The Problem is Dennis.

[Vol4ever]

21 hours ago, hawkman said:

All of what you say is true but you have to give Schro some time to develop those aspects of his game. If he has the same issues next season, then we can revisit this.

Dennis refuses to pass the ball inside.  I have watched several replays and he will pass around the perimter.  

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, rd79 said:

Per 36... Even if it were true... what's about better competition as a starter and a significant rise of minutes? I'd say matching per 36 numbers is a good thing in one's 1st year as a starter... But what do I know...

"Doesn't really run the offence" - If I only got €1 every time somebody used this phrase without further explanations... 

Here's the thing.  As our BU last year, Dennis saw roughly 1/2 of the minutes that the starter did.    There was not that much of a drop off in competition.   People are saying that Dennis will learn how to get more people involved in the offense.  He hasn't shown that yet.   He might be.. who he is...and his stubbornness (similar to Smoove) will not allow him to change from it. 

 

 

[hawkman]

1 hour ago, Vol4ever said:

Dennis refuses to pass the ball inside.  I have watched several replays and he will pass around the perimter.  

I've noticed that as well. There were times when Dwight had his man sealed under the basket and Schro would look at him and then dribble to the opposite side of the court. I'm hoping some maturity will help him to look past interpersonal issues and just play the game the right way for the benefit of the team.

[Thomas]

21 hours ago, macdaddy said:

There were only 3 playoff teams that shot under 35% for the year.   Us, Thunder and Bulls.   Those 3 teams had combined 5 playoff wins this year and all three booted from the 1st round.     

Incredibly telling fact there. The three pointer is such a huge part of the game now you can't just be above average anymore. Have to excel.

[ISOJOE]

Why are y'all answering to @Diesel . He had his chance. It's not the first thread he opened to call out Dennis.

It's a waste of time because he's willful hater who won't be able/ doesn't want to follow opposing arguments. 

Dennis Schröder is not a problem and certainly not the problem.

Our wing rotation is bottom 5-8, the starting center doesn't like picknrolls and can't provide spacing/ run picknpop, no consistent shooter in the starting lineup (again; less spacing), no capable secondary ballhandler (no ballhandling relief -> defensive effort can't be very high).

What do you expect from a first-year starter?

Did you forget all his strenghts? It doesn't fit. 

His contract is reasonable/almost a steal (good trade asset, in contrast to Howard and Baze) and the Hawks can keep him (along with Prince) in a case of a retool because he is young enough. He steps up in the playoffs and is still improving as a shooter.

I see limitations (can't be the first option of contender, needs a good secondary ballhandler around him etc.) but I don't see any real problems.

 

 

[Lurker]

Schröder's strengths are playing PNR with a versatile big and attacking switches (sometimes doing so and passing while doing so). His weaknesses are he's not confident with post passing and he sometimes gets too confident with his jumper.

That's pretty much it. I'm not just talking about playoff play, but you need to take a harder look at all plays. A play in which where a big slips the screen is a modified PNR play and he worked that a lot with Millsap during the year (and Millsap got some easy hoops through it).

[StephenHawking]

vor 14 Stunden, rd79 sagte:

Offseason is long and I fear that there will be a lot bullshit discussions like this here...

1. That pass from Parker is an example for great playmaking skills? Run into three defenders and somehow throw the ball back? 
2. Dennis can throw fancy passes, he did this even in his backup days. He didn't often in the playoffs, but that's how he managed to average only 1.7 turnovers a game. Something I would bet nobody, really nobody here would have even dreamed of!
3. Reason #1 for making less kicks on his drives: Dennis is much faster than others and often gets to the rim, so when he beats his man on the drive to the basket and has an open layup, who expects him to kick the ball? You only kick the ball if there is no good chance to finish yourself. Giving up a layup for an assist would be an empty assist
4. Reason #2 the guys waiting for the kick couldn't hit a barn this season!
5. Dennis taking ill advised 3pt attempts? He made 42.5% of his threes (2.8 of 6.7) in the playoffs.  Tim (26.2%) and Baze (29.2%) together 3 of 11 per game...
6. I dont have numbers but for my eyes it looked like Dennis passed more often into the post than he did in the regular season
7. Does it matter when Millsap lost some percentage on threes? Watching only him probably not, watching the difference of three point shooting of the combined starting 4 and 5 the answer is: YES! Whether Dwight's positives can match this is another question
8. Dwight looks like he doesn't care very often. During the regular season everybody said: "He'll deliver in the playoffs" but he didn't. Either he was hurt or he is unprofessional and shouldn't be paid that much to be that reluctant on the court

Like I already wrote somewhere else, Dennis still has a lot room for improvement, but blaming him for the setback in the playoffs is stupid. I hope that I now can keep my fingers off the keyboard at least until draft day

 

vor 8 Stunden, rd79 sagte:

Per 36... Even if it were true... what's about better competition as a starter and a significant rise of minutes? I'd say matching per 36 numbers is a good thing in one's 1st year as a starter... But what do I know...

"Doesn't really run the offence" - If I only got €1 every time somebody used this phrase without further explanations... 

 

vor 6 Stunden, macdaddy sagte:

It's really really simple.   There is nothing wrong with Dennis.   He's a really good PG.  The problem with the whole season was no 3 point shooting.     That's it.   You can dissect whether Dennis runs the offense or Dwight should get more touches or whatever but add in 3 point shooting and it all looks different.   

There were only 3 playoff teams that shot under 35% for the year.   Us, Thunder and Bulls.   Those 3 teams had combined 5 playoff wins this year and all three booted from the 1st round.     

Cosigning pretty much all of this. Although I really think D8 is the cherry on top of a no shooting team.

[kurupt]

All this BS without any base i nreality. f***ing Diesel even made some obviously wrong PER numbers up. WTF is wrong with  that dude?

First of all, I think that Howard did well this season. He did what could be expected of him and until a few days ago, I would have complimented his overall attitude, because he did not (publicly) complain – but I have to scrap that part. If he is not satisfied with what he got this season and isn't looking to improve filling out this role, his worth is severely diminished.

Now, to the matter at hand. Dwight Howard is 11^th in post touches in terms of frequency (excluding Edy Tavares with 1 game and Papagiannis with not enough minutes/plays). He is 33^rd in points per possession on post touches. There are only about 40 players that average 2 post touches per game and he is the 7th worst in PPP. This is due to his (at best) average 47% FG%, his high turnover rate and bad free throw shooting. You can also look at Post Touches (i.e. a pass and reception within the paint). Amongst players with at least 20 mpg, Howard leads the league here with 7.0 per game. Amongst the same group, Howard is also 1^st in the league with 8.0 Paint Touches (getting the ball within 8 5ft of the basket).

In my opinion this clearly shows that he arguably is overused on post-ups and not the other way around. He is essentially one of if not THE player in the league, that is most used as a traditional big man.

Now let’s look at him as a Pick&Roll player as the rolling man. Among 107 players that have more than 1 possession of this kind and have played more than 20 games, Howard has the 9^th lowest frequency as the roll man with 10.1%. Paul Millsap, for example, is at 23.4% (33^rd). Dwight Howard scores 1.18 PPP on these plays, which is 15^th among qualified players (Millsap has a paltry 0.86 PPP). Howards FG% of 66% is the 7^th best and his TO% 40% lower than on post-ups.

There is no way the Hawks should involve Howard in more post-plays. He already is used a ton compared to all other players and he is not very efficient at it.  He should be involved more often as the roll-man in P&R plays. But as Budenholzer already publicly said: he has to come out and set screens in the first place (and decent ones) to do that. His scoring would skyrocket. But Dwight doesn’t want that.

Let’s look at ball hog Schröder. Among 113 Guards (some players like Antetokounmpo are listed as Guards also) with at least 20 games played and 20 mpg, Schröder is 16^th with 57 passes per game. He is 14^th in assists (tied with known ball hog Mike Conley), 8^th in Secondary Assists (the “hockey assist”), 13^th in potential assists and 25^th in Asts/TO ratio. Considering the Hawks had the 8^th worst 3-point shooting percentage (with the 16^th most shots) and were only average on converting 2-point FGs, these numbers seem pretty okay.

 

So if your pont is that a 17th pick in his first year as a starter is only an average passer, you are correct. If you think THAT is the problem, you are being an idiot (once more).

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by kurupt

[AHF]

(Let's avoid devolving this discussion into personal insults.)

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, kurupt said:

All this BS without any base i nreality. f***ing Diesel even made some obviously wrong PER numbers up. WTF is wrong with  that dude?

Season    Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G GS   MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB  AST STL BLK TOV  PF   PTS ORtg DRtg
2015-16    22 ATL NBA  PG  80  6 1621 10.0 23.8 .421 2.3 7.3 .322 7.7 16.5 .465 4.4 5.5 .791 0.8 5.5 6.2 10.6 2.1 0.3 5.6 4.2  26.8   97  103
2016-17    23 ATL NBA  PG  79 78 2485 10.9 24.1 .451 2.0 5.8 .340 8.9 18.3 .486 4.3 5.1 .855 0.8 4.1 4.9  9.9 1.5 0.3 5.1 3.0  28.1  103  109
Career                NBA 285 94 6263  9.8 22.7 .433 1.9 5.8 .331 7.9 16.9 .468 4.3 5.3 .818 0.8 4.6 5.4 10.0 1.7 0.2 5.2 3.7  25.8  100  107

 

I get that you're a nuthugger for Dennis.. however, before you attack me personal and call me a liar, check your facts.  Per36, Dennis is the same guy as last year.  In fact, he gives less assists and less rebounds. 

[rd79]

@DieselMore efficient and less turnovers. It's really hard not to attack you personally because you are obviously trolling. 

By the way Dennis never gives the ball to Dwight and he only gets the ball from rebounding...

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by rd79

[kurupt]

vor 1 Stunde, Diesel sagte:

Season    Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G GS   MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB  AST STL BLK TOV  PF   PTS ORtg DRtg
2015-16    22 ATL NBA  PG  80  6 1621 10.0 23.8 .421 2.3 7.3 .322 7.7 16.5 .465 4.4 5.5 .791 0.8 5.5 6.2 10.6 2.1 0.3 5.6 4.2  26.8   97  103
2016-17    23 ATL NBA  PG  79 78 2485 10.9 24.1 .451 2.0 5.8 .340 8.9 18.3 .486 4.3 5.1 .855 0.8 4.1 4.9  9.9 1.5 0.3 5.1 3.0  28.1  103  109
Career                NBA 285 94 6263  9.8 22.7 .433 1.9 5.8 .331 7.9 16.9 .468 4.3 5.3 .818 0.8 4.6 5.4 10.0 1.7 0.2 5.2 3.7  25.8  100  107

 

I get that you're a nuthugger for Dennis.. however, before you attack me personal and call me a liar, check your facts.  Per36, Dennis is the same guy as last year.  In fact, he gives less assists and less rebounds. 

1. No one disputed the fact that Schröders PER36 numbers are similar to last season, so I have no idea what your point is? Except moving the goalposts every time someone calls your made up shit out.

What you convieniently overlook is that these numbers were great for a 22-year old last year and put him in the 6th-man of the year conversation. The fact that he wa able to translate this numbers with higher playtime/responsibility, with more focus on him in terms of opponents gameplanning, against tougher opposition and with higher efficiency (less TOs, better shooting) is a positive. Yet somehow you spin it to be negative.

2. The PER numbers you posted were wrong. Others already called you out on that. So where did you get them from? I am curious.

3. Your point of Dennis being a ball hog and terrible hinges primarily on the fact that he doesn't "feed the post". You convieniently ignore all the stats me (and others before me) showing that he is getting the most post touches of all f***ing players in the whole f***ing league and he is pretty shit converting on these opportunities. You also ignore the fact that he could be an elite roll-man, but doesn't want to do it. And somehow Schröder is to blame for everything although he is already an average passing PG on a shitty shooting team in his first year. You ignore that fact, too.

Calling me a nuthugger when all you do is spew BS without any facts to back them up is hilarious. Seriously, I just hope you are trolling on pourpose, because anything else would be pretty sad.

Edited May 4, 2017 by kurupt

[rd79]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Season    Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G GS   MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB  AST STL BLK TOV  PF   PTS ORtg DRtg
2015-16    22 ATL NBA  PG  80  6 1621 10.0 23.8 .421 2.3 7.3 .322 7.7 16.5 .465 4.4 5.5 .791 0.8 5.5 6.2 10.6 2.1 0.3 5.6 4.2  26.8   97  103
2016-17    23 ATL NBA  PG  79 78 2485 10.9 24.1 .451 2.0 5.8 .340 8.9 18.3 .486 4.3 5.1 .855 0.8 4.1 4.9  9.9 1.5 0.3 5.1 3.0  28.1  103  109
Career                NBA 285 94 6263  9.8 22.7 .433 1.9 5.8 .331 7.9 16.9 .468 4.3 5.3 .818 0.8 4.6 5.4 10.0 1.7 0.2 5.2 3.7  25.8  100  107

 

I get that you're a nuthugger for Dennis.. however, before you attack me personal and call me a liar, check your facts.  Per36, Dennis is the same guy as last year.  In fact, he gives less assists and less rebounds. 

Yeah check your facts, you copied baskeball-reference's per 100 possessions numbers

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, kurupt said:

1. No one disputed the fact that Schröders PER36 numbers are similar to last season, so I have no idea what your point is? Except moving the goalposts every time someone calls your made up shit out.

What you convieniently overlook is that these numbers were great for a 22-year old last year and put him in the 6th-man of the year conversation. The fact that he wa able to translate this numbers with higher playtime/responsibility, with more focus on him in terms of opponents gameplanning, against tougher opposition and with higher efficiency (less TOs, better shooting) is a positive. Yet somehow you spin it to be negative.

 

Again.. You say I have "Made up BS"... However I presented you with the facts and you acknowledge them as facts..  

You are confused and contradicting. 

Then you say this:

Quote

The PER numbers you posted were wrong. Others already called you out on that. So where did you get them from?

These Per 36 Numbers come from basketball reference.  I'm pretty sure that Basketball reference is a very credible site.

Please continue attacking everybody's credibility in defense of Dennis.  It's entertaining now. 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, rd79 said:

Yeah check your facts, you copied baskeball-reference's per 100 possessions numbers

You're right... Let me fix that... I was trying to learn how to move tables...

[code]                                                                                                                                
Season    Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
2015-16    22 ATL NBA  PG  80  6 1621 7.3 17.3 .421 1.7 5.3 .322 5.6 12.0 .465 3.2 4.0 .791 0.6 4.0 4.5 7.8 1.6 0.2 4.1 3.1 19.5
2016-17    23 ATL NBA  PG  79 78 2485 7.9 17.6 .451 1.4 4.3 .340 6.5 13.3 .486 3.2 3.7 .855 0.6 3.0 3.6 7.2 1.1 0.2 3.7 2.2 20.5
[/code]

Provided by [url=http://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool]Basketball-Reference.com[/url]: [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/schrode01.html?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#per_minute]View Original Table[/url]
Generated 5/4/2017.

It doesn't change the facts.. 

[Wurider05]

Diesel--The Al Sharpton/Jesse Jackson of Hawksquawk.  He likes to get people riled up not matter how stupid his argument is. Has no other purpose than to push those buttons.  Dennis stepped up when we needed him to.  He didn't shrink when the spotlight was on him. was he suppose to force the ball to guys shooting 30 percent from the field. He is better than Teague right now and he is not costing us 20+ million a season. Can he improve? Hell yes. You remind me of my wife who likes have an argument just for the hell of it.

[rd79]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

You're right... Let me fix that... I was trying to learn how to move tables...

[code]                                                                                                                                
Season    Age  Tm  Lg Pos   G GS   MP  FG  FGA  FG%  3P 3PA  3P%  2P  2PA  2P%  FT FTA  FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS
2015-16    22 ATL NBA  PG  80  6 1621 7.3 17.3 .421 1.7 5.3 .322 5.6 12.0 .465 3.2 4.0 .791 0.6 4.0 4.5 7.8 1.6 0.2 4.1 3.1 19.5
2016-17    23 ATL NBA  PG  79 78 2485 7.9 17.6 .451 1.4 4.3 .340 6.5 13.3 .486 3.2 3.7 .855 0.6 3.0 3.6 7.2 1.1 0.2 3.7 2.2 20.5
[/code]

Provided by [url=http://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool]Basketball-Reference.com[/url]: [url=http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/schrode01.html?sr&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool#per_minute]View Original Table[/url]
Generated 5/4/2017.

It doesn't change the facts.. 

Yeah, facts are the same. But you see No improvement, drop in assists. I read it Improved shooting (2pt, 3pt, FTs) less turnovers in more minutes vs better competition.

The real question of this thread is. Are you a sadist who likes to torture us with your strange statements or are you a masochist who likes to get punished for that same statements... I really have no idea...

Option three could be @kg01 instructed you to punish me by bashing Dennis because I owned him more than once recently by having the better gif... But since you already did this before it must be the SM thing...
yes @kg01, just kidding you can stay the king of gifs, I enjoy being surprised by good gifs more than searching for them

Edited May 4, 2017 by rd79

[Guest]

I've been away awhile. I see the 'Offseason of Diesel Threads'  has started off with a bang.

There are many problems with this team. I can get to a bunch of others before Dennis.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, rd79 said:

Yeah, facts are the same. But you see No improvement, drop in assists. I read it Improved shooting (2pt, 3pt, FTs) less turnovers in more minutes vs better competition.

The real question of this thread is. Are you a sadist who likes to torture us with your strange statements or are you a masochist who likes to get punished for that same statements... I really have no idea...

Option three could be @kg01 instructed you to punish me by bashing Dennis because I owned him more than once recently by having the better gif... But since you already did this before it must be the SM thing...
yes @kg01, just kidding you can stay the king of gifs, I enjoy being surprised by good gifs more than searching for them

Ladies .... rd said I'm still the king o' gifs!!

[Thomas]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Improved shooting (2pt, 3pt, FTs) less turnovers in more minutes vs better competition.

Exactly. Against NBA starters.