Draft chatter with Travis Schlenk

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Baze is a toxic asset.  If we can get value back, I think Baze is gone but if we have to attach first round picks to move him then you won't see it happen.  Whether Baze gets moved will depend on how much value we have to give to get someone to take him in a trade.

What's the urgency in moving Baze anyway, We are not going to contend over the next 3-4 years which is the length of his contract anyway.  May as well see whether he improve and then decide.

[KB21]

18 minutes ago, Sothron said:

We are not going to get anywhere in the playoffs for the next several years.  Why not get a start on rebuilding 

There is a multitude of reasons to not do it.  The #1 is that you do not want to establish a losing culture with the organization.  That's the worst thing that can happen.

There is a difference in a full on rebuild/tank job and a quasi-rebuild where you identify undervalued assets that can help you remain competitive. 

[AHF]

36 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

What's the urgency in moving Baze anyway, We are not going to contend over the next 3-4 years which is the length of his contract anyway.  May as well see whether he improve and then decide.

He has never been close to that value.  If you can unload him do it immediately while the window is open.  If you have to take back horrendous contracts or give up picks then I'm fine with your approach.

[Peoriabird]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

He has never been close to that value.  If you can unload him do it immediately while the window is open.  If you have to take back horrendous contracts or give up picks then I'm fine with your approach.

The question is why...What would be the benefit of unloading him now at all cost versus 2 years from now?

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

The question is why...What would be the benefit of unloading him now at all cost versus 2 years from now?

Because the longer he proves unworthy, the less likely you can say "young 3&D" and fool someone into taking him.  Basically, if that window opens you better be ready to move because it may never come again.

[Peoriabird]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

Because the longer he proves unworthy, the less likely you can say "young 3&D" and fool someone into taking him.  Basically, if that window opens you better be ready to move because it may never come again.

He doesn't have a life time contract plus there is the possibility that he could improve.  I know that you don't believe that based on your predictions about THjr but it does happen.

[TheFuzz]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

He doesn't have a life time contract plus there is the possibility that he could improve.  I know that you don't believe that based on your predictions about THjr but it does happen.

Bazemore doesn't have the same physical tools as Hardaway in terms of coordination and strength. Bazemore's a more rangy defender but I really think Baze is who he is as an offensive player at this point. We could certainly put him in a better position to succeed, however!

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

He doesn't have a life time contract plus there is the possibility that he could improve.  I know that you don't believe that based on your predictions about THjr but it does happen.

I have never predicted that THJr couldn't improve and acknowledge Baze could have improvement ahead of him.  The problem is that he needs to improve a ton in order to justify the deal.  So it comes down to how much improvement you believe lies in his future.  I didn't want us to sign him to that contract originally because I didn't think he had that much improvement ahead of him.  Why would a year of crappy regression convince me to change that view and want to keep him if we could unload him now at no cost?

[Sothron]

2 hours ago, KB21 said:

There is a multitude of reasons to not do it.  The #1 is that you do not want to establish a losing culture with the organization.  That's the worst thing that can happen.

There is a difference in a full on rebuild/tank job and a quasi-rebuild where you identify undervalued assets that can help you remain competitive. 

We already have a losing culture. How many titles has this team won? How many Finals has this team been to? How many conference finals?

I'll help you out. Zero, zero and 1 several years ago that the current team has no chance of repeating.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Keeping Dennis and Prince and going for a full youth rebuild is the only sane decision. No one in the East is beating Cleveland for at least the next 3 seasons. Might as well get the rebuild started now instead of later.

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, Sothron said:

We already have a losing culture. How many titles has this team won? How many Finals has this team been to? How many conference finals?

I'll help you out. Zero, zero and 1 several years ago that the current team has no chance of repeating.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Keeping Dennis and Prince and going for a full youth rebuild is the only sane decision. No one in the East is beating Cleveland for at least the next 3 seasons. Might as well get the rebuild started now instead of later.

Haven't we already done that too?   Did it lead to a championship?   Isn't it just as insane to try it again?

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Haven't we already done that too?   Did it lead to a championship?   Isn't it just as insane to try it again?

Makes sense to look at what championship teams did and work from there.  

[Guest]

I tire of the 'wait til Lebron's old' talk.  Guess what, by the time he's old, there'll be another great team in the way.  The 'oh, GState's gonna win the neggst 8 titles so we might as well build for 2024' nonsense is coward speak.

If there's a bully on the block standing in your way.  Man the F up, get better and fight.

[Sothron]

24 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Haven't we already done that too?   Did it lead to a championship?   Isn't it just as insane to try it again?

Rebuilding is part of sports. So you suggest we never rebuild? Do you realize how silly that sounds?

[Sothron]

23 minutes ago, AHF said:

Makes sense to look at what championship teams did and work from there.  

Good point. We aren't signing a superstar as a free agent or trading for one which leaves only one way to get one.

[KB21]

28 minutes ago, Sothron said:

We already have a losing culture. How many titles has this team won? How many Finals has this team been to? How many conference finals?

I'll help you out. Zero, zero and 1 several years ago that the current team has no chance of repeating.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Keeping Dennis and Prince and going for a full youth rebuild is the only sane decision. No one in the East is beating Cleveland for at least the next 3 seasons. Might as well get the rebuild started now instead of later.

This organization does not have a losing culture, and you have lost perspective on what a losing culture actually is.  The 2000-2007 Hawks had a losing culture, and it took years to overcome that rebuilding decision and decision to go with youth in 1999. 

This Hawks team hasn't had a losing season in 10 years.  That's not a losing culture.  That's a winning culture, and we stand a much better chance of being ready to compete for a championship when LeBron finally declines if we maintain that winning culture as opposed to deciding to lose with young players.  Again, it will be at least 6-7 years of losing before this team is back to where they are at now if we go your route. 

[Sothron]

7 minutes ago, KB21 said:

This organization does not have a losing culture, and you have lost perspective on what a losing culture actually is.  The 2000-2007 Hawks had a losing culture, and it took years to overcome that rebuilding decision and decision to go with youth in 1999. 

This Hawks team hasn't had a losing season in 10 years.  That's not a losing culture.  That's a winning culture, and we stand a much better chance of being ready to compete for a championship when LeBron finally declines if we maintain that winning culture as opposed to deciding to lose with young players.  Again, it will be at least 6-7 years of losing before this team is back to where they are at now if we go your route. 

You don't know that it will take 6-7 years to be an actual championship contender. We already have two pieces in place, if we got the right guys in the draft it could be far shorter than that. And to be fair it could take longer than that time frame as well if the pieces don't mesh.

I don't consider meaningless first or second round playoff appearances as winning. If your team is not a valid championship contender then you are either outright rebuilding or you are stuck in the middle which is the worst spot to be. I'm tired of this franchise being stuck. The only way to get out is to restart.

I only consider seriously competing for a title as the only focus a franchise should have. If you as a fan are happy with meaningless first round playoff losses year after year then that's fine. We just have significantly different standards of what we as fans should expect from our teams.

[Sothron]

11 minutes ago, KB21 said:

This organization does not have a losing culture, and you have lost perspective on what a losing culture actually is.  The 2000-2007 Hawks had a losing culture, and it took years to overcome that rebuilding decision and decision to go with youth in 1999. 

This Hawks team hasn't had a losing season in 10 years.  That's not a losing culture.  That's a winning culture, and we stand a much better chance of being ready to compete for a championship when LeBron finally declines if we maintain that winning culture as opposed to deciding to lose with young players.  Again, it will be at least 6-7 years of losing before this team is back to where they are at now if we go your route. 

I'll post the same question to you: do you suggest we never rebuild? Ever? Do you realize how silly and unrealistic that sounds?

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I tire of the 'wait til Lebron's old' talk.  Guess what, by the time he's old, there'll be another great team in the way.  The 'oh, GState's gonna win the neggst 8 titles so we might as well build for 2024' nonsense is coward speak.

If there's a bully on the block standing in your way.  Man the F up, get better and fight.

AAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! I don't know if I completely agree with you but I got an edge right this second...I'm gonna slap my boss..

[Peoriabird]

I'm confused...What is the definition of rebuild?  Is it acquiring young talent from the draft and free agency? Don't we have 10 1st round draft pick over the next 3 years?  So how are we not rebuilding?

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Why would a year of crappy regression convince me to change that view and want to keep him if we could unload him now at no cost?

You didn't propose selling him at no cost...Your proposal was to sell him at any cost including accepting a bad contract in return