David Aldridge article on Hawks / Ressler / GM

[Dejay]

13 hours ago, thecampster said:

The last 6 drafts....where the Hawks drafted and a list of players drafted after them they could have had.

2010 - 24th - Damion Jones (traded)

Available - Hassan Whiteside (33rd Sacramento), Lance Stephenson (40 Indiana).

2011 - 18th - Chris Singleton (Traded to Washington), 48th - Keith Benson

Available - Kenneth Faried (22), Nicolai Mirotic (23), Marshon Brooks (25), Jimmy Butler (30) (ouch), Chandler Parsons (38), Isaiah Thomas (60) (ouch).

2012 - 23rd - John Jenkins, 43rd - Mike Scott

Available - Miles Plumlee (26), Festus Ezeli (30), Jay Crowder (34), Draymond Green (35)(double ouch)

2013 - 17th Dennis Schröder, 18 - Traded to Dallas, 44 - Mike Muscala, 47 traded to Utah, 50 traded to Miami.

Available - Tim Hardaway Jr. (24)

2014 - 15 - Adreian Payne, 43 - Walter Tavares, 48 - Lamar Patterson

Available - Bogdan Bogdanovic (27)

2015 - 15 - Kelly Oubre Jr. (Traded to Washingon), 19 Jerian Grant (traded to New York), 50 Marcus Eriksson, 59 - Dimitrios Agravanis.

Available - Bobby Portis (22)

2016 - 12 - Taurean Prince, 21 - DeAndre Bembry, 44 - Isaia Cordinier, 54 Kay Felder (traded to Cleveland), 

Available - Paul Zipser (48)

 

Okay so why this list.  Lets have some fun and build a team from just the last 6 years the Hawks could have had. Current Hawks players are okay to use, players traded away and players missed. You can only add 1 player per draft slot in which he could have been taken. So lets redraft it.

2010 - Hassan Whitesite

2011 - Jimmy Butler, Isaiah Thomas (yes we could have had both.

2012 - Draymond Green

2013 - Dennis Schröder, Mike Muscala

2014 - Bogdan Bogdanovic, Waltar Tavares, Lamar Patterson

2015 - Kelly Oubre Jr, Jerian Grant

2016 - Taurean Prince, Deandry Bembry

 

Lineup -

PG - Isaiah Thomas, Dennis Schröder, Grant

SG - Jimmy Butler, Bembry, Patterson

SF - Taurean Prince, Oubre Jr.

PF - Draymond Green, Bogdanovic

C - Hassan Whiteside, Muscala, Tavares

 

I think I'm taken Sothron's side here (again). Drafting, talent recognition, player development. There are 2 roster spots open FYI. A couple Hawks can't be on this roster (like Teague (Prince deal)) but you can add back in any 2 Hawks signed in the last 5 years that weren't traded away for draft picks. For example, salary with this young team would have been young enough to resign Carroll and Al or to keep Paul this year.

I dare say a starting 5 of Thomas, Butler, Prince, Green, and Whiteside would look pretty darn nice next year.

IMHO, this proves why I DON'T trust a rebuild here more than anything. This is the kind of posts I use to put up in regard to the constant misses this franchise has had nearly every summer, with very few exceptions. Look at the potential lineup again. Only one of their original picks would've even been considered starting material, with the rest riding the pines or worse.

Plain and simply put, this team can't draft and just plain sucks at it. Passing up Butler and Thomas in the same effin draft? Do you trust them taking everything down and starting over? I just don't...

Edited May 10, 2017 by Dejay

[Sothron]

5 minutes ago, Dejay said:

IMHO, this proves why I DON'T trust a rebuild here more than anything. This is the kind of posts I use to put up in regard to the constant misses this franchise has had every summer, with very few exceptions. Look at the potential lineup again. Only one of their original picks would've even been considered starting material, with the rest riding the pines or worse.

Plain and simply put, this team can't draft and just plain sucks at it. Do you trust them taking everything down and starting over? I just don't...

So we never should rebuild because past drafts didn't go so well? I mean...really? That's not a logical argument. That's like saying I'll never get in a car again after the last time I got in one there was an accident.

[Dejay]

Just now, Sothron said:

So we never should rebuild because past drafts didn't go so well? I mean...really? That's not a logical argument. That's like saying I'll never get in a car again after the last time I got in one there was an accident.

I agree, it isn't logical. But this franchise don't think logically in June when the draft rolls around. It's like a person walking into a bank asking for a loan with a 506 FICO score. They are going to likely get rejected and told to come back months later after proving their credit worthiness. That's where they are with me in regards to building through the draft...

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Broski, I can go back to the 50's to prove the point. You can see so many teams that tanked, got a superstar in the draft and were able to build around them to win titles. I didn't mention Heat with Wade, Dallas with Dirk, Lakers with Kobe, etc. There's also the teams that almost won a title by doing the same thing. Seattle, OKC, Knicks, Magic, etc.

You need superstars to win championships. There's no getting around it. The only way this franchise is getting one is in the draft. We don't have brain dead GMs trading away lottery picks like the old days. That means we need to embrace the tank, build around our youth and not sign players to keep on the treadmill.

There's a difference between (1) going for it but ultimately failing and deciding to "tank" at the end of the season and (2) deciding as an organization that winning doesn't matter and tailoring your entire process to that end.

What you're identifying is version (1) which I'm sure hundreds of teams have done and ended up in position to draft a guy that ultimately became a superstar.

The problem is you're advocating we do version (2) which has not proven to be a successful mode of operation.

MIA didn't tank (version 2) to get Wade, nor did DAL tank (version 2) to get Dirk.  Heyul, neither of them tanked at all.  It sounds like all you're doing is identifying a guy then 'claiming' the team tanked to end up with him.  That's not accurate.

PHI tanked specifically to get Simmons but they also specifically tanked to get Wiggins but, for some reason, you're probably giving them credit as if they tanked to get Embiid.  Why are they not on your list?  That's the team you're asking us to emulate.

[macdaddy]

Whether you like Ferry or not we were following a good path to success by hiring an architect with an actual plan and hiring a coach who could maximize the potential.   Gearon Jr. threw a grenade on that whole plan for petty, vindictive and selfish reasons.   We've been recovering from that ever since.   I think Ressler sees this.  Hell i think Bud and Wilcox see this.   It can be fixed with the right GM and a whole lot of money.   

[Dejay]

9 minutes ago, Sothron said:

So we never should rebuild because past drafts didn't go so well? I mean...really? That's not a logical argument. That's like saying I'll never get in a car again after the last time I got in one there was an accident.

And speaking of the car accident analogy, the Hawks' draft history isn't just one accident; it's an annual multi-car pileup that flips your car four or five times on the interstate. Call me a coward but I'm taking the bus the next go-around...

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, Dejay said:

And speaking of the car accident analogy, the Hawks' draft history isn't just one accident; it's an annual multi-car pileup that flips your car four or five times on the interstate. Call me a coward but I'm taking the bus the next go-around...

Come on man.   That's a low blow.

[DBac]

The teams at the top are built on lottery picks and smart FA signings.

 

Lets overpay replacement level players and draft in the late first every year  

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Whether you like Ferry or not we were following a good path to success by hiring an architect with an actual plan and hiring a coach who could maximize the potential.   Gearon Jr. threw a grenade on that whole plan for petty, vindictive and selfish reasons.   We've been recovering from that ever since.   I think Ressler sees this.  Hell i think Bud and Wilcox see this.   It can be fixed with the right GM and a whole lot of money.   

Ferry was like the mortgage industry prior to '08.  Poor a** drafting gave the appearance we had direction and a sustainable strategy.  The reality is it was due to blow up in the near future.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, DBac said:

The teams at the top are built on lottery picks and smart FA signings.

Lets overpay replacement level players and draft in the late first every year  

 

That's not entirely true.  I'd say 'smart' picks and smart FA signings.  Granted, 'smart' lotto picks would be better but at what cost.

I also agree with a need to stop begging (i.e. overpaying) replacement guys.  It's why I hope we move on from Sap a year early rather than re-upping and ending up regretting it in a year or 2.

[macdaddy]

12 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Ferry was like the mortgage industry prior to '08.  Poor a** drafting gave the appearance we had direction and a sustainable strategy.  The reality is it was due to blow up in the near future.

I'm not saying we would have continued to be a 1/2 seed but I think we wouldn't have seen the aimlessness of the last year and a half.    I honestly think he would have traded Horford and gotten some good assets in return because he would have figured out that he didn't want to pay him a max contract and Horford wasn't taking a discount.    I think Bud was blind to that situation.   

Anyway, I'm just saying that it's better to have a decisive plan than just to be taking stabs in the dark.   

[hawkman]

16 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Ferry was like the mortgage industry prior to '08.  Poor a** drafting gave the appearance we had direction and a sustainable strategy.  The reality is it was due to blow up in the near future.

...and Ferry wasn't around when it all fell to pieces so he was never seen for what he really was. He, like those predatory lenders, was never held accountable.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm not saying we would have continued to be a 1/2 seed but I think we wouldn't have seen the aimlessness of the last year and a half.    I honestly think he would have traded Horford and gotten some good assets in return because he would have figured out that he didn't want to pay him a max contract and Horford wasn't taking a discount.    I think Bud was blind to that situation.   

Anyway, I'm just saying that it's better to have a decisive plan than just to be taking stabs in the dark.   

We have no evidence of that.  I do agree though that Budz was 'too close to the situation'.

I also agree having a plan is better than not.  However, I think what we suffered from was not having a real gm.  We had one but he never had the power to have a plan.  So, it's probably more like we had a plan but no GM.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, hawkman said:

...and Ferry wasn't around when it all fell to pieces so he was never seen for what he really was. He, like those predatory lenders, was never held accountable.

Just like Hinkie is seen as some great GM although whatever his "plan" was, will never be known.  Folks simply laud him for asset accumulation and totally ignore the lack of roster building or 'winning'.

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

Yes, Cleveland never tanked to get Lebron and then won a title...oh wait.

Yes, SA never tanked to get Duncan and then won multiple titles...oh wait.

Yes, GSW never tanked to get Curry and Klay and Green  and then won a title...oh wait.

Yes, Bulls never tanked to get some scrub named Michael Jordan and then won six titles...oh wait.

Yes, Pistons never tanked to get Thomas and then won two titles, kinda got cheated out of a third...oh wait.

I can keep going. That comment is simply wrong on a factual basis. Multiple teams over the course of NBA history have tanked, gotten a superstar in the draft and then went on to win a title. Discounting the draft to find a superstar is simply insane. The only way THIS franchise is going to get a superstar is through the draft.

 

 

Cleveland resigned Lebron after they built the team while he was in Miami and then won a title

David Robinson was out for the season which led to San Antonio having the worse record then Drafting Duncan

The Bulls didn't win a title until Jordan's 7th year putting whole in your 3 year model

Draymond Green was a second round pick.

Atlanta tanked and ended up with Marvin and Sheldon Williams so what's your freaking point???

[Sothron]

56 minutes ago, kg01 said:

There's a difference between (1) going for it but ultimately failing and deciding to "tank" at the end of the season and (2) deciding as an organization that winning doesn't matter and tailoring your entire process to that end.

What you're identifying is version (1) which I'm sure hundreds of teams have done and ended up in position to draft a guy that ultimately became a superstar.

The problem is you're advocating we do version (2) which has not proven to be a successful mode of operation.

MIA didn't tank (version 2) to get Wade, nor did DAL tank (version 2) to get Dirk.  Heyul, neither of them tanked at all.  It sounds like all you're doing is identifying a guy then 'claiming' the team tanked to end up with him.  That's not accurate.

PHI tanked specifically to get Simmons but they also specifically tanked to get Wiggins but, for some reason, you're probably giving them credit as if they tanked to get Embiid.  Why are they not on your list?  That's the team you're asking us to emulate.

The Spurs tanked to get Duncan. Cleveland tanked to get Lebron. The older teams in the 80's gutted teams trying to rebuild in the draft and that's how teams like the Bulls got Jordan or the Pistons got Thomas. Again, I can keep pulling examples of how that worked out. Seattle/OKC tanked and got Durant, Westbrook and Harden. There's a ton of examples of teams tanking and it paying off.

You keep using Philly as an example but that's one team that it hasn't worked out for (at least yet). There's no getting around the fact this team is only getting a superstar in the draft. How are going to get a lottery pick to get the best chance to get that guy? Tanking. I'm not proposing we tank just for the hell of it. It offers the most probably route to land a superstar. That is the gold standard that franchises that can't attract superstars as free agent or trade targets has to go by.

[Sothron]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Cleveland resigned Lebron after they built the team while he was in Miami and then won a title

David Robinson was out for the season which led to San Antonio having the worse record then Drafting Duncan

The Bulls didn't win a title until Jordan's 7th year putting whole in your 3 year model

Draymond Green was a second round pick.

Atlanta tanked and ended up with Marvin and Sheldon Williams so what's your freaking point???

Cleveland drafted Lebron, went to Finals with Lebron and 4 Other Stiffs. The only reason Lebron went back was to fulfill his promise to win a title there, which he did. 

Robinson was healthy enough to come back that season. Go back and look at the Spurs moves that season. They wouldn't even fill out a complete roster and intentionally let a very old Nique eat up as much shots as minutes as he wanted. They were blatantly tanking to get Duncan.

The 3 year model is not a hard rule. I never said anything like that. I said Lebron has 3 years left as an elite player then after that the doors should be open for other teams to compete in the East. THAT is the 3 year window I was talking about. I never said within 3 years any team with a superstar they drafted would be winning titles.

Draymond was still drafted by a team tanking. GSW was tanking when they got Curry and Klay. No way to talk around that.

Atlanta had an idiot GM that passed on Chris Paul and Deron Williams, Brandon Roy, LMA and I can't remember who all else. That is the GM's fault not the process.

[Peoriabird]

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

Broski, I can go back to the 50's to prove the point. You can see so many teams that tanked, got a superstar in the draft and were able to build around them to win titles. I didn't mention Heat with Wade, Dallas with Dirk, Lakers with Kobe, etc. There's also the teams that almost won a title by doing the same thing. Seattle, OKC, Knicks, Magic, etc.

You need superstars to win championships. There's no getting around it. The only way this franchise is getting one is in the draft. We don't have brain dead GMs trading away lottery picks like the old days. That means we need to embrace the tank, build around our youth and not sign players to keep on the treadmill.

Either you don't know your history or this is practice just in case Sean Spicer gets fired

Dirk was a project and a product of a trade

Kobe was a trade involving Divac...The lakers were in the playoff the year before

No one is arguing that having better players improve your chances of winning but tanking doesn't guarantee it.  The Hawks were bad for a long time before this run and ended up with the Williams brothers, Josh Childress, and Acie Law along with Horford so where is the fing superstar after 5 tries at it?????

Edited May 10, 2017 by Peoriabird

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Atlanta had an idiot GM that passed on Chris Paul and Deron Williams, Brandon Roy, LMA and I can't remember who all else. That is the GM's fault not the process.

So how many title did Paul, Brandon Roy and Williams win or contend for??

[Guard]

44 minutes ago, DBac said:

The teams at the top are built on lottery picks and smart FA signings.

 

Lets overpay replacement level players and draft in the late first every year  

 

 

 

 

I really don't understand it. This team has had changes with it's roster, front office, and team building philosophy but the results continue to remain the same.  It's illogical to continue on  the same path while expecting different results.

The team will always run into some elite team with more talent in the playoffs and the Hawks won't overcome them. Once James is done, it'll be some other team.