If Philly made the same offer for Dennis, would you take it?

[Flight]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

His shot still needs real work but with his size and athleticism he smoked Lonzo in the NCAA tournament.

I think just about every players shot needs work coming into the league anyways lol I trust his work ethic more than most. It'll be interesting to see what team lands him. 

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, sturt said:

It's a worthy debate, in general... but wait...

You think we're going to be able to get Dennis' production cheaper?

Really?!?

Virtually any contending team has to have guys in the middle of the payroll sheet who are giving more value than they're getting paid, simply because it's so unlikely you're going to get that at the top (yes, you get good-to-very good production, but you pay for it) or at the bottom (yes, you pay little, but the chances that you get good-to-very-good production are a crap shoot).

Do you know why GS got so many valuable guys.  Being able to sign guys while other guys were on cheap contracts.  Dennis is about to be a 70 Million guy.  IF we can get a guy on a Rookie contract... the savings can allow us to get other players the same way that GS got KD.

[Thomas]

Still remembering who showed up the most for us in the playoffs this year. Hard to part with that since we know the time it took for him to get to that level. Its not like he is overpaid or he is the contract that is cramping our cap.

[Guest]

As a semi-related aside, anybody find it hilarious how all these teams are trying to get as far away from the #1 pick as possible?

I mean, this isn't the NFL where multiple picks throughout middle rounds kinda benefits you.  In the NBA, that 1 guy can make a marked difference to every aspect of your organization.

The BOS guys have said all year that Fultz was a 10-year guy, a can't-miss prospect and now they're like, "Bwah, we good."  Nobody's fooled by his unimpactful number(s), I guess.

[DennistheMenace17]

HEEEEELLLLL no... then I would have to change my username 

[ATLSmith]

That's a tough call but I would keep Dennis. We already know he can start at an NBA level and what he needs to improve.

 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, ATLSmith said:

That's a tough call but I would keep Dennis. We already know he can start at an NBA level and what he needs to improve.

 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

But the beans is magic tho, ATLSmiff.  Magic beans.

Seriously.  The NBA draft is crazy.  Before being picked, these guys have so much value it's ridiculous.  Folks want us to wait 4-5 years for these all-world guards to get to .... well, where Dennis is right now?  How's that make sense?

And lol at @Dolfan23 comparing, what, 8-years-in John Wall to these prospective draftees.  I agree with you that Wall pretty much dwarfed Dennis this past postseason.  However, how long did it take Wall to get to that level?

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Do you know why GS got so many valuable guys.  Being able to sign guys while other guys were on cheap contracts.  Dennis is about to be a 70 Million guy.  IF we can get a guy on a Rookie contract... the savings can allow us to get other players the same way that GS got KD.

@Diesel, I disagree with this.  Curry was on a 'value' contract because of his bum ankles - other wise he'd have gotten a max deal.  Both Klay and Draymond are on max deals (which is based on the salary cap at that time).  The JUMP in the cap by $20 MILLION (where pretty much EVERY TEAM had capspace) is what allowed GSW to sign Durant - so what you say just isn't true.

Please understand in this cap era - Dennis is on a value contract ($15 mil) when you consider that his max is $25.5 million.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Do you know why GS got so many valuable guys.  Being able to sign guys while other guys were on cheap contracts.  Dennis is about to be a 70 Million guy.  IF we can get a guy on a Rookie contract... the savings can allow us to get other players the same way that GS got KD.

This is just wrong.

GS has so many "valuable" guys because of a confluence of fortuitous circumstances including, as @JayBirdHawk pointed out, Curry's ankle issues and the historic cap increase that's not going to be repeated.

Another factor is the fact that they haven't totally punted on the draft in multiple years the way we did for a while.  Thus, they're paying their own guys rather than over-paying to get someone else's guys.

[Admin]

41 minutes ago, kg01 said:

But the beans is magic tho, ATLSmiff.  Magic beans.

Seriously.  The NBA draft is crazy.  Before being picked, these guys have so much value it's ridiculous.  Folks want us to wait 4-5 years for these all-world guards to get to .... well, where Dennis is right now?  How's that make sense?

And lol at @Dolfan23 comparing, what, 8-years-in John Wall to these prospective draftees.  I agree with you that Wall pretty much dwarfed Dennis this past postseason.  However, how long did it take Wall to get to that level?

Seriously? Dennis in his career BEST season had 1.5 less apg than Wall in his WORST season. They're not even in the same stratosphere in terms of making their teammates better. Fyi Wall came into the league averaging over 8 apg and averages over 9 for his career. 

[Guest]

Just now, Dolfan23 said:

Seriously? Dennis in his career BEST season had 1.5 less apg than Wall in his WORST season. They're not even in the same stratosphere in terms of making their teammates better. Fyi Wall came into the league averaging over 8 apg and averages over 9 for his career. 

I'm saying he's closer to being a finished product capable of leading a team somewhere than these draftees are.

I am, in no way, claiming Dennis is in Wall's category as a player overall.

Furthermore, I'm saying none of these draftees are anywhere near the prospect Wall was so trading Dennis for one of them isn't a great idea.

[marco102]

17 minutes ago, Dolfan23 said:

Seriously? Dennis in his career BEST season had 1.5 less apg than Wall in his WORST season. They're not even in the same stratosphere in terms of making their teammates better. Fyi Wall came into the league averaging over 8 apg and averages over 9 for his career. 

Drop that turnovers per game stat or assist to turnover stat too.  Also, drop those shooting percentages.  Don't just cherry pick his best stats. 

[Admin]

11 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'm saying he's closer to being a finished product capable of leading a team somewhere than these draftees are.

I am, in no way, claiming Dennis is in Wall's category as a player overall.

Furthermore, I'm saying none of these draftees are anywhere near the prospect Wall was so trading Dennis for one of them isn't a great idea.

None of these draft picks will cost anywhere near what Dennis will soon cost. Wbtaren't winning anything if substance in the next 3-4 years so why not trade Dennis and let Sap go and build around a young PG who'd be under our control for years at a very affordable cost? Hell by then Dennis will probably be making 30 million and still won't defend at an elite level or create scoring opportunities for his teammates at even an average level for a PG.

It's never gonna happen though as Dennis doesn't have enough value to get us a Fultz or Ball. 

[Admin]

Just now, marco102 said:

Drop that turnovers per game stat or assist to turnover stat too.  Also, drop those shooting percentages.  Don't just cherry pick his best stats. 

Who's cherry picking? My point isn't even about Wall it's about Dennis. Someone else brought Wall up and I needed to remind folks just how much better he makes his teammates vs Dennis' ability to do so. You think Dennis is making Jason Smith or Gortat (at this point) look like legit NBA bigs? 

I'm talking about Dennis' ability as a real PG to get his teammates the ball in position to score. If you honestly think Dennis is even average at that then I suggest you spend more time watching the top PGs who don't just drive past their man in attempt to only get a shot  for themselves. 

[Flight]

 

12 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'm saying he's closer to being a finished product capable of leading a team somewhere than these draftees are.

I am, in no way, claiming Dennis is in Wall's category as a player overall.

Furthermore, I'm saying none of these draftees are anywhere near the prospect Wall was so trading Dennis for one of them isn't a great idea.

 

Not that I'm really pushing for us to get him but I have to bring up DeAaron Fox again. He and John Wall had VERY similar years at UK. 

PPG - 16.6 vs 16.7

RPG - 4.3 vs 3.9

APG - 6.5 vs 4.6

FG% - 46.1 vs 47.8

FT% - 75.4 vs 73.9

PER - 22.3 vs 22.6

WS - 6.3 vs 5.1

(If you want to see more for yourself, I added links)

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/john-wall-1.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/deaaron-fox-1.html

 

Wall may have been a bit further along as a distributor coming out of UK but these two are about as close of a prospect comparison as I've seen in this draft. 

 

 

[marco102]

7 minutes ago, Dolfan23 said:

Who's cherry picking? My point isn't even about Wall it's about Dennis. Someone else brought Wall up and I needed to remind folks just how much better he makes his teammates vs Dennis' ability to do so. You think Dennis is making Jason Smith or Gortat (at this point) look like legit NBA bigs? 

I'm talking about Dennis' ability as a real PG to get his teammates the ball in position to score. If you honestly think Dennis is even average at that then I suggest you spend more time watching the top PGs who don't just drive past their man in attempt to only get a shot  for themselves. 

No what you are doing is saying the one thing we all know Wall is probably the best at ,getting assists, and comparing a 23 year old Dennis to him.  Wall was not that great his first couple of seasons was my point.  Yeah he had all those assists, but he was a turnover machine.  Point guards have to run a team.  Dennis  drove to the basket to score because what were the other options, besides Paul and Timmy (when he was hot)?  He's young and learning is my point.  If you surround Dennis with good shooters at every position, I guarantee, he will set them up better.  He's never played with a center like Dwight before and he struggled with the entry pass to the paint.  

I'm not saying Dennis is a top guard in the league, but he has potential to be a top 10 pt guard once he puts it all together.  I'm not willing to give that up for some draft pick who could turn out to be the next Kwame Brown. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by marco102

[Thomas]

When it counted most Dennis almost averaged eight assists a game with a 4.5 assist/turnover rate. In the playoffs and that is including a poor assist game by him, he is growing. Honestly comparing any point in the East to Wall and his assists and overall game after this year or his last few doesn't work well for anybody. Hate him but Wall was great. For us, Dennis is an improved product and expect more of that moving forward. Stats can actually help sometimes, Dennis's playoff numbers below.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3032979/dennis-Schröder

[Admin]

Forget Wall. What did Dennis do better than an average starter other than score? Defend? Run the floor and find the open man instead of looking for his own points? Drive and dish? Find Dwight early in the shot clock? Nope to all of the above. 

Some of you are so blinded by what he does well and the fact that he's a Hawks draft pick that you think he's among the better PGs. Sure he can score as well as all but about 3-4 of the top guys but that's all that he does well. Very soon he's going to get paid ridiculously because of the fact that he can drive and score so well but that's not enough to build a team around. 

I'm not even pro-tank and I even like Dennis a lot but I'm very aware that we won't be ready to make a real run at something without a lot more talent and we'll never get that talent if we are busy overpaying players on their 2nd contracts.

Maybe none of the top guards in this draft are as good as Schröder is now and maybe they're never going to be as good but what if they are? And what if they are good as rookies on a cheap contract and now we have 2-4 first and second year starting caliber players being paid peanuts and leaving us the cap room to go out and get a couple of max players*.

That is the kind of future that excites me. Last year we dealt Teague because we knew he'd cost a lot in FA if we kept him and we got a building block for the future who as a rookie was one of our best players in the playoffs.mI'm not saying lightning will strike twice but I'm confident that our front office knows how to draft based on what I saw last year. 

I don't even care if we miss the playoffs the next couple of seasons as long as we are young, drafting good players and spending our FA money smartly. 

*Assuming we can dump Dwight and/or Baze along with future picks while getting back salary dump expiring contracts. Plus not re-signing Sap or ThJr. 

[benhillboy]

I think Dennis was a Vince Carter jump-clean-over-a-big-foreign-stiff slam dunk at pick 18.  Nothing more or less.

As @Lurker stated, his advanced analytics make my stomach hurt.  .071 WS per 48 for a starter basically means his great  scoring is usually inconsequential.  His off-ball play, on-ball defense, and passing acumen don't move the needle any.

[marco102]

2 hours ago, Dolfan23 said:

Forget Wall. What did Dennis do better than an average starter other than score? Defend? Run the floor and find the open man instead of looking for his own points? Drive and dish? Find Dwight early in the shot clock? Nope to all of the above. 

Some of you are so blinded by what he does well and the fact that he's a Hawks draft pick that you think he's among the better PGs. Sure he can score as well as all but about 3-4 of the top guys but that's all that he does well. Very soon he's going to get paid ridiculously because of the fact that he can drive and score so well but that's not enough to build a team around. 

I'm not even pro-tank and I even like Dennis a lot but I'm very aware that we won't be ready to make a real run at something without a lot more talent and we'll never get that talent if we are busy overpaying players on their 2nd contracts.

Maybe none of the top guards in this draft are as good as Schröder is now and maybe they're never going to be as good but what if they are? And what if they are good as rookies on a cheap contract and now we have 2-4 first and second year starting caliber players being paid peanuts and leaving us the cap room to go out and get a couple of max players*.

That is the kind of future that excites me. Last year we dealt Teague because we knew he'd cost a lot in FA if we kept him and we got a building block for the future who as a rookie was one of our best players in the playoffs.mI'm not saying lightning will strike twice but I'm confident that our front office knows how to draft based on what I saw last year. 

I don't even care if we miss the playoffs the next couple of seasons as long as we are young, drafting good players and spending our FA money smartly. 

*Assuming we can dump Dwight and/or Baze along with future picks while getting back salary dump expiring contracts. Plus not re-signing Sap or ThJr. 

I think all of us who are supporting Dennis are saying he is ONLY 23!  So why can't he continue to improve like the supposed  draft picks you guys are clamoring for.  Dennis' contract at the moment is a steal.  He's making $10 million per year less than the max and hopefully he continues to improve.  

I'm going to defend him not matter what you say.  Point blank simple.  Last year, on Hawk's terrible offensive team, he was the second best player as a first year starter.  Could he be better at a lot of things? Hell Yeah!  If he's playing at his current level at 25 or 26 then we can have the discussion about trading him for draft picks.

If the Warriors would have traded Steph Curry after three years, they wouldn't be the Warriors.  No one can argue with that!

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by marco102