Our new GM admits Warriors tanked for Barnes

[KB21]

Tanking is never the right way to build a team.  

[Lurker]

The only perfect world NBA team that has veteran talent roll into just as talented young guys is...you can count that on one hand, really just one finger and it's San Antonio.

 

Everywhere else has issues.

[CP61]

3 hours ago, HawkItus said:

I call bull.  More than the 60 win season?

 Maybe not on a game to game basis, but I'm much more invested in the team now than then. To be fair, the 60 win team is what made me a big basketball fan in the first place, but I still didn't watch every game even during the winning streak. Now I really want to watch every Hawks game because I just want to watch John Collins play. I spend much more time online looking at basketball stuff becaus I am so psyched for the future of this team. It's like the whole year is draft season which I think is the best time of the year. Even when I was watching like 20 basketball games a year I still wouldn't miss a pick of the draft.

[KB21]

22 minutes ago, CP61 said:

 Maybe not on a game to game basis, but I'm much more invested in the team now than then. To be fair, the 60 win team is what made me a big basketball fan in the first place, but I still didn't watch every game even during the winning streak. Now I really want to watch every Hawks game because I just want to watch John Collins play. I spend much more time online looking at basketball stuff becaus I am so psyched for the future of this team. It's like the whole year is draft season which I think is the best time of the year. Even when I was watching like 20 basketball games a year I still wouldn't miss a pick of the draft.

Well, you are going to have a blast over the next 5 years, because the draft is the only thing this organization has to look forward to over that time span.  

[JTB]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

Well, you are going to have a blast over the next 5 years, because the draft is the only thing this organization has to look forward to over that time span.  

Lol I guess ! It’s not like big time free agents ever came to Atlanta so the draft has kinda always been the only thing to look forward to.

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, JTB said:

Lol I guess ! It’s not like big time free agents ever came to Atlanta so the draft has kinda always been the only thing to look forward to.

I have no faith that a championship team can be built through the draft given what is available in the draft today.

[JTB]

33 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I have no faith that a championship team can be built through the draft given what is available in the draft today.

I honestly don’t disagree with you which is why I’m only for this purposely tank season for one year and hoping like hell we get lucky and find a stud player. But yeah can’t say I disagree! Too many franchises out there that it just hasn’t worked for. 

[KB21]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

I honestly don’t disagree with you which is why I’m only for this purposely tank season for one year and hoping like hell we get lucky and find a stud player. But yeah can’t say I disagree! Too many franchises out there that it just hasn’t worked for. 

The problem with this line of thinking is that when you tank, it's never for one season.  That player that can make this a one year proposition is not going to be drafted in 2018.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, JTB said:

I honestly don’t disagree with you which is why I’m only for this purposely tank season for one year and hoping like hell we get lucky and find a stud player. But yeah can’t say I disagree! Too many franchises out there that it just hasn’t worked for. 

What team has gone from mediocre to championship without stepping into the lottery?  Like where is your Grizzlies team with a ring (or even close)?  I can point to a ton of championship teams that lost a ton of games acquiring their studs.  Hell, GS built through the draft and won a ring without a single superstar teamup.  Getting the superstar teamup in Durant has pushed them to another level of dominance but we are using their exact model - dump the guys that are not part of your longterm plan (Monte Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Baron Davis, etc.) but keep the guys who could be and then lineup some lottery picks and look to strike big.

Nobody has wanted to play in GS in my lifetime until they built through the draft and hit homeruns with Klay, Curry, Dray, etc.  Then a superstar wanted to join them so he could hit the easy button on a ring.

I can guaran-freaking-tee you that no superstar was coming to play with Sap, Horford, Dwight, Joe Johnson, etc.

The only way we get the star power to attract difference-maker free agents (i.e., that can make teams contenders not help them lose in the 2nd round of the playoffs) is to nail draft picks.  Nobody is trading us an MVP level talent and no MVP level talent is signing with us.  The draft is it.

[Sothron]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

What team has gone from mediocre to championship without stepping into the lottery?  Like where is your Grizzlies team with a ring (or even close)?  I can point to a ton of championship teams that lost a ton of games acquiring their studs.  Hell, GS built through the draft and won a ring without a single superstar teamup.  Getting the superstar teamup in Durant has pushed them to another level of dominance but we are using their exact model - dump the guys that are not part of your longterm plan (Monte Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Baron Davis, etc.) but keep the guys who could be and then lineup some lottery picks and look to strike big.

Nobody has wanted to play in GS in my lifetime until they built through the draft and hit homeruns with Klay, Curry, Dray, etc.  Then a superstar wanted to join them so he could hit the easy button on a ring.

I can guaran-freaking-tee you that no superstar was coming to play with Sap, Horford, Dwight, Joe Johnson, etc.

The only way we get the star power to attract difference-maker free agents (i.e., that can make teams contenders not help them lose in the 2nd round of the playoffs) is to nail draft picks.  Nobody is trading us an MVP level talent and no MVP level talent is signing with us.  The draft is it.

 

If only one person would finally get that. We aren't winning titles here until we find a star in the lottery and then build a team around that. All the 40-50 win, second round at MOST exit year after year after year earned us exactly zero titles.

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, Sothron said:

 

If only one person would finally get that. We aren't winning titles here until we find a star in the lottery and then build a team around that. All the 40-50 win, second round at MOST exit year after year after year earned us exactly zero titles.

Exactly zero wins after the second round of the playoffs.

[KB21]

12 minutes ago, Sothron said:

 

If only one person would finally get that. We aren't winning titles here until we find a star in the lottery and then build a team around that. All the 40-50 win, second round at MOST exit year after year after year earned us exactly zero titles.

....and dang it, if we have to spend the next 10 years in the lottery to find that star, then that's what we should do.  You want to tank to get an Andrew Wiggins or a DeAngelo Russell when Kawhi Leonard and Giannis Antetokounmpo were drafted 15th overall and Nikola Jokic was a 2nd round pick.

Oh, and since 2010, there hasn't been a better player drafted in the top 3 picks than Leonard and Antetokounmpo.  

[TheFuzz]

My only revision to y'alls line of thinking is I think we coulda won a chip with that 60 win squad IF we were able to swing one more upgrade in the starting lineup, primarily a 3 that could score and board. I think you can get to championship level through trade/FA, Houston is doing it right now. No absolutes, it takes luck no matter which way we swing it. We do need assets though and we need to play our cap game better. We've picked a path, let's stick to it and play it smart.

Also, we have had success in FA recently. Millsap and Howard, whatever you think of them, were very good free agent signings, and I think we could've made a competitive offer for George this offseason. I'm not big on Paul George, so I'm not sure what that's worth, but it's something.

 

Edit: Couple other thoughts: The Warriors changed the game. That team is one of the best ever, and that squashed any hope we had of a title. The cap jump was troublesome too. Recently, we've had two big problems: loyalty to our players and bad cap management. I look at the Grizzlies pull contributors off the scrap heap and it doesn't seem impossible to me that, with some luck, we coulda kept things going and eventually gotten there. All water under the bridge now though.

Edited October 26, 2017 by TheFuzz

[AHF]

Sap was a FA success by any measure.  But how was Howard a FA success when the team disappointed, he ended up benched for large stretches by the end of the year and we had to pay someone to get a taker on his contract?

[Sothron]

8 hours ago, KB21 said:

....and dang it, if we have to spend the next 10 years in the lottery to find that star, then that's what we should do.  You want to tank to get an Andrew Wiggins or a DeAngelo Russell when Kawhi Leonard and Giannis Antetokounmpo were drafted 15th overall and Nikola Jokic was a 2nd round pick.

Oh, and since 2010, there hasn't been a better player drafted in the top 3 picks than Leonard and Antetokounmpo.  

It won't take 10 years. if nothing else you'd find enough decent NBA starters in the lottery coupled with free agency to get back to the playoff fodder team we used to be.

You seem obsessed with the idea the draft is incapable of producing star players when, hold on, every star player in the NBA was drafted. Nothing is a guarantee except one thing: no stars = no chance of winning a title.

We have this same argument with the same person over and over again. Give the GM a couple of seasons to see if he can find some guys and sign/trade for guys before you decide we are going to be stuck in the lottery for the next decade.

 

[AHF]

The other thing to add on Gianni's and Kawhi is we didn't have a high enough pick to get either one of them.  It sounds elementary but if the guy isn't on the board when you pick, you can't get him.  To have the most options on your board you need to pick earlier.

[hazer]

9 hours ago, AHF said:

What team has gone from mediocre to championship without stepping into the lottery?  Like where is your Grizzlies team with a ring (or even close)?  I can point to a ton of championship teams that lost a ton of games acquiring their studs.  Hell, GS built through the draft and won a ring without a single superstar teamup.  Getting the superstar teamup in Durant has pushed them to another level of dominance but we are using their exact model - dump the guys that are not part of your longterm plan (Monte Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Baron Davis, etc.) but keep the guys who could be and then lineup some lottery picks and look to strike big.

Nobody has wanted to play in GS in my lifetime until they built through the draft and hit homeruns with Klay, Curry, Dray, etc.  Then a superstar wanted to join them so he could hit the easy button on a ring.

I can guaran-freaking-tee you that no superstar was coming to play with Sap, Horford, Dwight, Joe Johnson, etc.

The only way we get the star power to attract difference-maker free agents (i.e., that can make teams contenders not help them lose in the 2nd round of the playoffs) is to nail draft picks.  Nobody is trading us an MVP level talent and no MVP level talent is signing with us.  The draft is it.

Post of the year. I don’t get why it’s so hard for some to grasp this...

[Sothron]

Some people struggle with having the patience to see how something works out.

[hazer]

9 hours ago, KB21 said:

....and dang it, if we have to spend the next 10 years in the lottery to find that star, then that's what we should do.  You want to tank to get an Andrew Wiggins or a DeAngelo Russell when Kawhi Leonard and Giannis Antetokounmpo were drafted 15th overall and Nikola Jokic was a 2nd round pick.

Oh, and since 2010, there hasn't been a better player drafted in the top 3 picks than Leonard and Antetokounmpo.  

It will not take 10 years. It didn’t take the Warriors 10 years. Frikin OAKLAND California. Who wanted to go there? NO ONE. They were a joke of a franchise for decades, like Sacramento is and the Clippers were.

And now they’re a dynasty, built in the draft, then a shittown who attracted a SUPERSTAR because of their drafting and winning. There was this guy named Schlenk who was a part of all of that. He’s with another team now using that exact same strategy.

I hear it’s a top 10 town in a top 10 market with great weather, great nightlife, hip hop and civil rights capital of the world, top 5 foodie town in the nation, Hollywood of the South (Y’allywood), home of TNT and NBATV, lower cost of living, kick-ass renovated arena and brand new state-of-the-art practice facility, great ownership situation with a coaching staff known league-wide for Hawks U and COY and Snyder/Atkinson coaching tree, and a place players LOVE to visit and live in the off-season. Not Oakland California or Cleveland Ohio. Hell, not Dallas or Houston Texas either.  Nor Okla-frikin-homa City Oklahoma.

If Schlenk drafts well and Hawks make it to the finals, a superstar will come to Atlanta. There were reasons they wouldn’t before, there will be reasons they would now. It won’t take 10 years to get to that level. Maybe 5.

Kawhi and Giannis? 2 of my favorites.  Bud was instrumental in trading for the former BEFORE he was a star, Ferry was drafting for the latter until Drew stole him from us 1 pick early. So personnel in this organization had the eye. Schlenk’s eye? So far John Collins at 19th. Keep that up with our 5 upcoming 1st rounders and we’ll be in great shape.

It’s going to exciting watching it develop. Not gonna take 10 years...

Edited October 26, 2017 by hazer

[Thomas]

3 minutes ago, hazer said:

And now they’re a dynasty, built in the draft, then a shittown who attracted a SUPERSTAR because of their drafting and winning. There was this guy named Schlenk who was a part of all of that. He’s with another team now using that exact same strategy.

Because of this scenario I'm having some confidence of strong results and not so far off either. We have three legit starters for his customized team moving forward in Collins, Prince and Dennis assuming he keeps all three which I think he will. Two more players and he has his starting five and then of course needs to build a much, much better rotation. Three to five years to battle for the ECF seems feasible to me. Anyway its going to be fun to watch because they already haul ass allover the court right now.