If Philly made the same offer for Dennis, would you take it?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, benhillboy said:

I think Dennis was a Vince Carter jump-clean-over-a-big-foreign-stiff slam dunk at pick 18.  Nothing more or less.

As @Lurker stated, his advanced analytics make my stomach hurt.  .071 WS per 48 for a starter basically means his great  scoring is usually inconsequential.  His off-ball play, on-ball defense, and passing acumen don't move the needle any.

Ask Lurker if someone had a .181 WS/48 . . Would that be considered "consequential"?

BTW . . . Dennis in the playoffs . . . ( .226 WS/48 )

 

[Lurker]

I'm talking about different analytics other than what is seen on bref, which I pretty much barely use for reference.

[ATLien_]

I want to attack this from a different angle, will Dennis ever be good enough to attract a star player in free agency? If the  answer is no make the deal. We can debate Dennis' impact all day, but his biggest impact has to be attracting another star otherwise  what's  the  point  of staying flexible as Schlenk says. We can be competitive and have cap space, but it's all vanity if we can't attract another star.

Dennis  doesn't strike me as a guy that's well liked  by his peers,  and for better or worse he'll likely be perceived as our best player once Millsap leaves.

[DBac]

Nah but it's extremely close. I don't like the protection on that Lakers pick. 

 

As much as I love Dennis Smith (sucker for power dunking PGs), it would be extremely risky to trade Dennis for him and then risk the pick not conveying until 2019. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by DBac

[Admin]

1 hour ago, marco102 said:

I think all of us who are supporting Dennis are saying he is ONLY 23!  So why can't he continue to improve like the supposed  draft picks you guys are clamoring for.  Dennis' contract at the moment is a steal.  He's making $10 million per year less than the max and hopefully he continues to improve.  

I'm going to defend him not matter what you say.  Point blank simple.  Last year, on Hawk's terrible offensive team, he was the second best player as a first year starter.  Could he be better at a lot of things? Hell Yeah!  If he's playing at his current level at 25 or 26 then we can have the discussion about trading him for draft picks.

If the Warriors would have traded Steph Curry after three years, they wouldn't be the Warriors.  No one can argue with that!

 

4 years in and I would argue he's worse defensively and as a passer now.

So when will he START to improve in any of those areas? 

At what point do you realize that just like Teague was, Dennis is who he is. 

[Thomas]

4 hours ago, Dolfan23 said:

So when will he START to improve in any of those areas? 

In the playoffs against the Wiz a few weeks ago. 

[Admin]

5 hours ago, Thomas said:

In the playoffs against the Wiz a few weeks ago. 

Seriously? Like when he was so bad at home that a 132 year old emaciated chimp had to come in at PG and erase the ldouble digit deficit Dennis lead us to. What improvements are you referring to exactly? 

The only areas that Dennis has improved on since his rookie year are 3pt shooting and finishing at the basket. He has no in between game, and his passing and defense are worse. 

[Thomas]

The math is right here backing up what most everyone else saw the six games I watched, not just one game.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3032979/dennis-Schröder

[Admin]

25 minutes ago, Thomas said:

The math is right here backing up what most everyone else saw the six games I watched, not just one.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3032979/dennis-Schröder

What math? In what areas has Schröder actually gotten better since coming into the league? 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Dolfan23 said:

What math? In what areas has Schröder actually gotten better since coming into the league? 

3 point shooting...(just off the top of my head)...shooting overall actually he used to stink from outside.

 

Thats all I got lol

[Admin]

9 minutes ago, Spud2Nique said:

3 point shooting...(just off the top of my head)...shooting overall actually he used to stink from outside.

 

Thats all I got lol

Yep I mentioned that earlier as a big improvement... As well as finishing at the basket. But other than that he's either stagnated or regressed almost everywhere else. 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Dolfan23 said:

Yep I mentioned that earlier as a big improvement... As well as finishing at the basket. But other than that he's either stagnated or regressed almost everywhere else. 

Those are pretty big improvements.   So he's only improved his scoring and shooting?  I'd say he's improved his turnovers and I'm not seeing where  his passing has regressed in anyway.   I think if we had some guys who could actually shoot his assist numbers would reflect that.

As much as I hate to say it though I think your larger point is true.   I think Dennis is who he is.  Which is a really good PG but he's never going to be John Wall.   That's fantasy.   I like Dennis a lot and want him to remain a hawk but i also see him as our most valuable trade piece.   If he can be packaged for a real star i don't see why we wouldn't do it.   

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Those are pretty big improvements.   So he's only improved his scoring and shooting?  I'd say he's improved his turnovers and I'm not seeing where  his passing has regressed in anyway.   I think if we had some guys who could actually shoot his assist numbers would reflect that.

As much as I hate to say it though I think your larger point is true.   I think Dennis is who he is.  Which is a really good PG but he's never going to be John Wall.   That's fantasy.   I like Dennis a lot and want him to remain a hawk but i also see him as our most valuable trade piece.   If he can be packaged for a real star i don't see why we wouldn't do it.   

I think  most would agree that trading Dennis for a REAL star is best but the topic heading does not reflect that discussion.  Saying with any certainty that anyone in this draft class is that, that's the real fantasy.

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I think  most would agree that trading Dennis for a REAL star is best but the topic heading does not reflect that discussion.  Saying with any certainty that anyone in this draft class is that, that's the real fantasy.

Agreed.  I was tangenting.  I meant in a trade for an established star not a draft pick.   

[Thomas]

4 hours ago, Dolfan23 said:

What math? In what areas has Schröder actually gotten better since coming into the league? 

In the past three years where he has gotten minutes in the playoffs he has improved every year. Resulting in this year with a 4.5 assist/turnover rate which has been one of his biggest detractors in his career. Once again, the math is below. The improvement from those numbers to when he came in the league is what we saw on the floor in the playoffs this year and is on the stat sheet as well.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3032979/seasontype/3/dennis-Schröder

[Diesel]

21 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

@Diesel, I disagree with this.  Curry was on a 'value' contract because of his bum ankles - other wise he'd have gotten a max deal.  Both Klay and Draymond are on max deals (which is based on the salary cap at that time).  The JUMP in the cap by $20 MILLION (where pretty much EVERY TEAM had capspace) is what allowed GSW to sign Durant - so what you say just isn't true.

Please understand in this cap era - Dennis is on a value contract ($15 mil) when you consider that his max is $25.5 million.

You listed the circumstances as why their contracts were cheap... It doesn't change the fact that they had cheap contracts in this CBA that allowed for them to sign another max player.

I mentioned the saving of what Dennis will make to that of a rookie contract as a savings... that's still a fact too.  But I mentioned it as a perk.. not the only reason. 

[Admin]

6 hours ago, Thomas said:

In the past three years where he has gotten minutes in the playoffs he has improved every year. Resulting in this year with a 4.5 assist/turnover rate which has been one of his biggest detractors in his career. Once again, the math is below. The improvement from those numbers to when he came in the league is what we saw on the floor in the playoffs this year and is on the stat sheet as well.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3032979/seasontype/3/dennis-Schröder

Sorry didn't realize you were basing your assessment of Dennis based on a handful of playoff games. I am referring to his play overall. Look at his stats over the past 3 years and tell me that you see a player who has improved and is the type to build your franchise around or at least lead your franchise on the floor.

• 3pt%: 35% (2015) to 34% (2017)
• Assist to TO ratio: 2.1 (2015) to 1.9 (2017)
• Assist %: 34.6 (2015) to 35.5 (2017)
• Assists (per36): 7.5 (2015) to 7.2 (2017)
• Rebounds (per36): 3.9 (2015) to 3.6 (2017)
• Steals (per36): 1.2 (2015) to 1.1 (2017)
• Turnovers (per36): 3.6 (2015) to 3.7 (2017)
• Turnover %: 16.8 (2015) to 16.3 (2017)
• Win Shares (per48): 0.80 (2015) to 0.71 (2017)

The only real area that he's improved is in his FG shooting. I thought that he had made a lot of progress in shooting 3's but it appears that he has actually gotten a little worse... with the caveat that he is attempting a lot more so a slight decrease in efficiency isn't a big deal. 

I will say that I had forgotten about his contract extension so only having to pay him $16 million a year for the next 4 years makes me feel a little better... but that doesn't mean I believe he's the guy at PG. 

[Admin]

7 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Those are pretty big improvements.   So he's only improved his scoring and shooting?  I'd say he's improved his turnovers and I'm not seeing where  his passing has regressed in anyway.   I think if we had some guys who could actually shoot his assist numbers would reflect that.

As much as I hate to say it though I think your larger point is true.   I think Dennis is who he is.  Which is a really good PG but he's never going to be John Wall.   That's fantasy.   I like Dennis a lot and want him to remain a hawk but i also see him as our most valuable trade piece.   If he can be packaged for a real star i don't see why we wouldn't do it.   

See my last reply. Assists and turnovers are not really any better than his first year getting minutes. 

[Thomas]

Not sure why the playoffs this year are being ignored since they are the most important numbers, when it counts most that is. So here is what the link shows his entire career in the playoffs. Improvement every year in the playoffs. Assists pushing eight and assists/turnover ratio is 4.5 against the Wiz.  

 

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3032979/seasontype/3/dennis-Schröder

SEASON	TEAM	GP	GS	MIN	FGM-A	FG%	3PM-A	3P%	FTM-A	FT%	OR	DR	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
'13-'14	ATL	2	0	3.5	1.0-1.0	1.000	0.5-0.5	1.000	0.0-0.0	.000	0.0	1.0	1.0	0.0	0.0	0.0	0.5	0.0	2.5
'14-'15	ATL	16	0	18.1	3.5-9.1	.386	0.5-2.1	.235	1.5-1.8	.857	0.3	1.5	1.8	3.9	0.0	0.6	1.8	1.7	9.0
'15-'16	ATL	10	0	19.1	4.7-10.4	.452	1.2-3.5	.343	1.1-1.3	.846	0.6	1.3	1.9	3.6	0.1	0.4	2.4	2.1	11.7
'16-'17	ATL	6	6	35.2	8.3-18.3	.455	2.8-6.7	.425	5.2-6.2	.838	0.7	1.7	2.3	7.7	0.0	1.0	3.2	1.7	24.7
Career		34	6	20.6	4.6-10.6	.429	1.1-3.2	.345	1.9-2.3	.846	0.4	1.4	1.9	4.2	0.0	0.6	2.1	1.7	12.2

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, Dolfan23 said:

See my last reply. Assists and turnovers are not really any better than his first year getting minutes. 

But it's not like he regressed.  Considering that first year was a 60 win team that was top 3 in the league in 3 point percentage and last year we were one of the worst i'd say that assists holding steady was a friggin miracle.