Why?  What can we do to fix this?

It's going to have to be fixed in the offseason.   Thabo and Baze are bad on offense but also aren't defending the 3 well either.   So play somebody who at least does one of those things.   

Ersan is a big pickup and should be playing more.   The guy is smart and talented.   I don't know how many minutes we can get away with playing Sap at the 3 but Sap/Ersan/Dwight is tough.  Let's play the talent if we aren't playing the rooks.

[Duff_Man]

13 hours ago, LK6969 said:

He has been totally exposed. His defensive schemes are retarded at best. How many times do we have 3 to 4 players collapsing the paint (when we have D.Howard there to defend it) only to get the ball thrown out onto the perimeter, swung around to a super hot 3 point shooter who is WIDE PUCKING OPEN. Like literally every single time down the floor. WAKE UP BUD. YOU DUI SCUM. UR A DISGRACE.

 

Also the benching of Dennis was flat out retarded. There are many more examples. Bud's rotation is retarded too. Too many minutes for Baze. Too few for Dennis. Leaving Malcom in for extended periods while our offense suffers. Bud just makes the "standard" substitutions I.E., when the opposing starter PG comes in, Dennis will come in. It's fuckknig stupid. Let's Dennis come in earlier and TORCH the 2nd string PG.

W/e, I'm done. Bud is retarded. He shouldn't be GM, and he should barely be coach. I don't know. This is a talented team. More proper lobs for D. Howard and we should be shooting mass 3 pointers like every other f***ing team in the league. We have the talent for it.

Bud is stupid. Can his ass. 

This is bad on a lot of levels. 

[Atlantaholic]

There are probably reasons beyond what we can see on the tv screen as to why Dennis is on a short leash. There have been issues with Dennis' attitude since he was a rookie, and I'm sure Bud is more concerned with Dennis' long term development than the fate of one or two regular season games during a year where we clearly aren't talented enough to compete for a championship anyway. It's quite possible that there is stuff going on regularly in practice and in the locker room that has Bud reacting so harshly to Dennis' seemingly relatively harmless antics during games.

Also, as far as the rookies go, let's not judge this coaching staff harshly on how they develop young players, since it is the one thing they have done exceptionally well since Bud took over. THJR, and Dennis have both flourished after looking really, really rough early on in their careers. I'm sure they know what they are doing with Prince and Bembry. 

I know this season has been frustrating, but if you take a look at where every sports media outlet had our roster rated before the beginning of the season, it's hard to say we have underachieved. This roster still needs some significant retooling before we can compete with the big boys, and I'm sure the Hawks' staff recognizes this and is focusing on evaluation rather than results right now.

 

[Bankingitbig]

I see a ton of overreacting... I wasn't happy with the decision to bench Dennis and think there may be more to it than we know. But calling for Bud's head as a coach? That's ridiculous..... Who are you going to replace him with? There aren't great options out there. He is one of the better coaches in the league even if I don't always agree with his rotations.

In regards to the SF problem, what team isn't looking for a strong wing player? Literally it's the most valued position in the league. You can't just go and find them on the street. In the offseason, management decided that Baze would be a solution and frankly his play last year possibly justified that decision. On top of that, management decided to spend two first round picks on wings. So obviously they tried to find a solution. There wasn't a true solution at the trade deadline. Should they have traded future assets for a guy PJ Tucker who is practically a duplicate of Thabo? Also, I am a big fan of Prince and Bembry, but let's not get ahead of ourselves in terms of their actual performance. They haven't been that amazing with the limited time that they have had. Granted one could make the case that its because they haven't seen a lot of time on the floor.

I am in favor of Bud the coach. His teams are generally top 5 in defense and that's where we are today. That said, I do think our protect the paint and force double teams defense is more positively skewed when we play bad/average teams, whereas good teams like the Warriors and Cavs that know how to pass the ball a lot can easily abuse our defense for wide open threes. I do think Bud is pulling off a little too much to chew as a relatively new head coach and being a GM.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Bankingitbig

[StephenHawking]

vor 9 Minuten, Atlantaholic sagte:

There are probably reasons beyond what we can see on the tv screen as to why Dennis is on a short leash. There have been issues with Dennis' attitude since he was a rookie, and I'm sure Bud is more concerned with Dennis' long term development than the fate of one or two regular season games during a year where we clearly aren't talented enough to compete for a championship anyway. It's quite possible that there is stuff going on regularly in practice and in the locker room that has Bud reacting so harshly to Dennis' seemingly relatively harmless antics during games.

Also, as far as the rookies go, let's not judge this coaching staff harshly on how they develop young players, since it is the one thing they have done exceptionally well since Bud took over. THJR, and Dennis have both flourished after looking really, really rough early on in their careers. I'm sure they know what they are doing with Prince and Bembry. 

I know this season has been frustrating, but if you take a look at where every sports media outlet had our roster rated before the beginning of the season, it's hard to say we have underachieved. This roster still needs some significant retooling before we can compete with the big boys, and I'm sure the Hawks' staff recognizes this and is focusing on evaluation rather than results right now.

 

Two questions:

Why give Howard a big long term deal when we're not in win now mode? That's as stupid as it gets. You have to go all the way then. 

Are you basing overachieving on expectations made of experts from the bigger media platforms? 

You should know they usually are going to hype up the teams with a big fanbase and let the teams with less fans slip under the table. Its their job to create clicks and generate hype. Therefore you'll always see the same teams expected to make big leaps and the same teams expected to fall in the rankings. 

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, StephenHawking said:

Two questions:

Why give Howard a big long term deal when we're not in win now mode? That's as stupid as it gets. You have to go all the way then. 

Are you basing overachieving on expectations made of experts from the bigger media platforms? 

You should know they usually are going to hype up the teams with a big fanbase and let the teams with less fans slip under the table. Its their job to create clicks and generate hype. Therefore you'll always see the same teams expected to make big leaps and the same teams expected to fall in the rankings. 

Dwight didn't sign a long term deal.  It's 3 years which I'm sure is the minimum it took to get him.  The plan was to have Sap, Horford and Howard but that failed.  

But Bud's teams have overachieved.  Look at the talent we've been working with and we've been top 5 in the east for 3 years.   

[StephenHawking]

vor 6 Minuten, Bankingitbig sagte:

I see a ton of overreacting... I wasn't happy with the decision to bench Dennis and think there may be more to it than we know. But calling for Bud's head as a coach? That's ridiculous..... Who are you going to replace him with? There aren't great options out there. He is one of the better coaches in the league even if I don't always agree with his rotations.

In regards to the SF problem, what team isn't looking for a strong wing player? Literally it's the most valued position in the league. You can't just go and find them on the street. In the offseason, management decided that Baze would be a solution and frankly his play last year possibly justified that decision. On top of that, management decided to spend two first round picks on wings. So obviously they tried to find a solution. There wasn't a true solution at the trade deadline. Should they have traded future assets for a guy PJ Tucker who is practically a duplicate of Thabo? Also, I am a big fan of Prince and Bembry, but let's not get ahead of ourselves in terms of their actual performance. They haven't been that amazing with the limited time that they have had. Granted one could make the case that its because they haven't seen a lot of time on the floor.

I am in favor of Bud the coach. His teams are generally top 5 in defense and that's where we are today. That said, I do think our protect the paint and force double teams defense is more positively skewed when we play bad/average teams, whereas good teams like the Warriors and Cavs that know how to pass the ball a lot can easily abuse our defense for wide open threes. I do think Bud is pulling off a little too much to chew as a relatively new head coach and being a GM.

Its not overreacting to the case yesterday. To me its the cherry on top of a big ice bucket he shuffled all season long. 

I gotta admit I don't know options as coach or gm but I'm not happy with what he's doing. As i said before he's great at developing talent. Maybe that should be his job. But his schemes don't work. Look I'm a big soccer fan since I'm 5 year old or so. Great coaches in soccer adjust their tactics to whoever they play against. With bud it seems like there's literally only one scheme. It works vs teams with real bad 3pt shooters but not vs the majority of the league who has at least to 2 valuable options from 3 point territory. 

Also I don't even want us to pick up a great SF. I'd like to just have another guy who's even size and athletic wise able to play SF. We only have Prince and he certainly didn't get enough playing time so far..let's be real.

[StephenHawking]

vor 6 Minuten, macdaddy sagte:

Dwight didn't sign a long term deal.  It's 3 years which I'm sure is the minimum it took to get him.  The plan was to have Sap, Horford and Howard but that failed.  

But Bud's teams have overachieved.  Look at the talent we've been working with and we've been top 5 in the east for 3 years.   

I know what the plan was. To me 3 years is too long considering his age and us apparently not being in win now mode. 

The whole league is scratching their heads watching the Hawks FO do their thing. Nobody knows what they are up to. They don't know themselves I believe

[StephenHawking]

I'd like to hear your thoughts MACDADDY on our defensive schemes and in how far bud changed/should've changed them with Howard on board. 

What would be your rotation?

How many minutes you'd play the rookies?

 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

"Common sense is not a flower that blooms in every garden!"

Maturity.  Take it from the old man, there is a shortage of maturity in the

Atlanta Hawks with both their players and their entire coaching staff,

including, but not limited to, the head coach, Bud.

Dennis and Dwight were acting like two ten year old boys.  Then, Bud acted

just as bad as they did when he benched Dennis and didn't let him back

in the game.  Instead of having a good, father to son chat with him. then

putting him back in, he benched, then ignored him.

There is something very wrong with the Atlanta Hawks.  They get burned,

game after game, as every opponent pays "bombs away" from behind the

three point line.  They have no plans or ideas on how to stop this.

We knew, before the season began, that D8 was a 50% man from the

free throw line.  But, lo and behold, now the entire team is having trouble

scoring from there.  Why?  What can we do to fix this?

V.O.R. - Voice of Reason.  @Gray Mule.  Well said Gramps.

A big part of the Hawks problem is lack of locker room leadership from any one player.  No one voice to lead them from the players.  Sap is the best player but too quiet, he's the lead by example kind, Dwight- not following him anywhere, Baze - not good enough.  Thabo - nope.

Bud with his rotating captain game by game nonsense leaves a big leadership void.

 

Seems like Dennis and Dwight are past it - therefore, so am I.

 

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, StephenHawking said:

I'd like to hear your thoughts MACDADDY on our defensive schemes and in how far bud changed/should've changed them with Howard on board. 

What would be your rotation?

How many minutes you'd play the rookies?

 

As someone pointed out, the rookies haven't been that impressive so it's hard to say they should be getting 20 minutes a night.   

I think the defensive scheme is ok but Baze and Thabo have become ineffective at guarding the perimeter and playing them together sucks.   So I'd start Hardaway.  He's not a great defender but i actually think he'd guard the 3 better than Baze because he doesn't take as many chances.   I also would have started Prince earlier in the season and let him take his lumps.   If he really can't contribute then move on but at least see what happens.  

When we are successful on D we aggressively double.   But often we just weakly double and then can't get back to our guy or the rest of the D can't catch up.   

As for rotations, now that we have Calderon and Ersan, and being realistic about what Bud is willing to do i'd start Dennis/Tim/Thabo/Sap/Dwight and rotate in Calderon, Baze, Prince, and Ersan.   That's pretty much it.    If it was me i'd still see what Prince can bring as a starter.  Why not?  But that's not really a realistic move given what he's shown so far. 

I predict that if we make improvements the rest of the way it will be mostly because we brought in 2 vets who have good games and can shoot.   Bud has a lot of GM failings but these guys are winning moves.

 

 

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

V.O.R. - Voice of Reason.  @Gray Mule.  Well said Gramps.

A big part of the Hawks problem is lack of locker room leadership from any one player.  No one voice to lead them from the players.  Sap is the best player but too quiet, he's the lead by example kind, Dwight- not following him anywhere, Baze - not good enough.  Thabo - nope.

Bud with his rotating captain game by game nonsense leaves a big leadership void.

 

Seems like Dennis and Dwight are past it - therefore, so am I.

 

Awesome!   I totally think this blow up is a good thing.   I'm repeating myself but I was so tired quiet mediocrity.   They are arguing because they are passionate and they care and they want badly to win.   The Nets should get smoked.